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Is the 'fat acceptance' movement a good thing?
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I'll be honest that I don't fully understand what is meant by "fat acceptance movement'. (never heard the term outside this site)
It is never okay to bully or mock someone for any reason. Period.
I also don't think it's very wise to accept being overly fat as a good thing.4 -
I think it's good in the fact that it promotes not being a total *kitten* to someone because they are fat. I mean really, how does someone else being fat affect me? Mind your own business people.
I also think it's bad, because you can NOT be healthy at any weight and gives some people the excuse to not make an effort to change. Being obese raises the likelihood of a lot of disease and medical issues, and I know people will jump on this and say "but I was 300 lbs and my doctor said I was totally healthy!", sure your blood work is fine but that is added stress to your heart and joints at the very least.
But again, it's not my place to tell some stranger that they need to lose weight.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Conflating unhealthy obesity is ok with judging another human being is mostly what I see these days.
IMO, unhealthy obesity is unhealthy and people should (and mostly are, I think) be aware of that. Is that "okay"? I don't know what it means in this context. Plenty of people are okay with unhealthy lifestyles for themselves, and that doesn't make them not okay, in my eyes.
We probably shouldn't judge (if one applies a Christian perspective, anyway), but we do, everyone does, about all kinds of things. IMO, judging doesn't really matter, but we should accept others as they are, not treat them badly because they are overweight, not fail to see them as human beings, etc. Of course, I don't think this has anything to do with fat acceptance, it's basic politeness and caring about other people, being a decent person.
I fully agree, but I think my statement came across other than what I intended, or is just being read that way. I am a Christian, and as such, I'm fully aware that I have far too many faults of my own to ever dare judge or lecture someone else about theirs.
What I'm referring to are those times when an obese person takes exception to the suggestion that losing weight may be healthier for them, and construing that statement as judgemental when it may simply be an expression of honest concern. But judging someone's value as a human being? I don't have the right to do that.
Just because intent is hard to read here, I want to make it clear that I wasn't reading you as saying something different from what I was -- I wasn't 100% sure what you were saying, but saw it as more of a conversation, where we might be totally agreeing. Was not at all saying you were judging others.
I do think talking to someone else about their weight is a minefield and best rarely done, unless it's someone really close to you or you are a doctor or other in a field where it comes up. Where I'm coming from is that when I was fat I KNEW it (I also thought I was fat when I wasn't -- when I grew up and even the social circles I'm in now, obesity is pretty rare and I still see a huge stigma to it, I think this does vary some). I also knew I should lose the weight, that it was unhealthy. Having other people tell me that, even in a caring way, would have been counterproductive (I was someone who raised it first, though, to head it off, which wasn't wildly healthy either).
I think if we are talking about a spouse or child or something there may be caring ways to open a conversation (not "you know this is unhealthy" but about getting fit or something -- seems really tough and hard to do, but in that context sure). But with a friend? A co-worker? I'd assume they know and may or may not be working on it (I find that it's something most people I know think, regardless of how heavy they are).
But if they open the door by saying "how did you lose the weight" or "I really should lose, but don't know how" or "nothing works for me," I'll definitely try to meet them there and see if they are interested in what I have to say, my encouragement.
I will also say that when I lost weight the biggest motivator, probably, was seeing people I knew lose weight -- kept me from thinking it wasn't possible when I saw it (and I'm competitive and thought if they can so can I!). I also find others talking about athletic stuff or going to the gym is often inspirational.
(So maybe an analogy to that quote often attributed to St. Francis? -- preach, and if necessary use words.)
On the rest, I'm sober too, I see some differences but want to think through how I address that. Part of it is that the harm is genuinely different and the denial factor normally is, and that I know when I was drinking I wanted to stop but had no clue how (I don't think it was someone confronting me that did it, though -- my reaction to being confronted was to lie and try to hide things better and it was being at the absolute end that allowed me to change, I think). I think here too it's really possible to confront people in a damaging way so should be done carefully. But one difference is that I think there's a huge relief in seeing you aren't the only one, others have been there too, there are options -- whether they necessarily work or not, of course, as that depends on the person. With a fat person, they know they are fat, fatness can't be hidden. They know if someone they know has lost weight (whereas you usually don't know if someone is a recovering alcoholic). They've probably heard what you have to say over and over from everywhere in our society. It's not like they can be ready and not hearing the message, so raising the topic seems more likely to be met with humiliation/anger/shame than relief -- they know what you have to say, I think. (Heh, so maybe I went ahead and addressed it!)
One way of confronting that worked for me, with weight, although not until about a year later -- I was bitching to a friend about being depressed, being fat, etc., and she just said "if you don't like what you weigh why don't you lose weight." Sounds dumb but for me that was a lightbulb -- aha! I could, couldn't I. Even though I didn't immediately seeing not doing it as a choice was ultimately really helpful for me.2 -
robertw486 wrote: »I'm more into the human acceptance thing. Humans are flawed, generally all of us, and the flaws vary. But to accept flaws to the extent that it's expected for nobody to judge is a slippery slope. Even the laws in society are generally based on what is judged as a moral, safety, or freedom line of some sort.
When we reach a point where we cheer people on for unhealthy practices, whether it be overeating, smoking, alcohol or drug abuse, etc, we are reaching a point where we are contributing to allowing that free pass. Trying to decide where to draw the line between true well intended pointing out facts or offering advice and when it turns into "shaming" is yet another slope, even more slippery.
Good post!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on humans being motivated by status such as pack animals do. Do we, or are we motivated with our physical "status" to the point that we behave in a pack mentality? In other words, what might be status for one pack - say being overweight and accepting that within the pack - may be quite different in another pack that considers their status to not be overweight. Hence, some of the cheering for unhealthy practices within certain "packs".
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trigden1991 wrote: »Motorsheen wrote: »I'm winning to bet that HAES members send their kids to school packing Pop Tarts.
But they're not healthy.....
Only the frosted ones....3 -
Just an FYI up front - nothing was ignored here, simply snipped for ease of replying
Gotchalemurcat12 wrote: »Just because intent is hard to read here, I want to make it clear that I wasn't reading you as saying something different from what I was -- I wasn't 100% sure what you were saying, but saw it as more of a conversation, where we might be totally agreeing. Was not at all saying you were judging others.
I do agree with this. I just see it ( as you probably do to) as a case by case decision. I hope my post didn't come across painting me as a crusaderI do think talking to someone else about their weight is a minefield and best rarely done
For sureI will also say that when I lost weight the biggest motivator, probably, was seeing people I knew lose weight -- kept me from thinking it wasn't possible when I saw it (and I'm competitive and thought if they can so can I!). I also find others talking about athletic stuff or going to the gym is often inspirational.
That's a great analogy, and very applicable here. You've got me thinking, I like that lol.(So maybe an analogy to that quote often attributed to St. Francis? -- preach, and if necessary use words.)
All excellent points here (And aOn the rest, I'm sober too, I see some differences but want to think through how I address that. Part of it is that the harm is genuinely different and the denial factor normally is, and that I know when I was drinking I wanted to stop but had no clue how (I don't think it was someone confronting me that did it, though -- my reaction to being confronted was to lie and try to hide things better and it was being at the absolute end that allowed me to change, I think). I think here too it's really possible to confront people in a damaging way so should be done carefully. But one difference is that I think there's a huge relief in seeing you aren't the only one, others have been there too, there are options -- whether they necessarily work or not, of course, as that depends on the person. With a fat person, they know they are fat, fatness can't be hidden. They know if someone they know has lost weight (whereas you usually don't know if someone is a recovering alcoholic). They've probably heard what you have to say over and over from everywhere in our society. It's not like they can be ready and not hearing the message, so raising the topic seems more likely to be met with humiliation/anger/shame than relief -- they know what you have to say, I think. (Heh, so maybe I went ahead and addressed it!)
for the sobriety ) but I think I see the disconnect. You're using the word "Confront" which, given my stance on approaching people about uncomfortable issues, is something I strive not to do. Maybe it's a gift, maybe a curse at times but I have an ability to approach people about a number of uncomfortable issues without hitting their defensive triggers. Maybe it comes from working with the kids groups I do, I don't know. But the only time I was ever truly confrontational was with my own step-father, and that so & so deserved everything he got.
It doesn't sound dumb at all, not even a little. It's often the simplest message that carries the most weight.One way of confronting that worked for me, with weight, although not until about a year later -- I was bitching to a friend about being depressed, being fat, etc., and she just said "if you don't like what you weigh why don't you lose weight." Sounds dumb but for me that was a lightbulb -- aha! I could, couldn't I. Even though I didn't immediately seeing not doing it as a choice was ultimately really helpful for me. 2 -
No it's not a good thing. Not when there's still people starving in this world. I say this as a 300lb-er myself, it feels obscene and an insult to make out like its a good thing.
Plus there's no ignoring the vastly higher risks of many conditions and diseases.6 -
No it's not a good thing. Not when there's still people starving in this world. I say this as a 300lb-er myself, it feels obscene and an insult to make out like its a good thing.
Plus there's no ignoring the vastly higher risks of many conditions and diseases.
An overweight person is no more responsible for starving people than an extremely active person who eats additional food to fuel their (completely optional) activity. Someone who is consuming 500 extra calories a day to train for a marathon isn't better, morally, than someone who eats 500 extra calories a day to support excess body mass.
Yet I don't think many of us would say that training for a marathon is a bad thing. It's just a thing.
People are starving because of complex intersections of economics, politics, conflict, and logistics. If someone who has good and reliable access to food turns down food because they are concerned about other people starving, it's going to do very little to get food to the areas of the world where it needs to be to prevent starvation. While there are things that we can do to help (and I encourage people to do them), reducing our own consumption of food isn't really one of them.14 -
"Fat acceptance", as initially conceived, was about the overfat bringing to light and trying to change discriminative practices in pay, job acquisition, job security, promotions, and so forth.
At its fringes - which unfortunately are the most vocal group - "small fats" are somehow more privileged that "large fats" and any attempt to lose weight by their proclaimed members is seen as a betrayal of the highest order. Stores not carrying things in sizes of 20+ for women's clothing is seen as discrimination and complaints that clothing for larger people costs more - both of which don't match with the reality that there's less demand for wildly extreme sizes on any spectrum.
Mind, I'm a guy with a 28-inch inseam; last time I searched Amazon I found a total of fourteen selections in my waist and inseam sizes, most of which started at over $100. That's not discrimination, that's the reality of the marketplace for out-of-normal range clothing.
This fringe is little different from the pro-anorexia folks, and just as misguided. It's morphed into the notion that actual physical form doesn't matter at all as far as health, attractiveness, and a host of other things, including lauding lifestyle choices that are clearly self-destructive; if you disagree, you're clearly 'thin privileged' and 'a troll', both of which I've been repeatedly called by this same loudmouth fringe when asking what are apparently awkward reality-based questions about the movement.10 -
I feel there is a huge difference between accepting and excusing yourself. I think it's hugely important for people to acknowledge their body and understand the state of their body. Being overweight is unhealthy, there really are not exceptions to that rule. However, should people be ostracized for this? No, that's silly. So accept who you are and acknowledge the change you may need. We all need to change if it's not weight than something else and there is no shame in that. Never stop working to better yourself.9
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I feel there is a huge difference between accepting and excusing yourself. I think it's hugely important for people to acknowledge their body and understand the state of their body. Being overweight is unhealthy, there really are not exceptions to that rule. However, should people be ostracized for this? No, that's silly. So accept who you are and acknowledge the change you may need. We all need to change if it's not weight than something else and there is no shame in that. Never stop working to better yourself.
Well said 0 -
Obviously people should treat others with kindly, but accepting any unhealthy lifestyle such as shooting heroin, speeding, obesity, etc is neither loving, wise or courageous. However people already know that they are over fat.1
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My wife is a Dialysis Nurse you should know that the majority of people tied to a dialysis machine 4 hours 3 times a week are obese. I would say the majority of the majority are morbidity obese. Ages between 50-60 as most do not make it past 60 due to there lifestyle choices. But yet our health (medicare or medicaid) care is paying for those choices. Not to mention the other health issues obese individuals normally have related to their life choices.5
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There is a difference between acceptance of body types, and the promotions thereof. I do think its possible to exhibit sexiness and exude confidence in an overweight body. But the current promotions seem to go further- inspiring people to feel sexy and welcome not in spite of their bodies, but BECAUSE of their bodies. That Whitney- she's on tv celebrating her size. And since she got a show to highlight it, she only gained weight. She wasn't promoting her inner self and asking people to look past her shell. She was and is promoting her weight. That is dangerous and not something we should encourage.
Going further, and speaking for myself, I can see where the push for total acceptance has not been good. When I started gaining weight in my mid-20s, I knew I should be more attentive to my choices. But in the back of my head, I said to myself- you're the same good, smart, confident person regardless of your body. In a way, I saw myself as being somehow less liberal, less self-empowered if I watched my weight. Like I was daring the world to accept me regardless of my body.
The above isn't mean to shower myself in excuses or move blame. The blame for gaining so much weight rested with me and I own that. But I think its important that we explore why people let themselves go there. For me, the feeling of saying FU to social norms was liberating, and this movement empowered me even more. So is the answer the opposite? Tough love? No, I don't think so either. I think the best thing we can do is to promote health. Promote education and facts. And never promote something unhealthy in the way Whitney whoever is doing.1 -
RaeBeeBaby wrote: »RaeBeeBaby wrote: »The number of obese people on disability because they can no longer work (or never worked) has skyrocketed. Therefore, taxpayers are supporting them through monthly disability payments, SNAP (food stamp) benefits, and housing subsidies.
And here you make the libertarian's argument against a socialized wellfare state for them; that government and "social" control of individual choices occurs when government has control of the purse strings, and that people feel justified in taking that control.
That said, these claims really need to be substantiated.
Having worked with Health and Human Services, and both federal and state medicaid programs as a policy analyst for over 35 years, I've had firsthand experience watching the numbers increase over the years, the costs escalate, and the co-morbid conditions associated with obesity grow. I do believe the fat acceptance movement will contribute to this alarming trend.
Since you asked, here's some light reading to substantiate:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/obesity.html
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/documents/obesityFactsheet2010.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10696282
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&ved=0ahUKEwiBs7b-iLPRAhWM0FQKHf3tCRoQFghuMBA&url=https://www.mathematica-mpr.com/download-media?MediaItemId=%7B654E332E-D920-4FF7-8E20-48E3DA2E7C85%7D&usg=AFQjCNEmgmYCtxWZcvsGmJ8xnzV0yGrHPg&sig2=SvhM_slR6t5lA9PNndQUNA&cad=rja
And one of the best reports on Obesity in America. (and YES, I have read the entire thing)
http://healthyamericans.org/assets/files/TFAH-2015-ObesityReport-final.22.pdf
None of this substantiates your claim that"] The number of obese people on disability because they can no longer work (or never worked) has skyrocketed.
The best it does is says that more obese people are on disability. But what you claimed makes it sound like obesity itself has caused the disability. That is unsubstantiated.
Your odds of becoming disabled before you retire are about 1 in 3. And some of the causes of disability might surprise you.
Arthritis
Back pain
Heart disease
Cancer
Depression
Diabetes
From this article:
http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/features/top-causes-disability
All the issues listed (with possible exceptions of cancer and depression) are made worse by excess weight.4 -
I don't accept fat kids and their parents. If you're 18 years old and decide that you want to be fat and unhealthy, okay. Go for it. But if you were never really given a choice and grew up having chicken nugs and soda crammed down your throat, that's fukd. We can not accept those parents. We need to start giving people a chance and unfortunately it is heavily divided among class lines.7
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No, the Fat Acceptance Movement is not a good thing.
A better name would be the "Body Positive Movement" or something along those lines if their message to send was body positivity.
With a name like "Fat Acceptance Movement" it already sounds like a group who is pro Overweight/Obese which doesn't need any acceptance when 2/3 people are overweight or obese in the United States. Not just the USA, but the increase in weight is rising globally.0 -
To use a religious saying : Love the sinner but hate the sin.
A morbidly obese person should be treated with dignity and respect, but that doesn't mean you have to support that one aspect of who they are. You don't have to reject the whole person because of one area of conflict.9 -
I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.0
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candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.7
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