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Is the 'fat acceptance' movement a good thing?
Replies
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The opposite of acceptance is not hatred. If being overweight threatens quality of health or health risk, there is no reason to accept that. However, all people have a right to be treated with compassion and there is no place for judgement or shaming of fat (or thin, or whatever minority you are) in a healthy community/society.3
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I feel like the "fat" movement in my mind is being 15-30 pounds overweight, and learning to love yourself and not hate your body etc - a good thing in my book. But normalizing being 100+ pounds overweight is irresponsible. I understand there are health condition that make you gain weight - you can love yourself and still know you are unhealthy. two very different things.6
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janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Legislation has been attempted to be introduced in one Canadian province along the lines of the granting the obese special privilege.
Which one? And what are they trying to do? Do you have a link to this (please)? I'm curious.
Thanks.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-liberals-weight-human-rights-1.3864788
From the article: "Lindsey Mazur, a dietitian, said some overweight people she works with are being denied surgeries and other care unless they lose weight first. In the workforce, some people are losing out on promotions because of their weight, she added."
This sounds like they want equal access to medical treatment and job opportunities, not special privileges.
That promotion story was sketchy as all get out in the first place, imo. It's straight out of a tumblr fantasy.
How exactly do you prove that a fat person was passed over for a job promotion?
Medical treatment? See the post above yours. They want treatment that is not safe at their weight. They want treatment that they don't fit the equipment for.
I have read countless tales on reddit from nurses and doctors who have cared for the very, very obese (think over 400 pounds) who have explained in clinical detail exactly why it's these services aren't provided and why weight loss needs to happen.
It's not discrimination. It's a safety issue.
I imagine you'd prove it the same way one would prove an age, racial, or gender discrimination case. The fact that discrimination may be challenging to prove isn't a justification for ignoring it when it is happening.
If someone wants treatment that isn't safe at their weight, that's one thing. But I know personally know someone who was denied treatment for a skin condition due to weight -- the doctor said there wasn't any point in treating the condition in someone who wasn't taking care of themselves. The treatment for the skin condition wasn't riskier due to weight (my friend got a second opinion and was able to get his treatment). I am sure the anecdotes you've read on reddit are accurate for the experiences of those recounting them. But consider that there may be other experiences, ones that you aren't seeing on reddit.
Please don't mistake me for advocating for something that I'm not. If a procedure isn't safe for someone due to an underlying condition that should be taken into account.
Everyone has experiences with idiot doctors. They don't need protection under the law to pursue a second opinion.
Legislating this will increase medical costs, insurance costs and is not necessary for these cases like your friend. I can assure you that the thinking of the movement and the push behind this legislation is thus:
Weight is neutral. Body size is something that comes in diversity, just as skin color does. Society needs to ebmrace that and accommodate that.
For further reading, please see this web site. While their mission statement gives lip service to ending discrimination, you need to look under the hood as to what they consider to be discrimination.
https://www.sizediversityandhealth.org/
Legislating for this kind of stuff is a slippery slope, because I believe it would promote the backwards thinking that underlies the Fat Acceptance movement regarding obesity.
As I stated earlier, this is not the way to address the issues these people are facing.
I appreciate that you wish to educate me, but I'm acquainted with the goals and perspective of the Fat Acceptance movement.
Yes, people can seek second opinions. But should doctors be denying medical care to people based on their weight (when the weight itself isn't a factor that will make a surgery/treatment more risky)? I have an opinion on this, you may have a different opinion. My opinion isn't based in ignorance of the situation.
Writing someone a prescription for a skin condition isn't "embracing" a condition, it's practicing medicine. Why should a fat person have to go to doctor after doctor to get adequate treatment? That medical professionals should provide a basic standard of care isn't "backwards thinking" in my view.
Weight isn't neutral in all cases. But if a doctor would write a prescription for a thin person with a skin condition and refuse to write the same prescription for a larger person strictly due to weight (again, not potential complications or risks, but just a feeling about fat people) . . . that's weight playing a role that it shouldn't play.
Same with jobs. If someone is passed over for a promotion or refused a job simply due to their weight and not their ability to do a job, that's weight playing a role that it shouldn't play. Some of the most competent and impressive people I work with are overweight or obese. In many jobs, it just isn't a relevant factor. Why shouldn't weight be neutral in those cases?
If that's backwards thinking, then I'll be backward.
I'm not saying that bias doesn't exist. There are definitely doctors (in fact I believe there's hard data out there on this, I'm pretty sure I've seen a statistic quoted on it) out there who admit that they have trouble with obese people, and sometimes it's with good reason, because they're often not compliant with their own health care, much in the way smokers are. The answer to people who continued to smoke against medical advice wasn't to accommodate smokers, it was to find ways to deal with the smoking problem. I feel the same way about obesity.
I don't believe that we can legislated against every bias people encounter, and especially in this case since it's a self-inflicted condition that a person often chooses to remain in. I think this is a slippery slope society should not start down and that there are other avenues for people wronged by idiots can pursue.
That makes sense -- thanks for explaining.
My mom is a nurse-practitioner and she says that the majority of the problems she encounters (she deals with the chronically ill) are related to lack of compliance. It can be really frustrating for professionals trying to do their best then to feel like the patients themselves (or the responsible caretakers) aren't even trying to meet them halfway.
The vast majority of medical practitioners would have the same view as your mother. Before anyone weighs in on the state of healthcare I always recommend they spend a week (this is all it would take) working in a free clinic to see what the real problems are.
Most of us volunteer our time waiting for that one patient in fifty who actually needs help and will listen - when that moment comes it is magic.5 -
i dont know about fat acceptance but being rude to someone who is fat is not necessary. people take liberties and do stuff like pat your stomach and make comments. Here is the most outrageous thing that happened to me. In high school i was 180 and at age 50 (when my sister died) i was 350 (now 240 and going down) I was at my sisters funeral and a woman that was a "friend" of the family that i had not seen in years walks up to me, looks me up and down and says "what happened to you?" That is the truth i swear.1
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I don't think anyone else has any business "accepting" someone or not. Poo on you if you judge me by my appearance and not the content of my character. I don't think anyone should be mean or rude to anyone, fat or scrawny, redhead or blonde, blue eyed or brown. I am not for you to "accept" or "condemn". Deal with your own issues before you try and "help" me tackle mine, LOL!
Personally, I am trying to lose weight because I am dissatisfied with my appearance. I couldn't give a fig what anyone else thinks and if anyone is rude enough to let me know their opinion, I show them the same courtesy.3 -
I don't think anyone else has any business "accepting" someone or not. Poo on you if you judge me by my appearance and not the content of my character. I don't think anyone should be mean or rude to anyone, fat or scrawny, redhead or blonde, blue eyed or brown. I am not for you to "accept" or "condemn". Deal with your own issues before you try and "help" me tackle mine, LOL!
Personally, I am trying to lose weight because I am dissatisfied with my appearance. I couldn't give a fig what anyone else thinks and if anyone is rude enough to let me know their opinion, I show them the same courtesy.
I judge everyone. Actually everyone judges everyone...I mean your judging people who judge people.
It doesn't change my life one bit if being fat is acceptable or not. I don't care unless it offends my eyes by what I see. shivers... ill just look away and make fun in secret.4 -
I agree that everyone judges others. It's in our nature. Hopefully everyone doesn't make fun. That's not cool.3
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Not accepting people for the way they appear, race, religion, sex, etc, for any reason, is prejudice, and it is wrong.
No justification for this. Not anyone's responsibility to judge anyone else. It shows immaturity, lack of compassion, and bad manners. My opinion.1 -
SingingSingleTracker wrote: »Hey
First off, I know this is a bit of a contentious topic, so I hope we can keep things civil!
I'm on the fence about the fat acceptance thing. And, at nearly 300lbs, I don't really want to spend too long on anything, especially a fence!!
Part of me thinks that fat acceptance is a tad bit dangerous in its attempts to normalise what is, essentially (although I am aware that I'm generalising here) , an unhealthy lifestyle. I'd also, although cautiously, argue that, while variation in weight is of course normal, openly stating that being 100lb+ over a 'normal' weight is anything other than a health concern is irresponsible. (Although I'm not saying that being ashamed is appropriate either.)
That said however, i guess it has many benefits... for instance I don't think a person that smokes will get nearly as much crap from people as an obese person. Both have made choices that impact their health... but only one is outwardly visible and is used to bully and mock people who, let's face it, likely use food as a coping mechanism.... pretty crappy given that there coping mechanism only affects themselves (as opposed to someone that acts like an arsehole to relieve stress etc.). Plus, maybe you need to be in a position where you feel like you're worth something before you can allow yourself to hope for better (although I don't know if anyone fully into fat acceptance would agree with the use of the word "better"...)
What do you guys think??
Sounds like you have some things to work out yet in your psyche.
What exactly is wrong with her "psyche"? Seems to me like she hit it pretty spot on. As a former smoker I can attest to everything that she pointed out about smokers vs fat people.
It's very rude of you to attack someone personally without even an ounce of reasoning to back it up.5 -
I'm not on the fence with this, I'm over it. I absolutely refuse to promote fat-acceptance. If you're 100+ lbs overweight, you're not healthy. I am in that category, so I would know. I don't have diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol or any of that awesome stuff that comes with obesity. But I do have a bmi over 40 and eventually the weight that I'm carrying WILL someday take its toll on my heart if I don't do something. It's not an if, it's a when.
So while I agree that no one has a right to publicly shame anyone, I think it's very irresponsible to promote fat acceptance. I wouldn't say a thing to a stranger about their weight nor would I treat someone differently based on that either. But if it's a family member or close friend, I will definitely express my concern and make it clear that I'm there to help in any way that I can. I do this for my own daughters. I won't sugarcoat it for them. I make it very clear the cards that our heredity will deal us. So while they're fit and active now (like I once was), it's something that they will have to pay attention to the rest of their lives. Because the second they stop, they will end up like me, or worse, my mother. She's currently in the hospital waiting for a miracle! She's an obese diabetic amputee with less than 20% of her heart pumping and less than 40% lung capacity. She needs to have the rest of her leg amputated to stop the spread of infection that is in her stump. However, she won't make it off the table. So short of a miracle or some hospital that is experienced enough to take the risk of surgery, she has a matter of weeks, maybe months if she's lucky.
This is a woman who spent my childhood preaching "love yourself the way you are", "you only live once, live it up - eat, drink, be merry" - and look what that got her. She's 57.
So no, let's NOT promote fat-acceptance. Let's promote being healthy. Healthy comes in a variety of shapes and sizes.15 -
I think it's crap. It's basically saying "I am a failure, I don't want to improve and please don't criticize me".5
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Well I think people who don't spend at least an hour a day practicing an instrument or developing creativity, and at least 4 hours a week volunteering in their community, and who don't read at least two books a month, or speak at least two languages are failing to live up to the social compact where they should do everything they can to improve themselves for the community.
And that makes them people who should expect not to hold jobs where they interact with people and certainly not be paid as much as those who bother to live up to my arbitrary expectations. They are poor rules models for their children and bad public citizens.
How dare they think their life choices are adequate or be hurt when other people judge them. They should get a grip and realize everyone judges people when they make bad decisions.
#satire9 -
fattymcrunnerpants wrote: »
I'll never in my life forget what a surgeon said to me after removing part of my thyroid. I had gone to him as I had a tumor growing on it. While I was in the hospital he told me that he hadn't made an effort to hide the large scar because I was "Fat, unattractive and didn't deserve to have the scar hidden". Surgeons USEUALLY try to cut along the neck folds to hide an obvious scar. I made a complaint to the hospital board but since I'm not a protected class nothing happened. That kind of behavior is not OK at all.
Similarly, I have a friend whose husband is a surgeon. Apparently when fat women have c-sections they don't put nearly the same amount of effort into making the stitches (and subsequent scar) look good, as they do for thin women. Their reason was that a fat woman probably wouldn't wear a bikini anyway, so why bother.0 -
Well this actually happened to me at Disney World. A female and her kids got on the transportation bus. Myself and my brother in law, were both sitting and we both got up to let the female sit down. She chose his spot (which was beside me). I was at the end of the seat (bench seats) and she sat to my left. Every time the bus driver stopped she slid into me and pressed me into the end of the bench. And she was well over 250lbs. Not discriminating, but it was an uncomfortable ride all the way to our hotel.I think it's good in the fact that it promotes not being a total *kitten* to someone because they are fat. I mean really, how does someone else being fat affect me?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Sorry but lve had this happen to me before also and the person was of perfectly normal weight as am l. I think buses tend to push people, no seat belts and all. Now airplanes are another story.1 -
...I don't think a person that smokes will get nearly as much crap from people as an obese person...
I personally think smoking is the worst. It's filthy and vile. And I judge the hell out of smokers. (Sorry, not sorry.)
I'd rather sit next to an obese person than sit next to a smoker (either actively smoking or just sitting there reeking of it) any day. I'm not sure that's a good comparison. I would definitely give more crap to a smoker. Just sayin'.2 -
RaeBeeBaby wrote: »
And one of the best reports on Obesity in America. (and YES, I have read the entire thing)
http://healthyamericans.org/assets/files/TFAH-2015-ObesityReport-final.22.pdf
From the report:
"Adolescents with metabolic syndrome
— a composite of obesity compo-
nents — have significantly lower
overall intelligence scores, including
in math and spelling, and have lower
mental flexibility and attention spans
than adolescents without metabolic
syndrome."
"The majority of overweight children (81
percent boys and 71 percent of girls) be-
lieve they are about the correct weight."
"Obese adults spend 42 percent more
on direct healthcare costs than adults
who are a healthy weight.
Per capita healthcare costs for severely or
morbidly obese adults (BMI >40) are 81
percent higher than for healthy weight
adults.
In 2000, around $11 billion
was spent on medical expenditures for
morbidly obese U.S. adults."
Terrifying!
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I was thinking about this the other day. I grew up in a family where obesity was a norm. I was obese my whole life until recent years, and I am still overweight now. The obesity in my family has resulted in ill health - physical and mental - and limits life choices. It's not seem thing I can 'accept' as ok. But nor would I 'accept' alcoholism, diabetes or manic depression if they were issues for me or my family. The shaming that goes in in society, however, is body shaming, not fat shaming. And people's bodies are shamed for being fat, puffy, scarred, skinny, short, tall, not tanned, spotty etc etc. Until we stop focussing on appearance, reading magazines full of polished, airbrushed celebrities, avidly following before and after photos as *the* evidence of a new healthy lifestyle, body shaming will continue. How about a body acceptance movement?1
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Everybody has the right to live their lives free from ridicule and abuse, nobody should be pointed at and/or subjected to shaming, ridicule and general "Ew!" treatment on account of their size.
However, what I'm seeing with the fat acceptance movement is that it is becoming an entitlement movement full of hypocrisy, with plenty of hate for slimmer women and a complete lack of empathy for anybody male who happens to be overweight.
Health At Every Size - unless your size is less than mine, by which point you become a 'shallow, stuck-up, anorexic, skinny 12 year-old boy"
Body Positivity - unless your size is less than mine and you will be subject to a whole heap of body negativity (see above)
Rejecting a woman on the dating scene because of her weight = fatphobia. Rejecting a man on the dating scene because of his height = perfectly natural preference. Not to mention that the men are still expected to be ripped and shredded. See any fat acceptance dating meme and it's always an overweight woman with a man built like a Calvin Klein model. Where's the love for the fatter guys? So much for acceptance! Obese woman = curvy, BBW, plus sized, etc. Obese (or even overweight) man = just plain fat!
I can't be onboard any movement that plagues itself with hypocrisy, thinly-veiled hate and an overbearing sense of entitlement.7 -
Just my two cents, but I think this false in shades of grey rather than being a clear cut thing. I believe strongly in body positivity for all shapes and sizes. And loving yourself as you are can be a strong motivator to bettering yourself. Think of it this way: People who hate their bodies and can't find ways to love themselves as they are will more than likely be the same people who fail at their attempts of change it. And I think that it ties back to trying to change for the wrong reasons. I think change has to come from a positive and healthy place.
Though some people can take it too far, just like too much of any sort of good thing can be bad.3 -
MandaB9780 wrote: »
What exactly is wrong with her "psyche"? Seems to me like she hit it pretty spot on. As a former smoker I can attest to everything that she pointed out about smokers vs fat people.
It's very rude of you to attack someone personally without even an ounce of reasoning to back it up.
Hi, Manda.
The mind, soul, or spirit, as opposed to the body. In psychology, the psyche is the center of thought, feeling, and motivation, consciously and unconsciously directing the body's reactions to its social and physical environment.
The OP stated she was on the fence about the subject. She raised valid points for both sides of the fence, yet has not reached a conclusion for herself.
Hence my comment confirming that she has yet to work it out in her mind.
If that's a rude attack...
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Shaming and outwardly criticizing people does not motivate them to adjust behaviors, which could potentially help them lose weight. So, like most everyone else, I'm against body shaming. Overweight people know they are overweight (at least adults do) in most cases, and the vast majority (even FA types as far as I can tell) would like to be healthy (they may not admit that this involves losing weight, but the process of adjusting to more healthy behaviors has fairly consistent outcomes).
My opinion is that we should stop shaming/lecturing and instead we should offer accurate information that isn't morality-based. Stop showing people the food pyramid, stop pretending all fat is "bad" (both a moral judgment and incorrect nutritional judgment), stop pushing weight loss pills and other quick fixes. If we change the "weight loss" paradigm so that is about life long adjustments and personal goals and not about moral judgments and the number on the scale, in my opinion that is the best way to offer body positivity and accept everyone right where they are at.
No one should feel bad about themselves because of their weight, but we should all be motivated to enjoy life, which is lost sustainable through an everyday goal of doing "your best" in all areas of life. Some days that means going to the gym or joining a community soccer league, other days that means taking a nap and reading a book. The best way each of us can aspire toward health/weight loss or whatever else our goals may be, is to have accurate information, and I believe much of our obesity issues would be reduced if false and outdated information and education styles (like lecturing w/moral judgments) were revised and replaced.
Parents shouldn't think their kids will be healthy based on a diet of chicken, with two veggie sides when that meals is chicken nuggets, corn and French fries. Mandarin oranges soaked in sugary juice does not constitute a healthy fruit serving. But they are pedaled this information by food corporations, scientific studies that are funded by corporations (conflict of interest abound) and outdated information that is taught throughout school and even on college-level nutrition courses.
As a sidenote and step away from my tangent, obesity can be a serious medical condition or can lead to serious medical conditions which are very costly.... but exercising to the point of needing joint replacements and early-onset arthritis etc are also self-inflicted and quite costly.. so I'm not sure if I can hold anger toward a group for hiking medical expenses... I have epilepsy from a head injury I sustained while playing sports. My medical bills are a burden on society, and I would not likely have this disorder if it weren't for a decision that I made to play sports. Should I feel bad about this? Should I feel guilty?2 -
megdnoorman wrote: »My opinion is that we should stop shaming/lecturing and instead we should offer accurate information that isn't morality-based.
Are we actually shaming/lecturing? I don't think so, as a public policy.Stop showing people the food pyramid, stop pretending all fat is "bad" (both a moral judgment and incorrect nutritional judgment), stop pushing weight loss pills and other quick fixes.
Don't know who "we" is, but the food pyramid is outdated and no longer used, and MyPlate and the current dietary guidelines don't say that all fat is bad (healthwise or otherwise) or promote chicken nuggets or whatever (which have fat, usually). Public policy doesn't push weight loss pills, etc. -- quick fixes of all sorts are the provision of the diet industry and the idea that there's a way to lose that requires no actual work, time, sacrifice, which of course lots of people want to believe.If we change the "weight loss" paradigm so that is about life long adjustments and personal goals and not about moral judgments and the number on the scale, in my opinion that is the best way to offer body positivity and accept everyone right where they are at.
Agree with this.2 -
It might be more productive to simply side-step the issue of whether it is good or bad and just focus on improving ourselves for the time being. Worry about the rest of society some other time.
In the words of Michael Jackson, "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make that change."3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
Are we actually shaming/lecturing? I don't think so, as a public policy.
I was referring to society in general, and I think many overweight people are shamed or lectured about their weight, and that shame/lecturing occurs from doctors, family/friends, television shows about diet/weight loss etc. I'm not referring to any specific policy but to society in general.lemurcat12 wrote: »Don't know who "we" is, but the food pyramid is outdated and no longer used, and MyPlate and the current dietary guidelines don't say that all fat is bad (healthwise or otherwise) or promote chicken nuggets or whatever (which have fat, usually). Public policy doesn't push weight loss pills, etc. -- quick fixes of all sorts are the provision of the diet industry and the idea that there's a way to lose that requires no actual work, time, sacrifice, which of course lots of people want to believe.
.
Again, I am referring to society as a whole. Yes, the food pyramid is outdated, but it still shows up. My sister is studying to be a nutritionist and the pyramid was on the front of one of her text books (a book published within the last 5 years). My niece's school had a "health" day and she came home with a coloring sheet that had the pyramid on it. Fat and fat-dense foods are still often characterized as "bad", and food in general is consistently characterized as "good" "bad" or "cheat-food" "safe-food"... in my opinion, speaking of food in terms of moral values is damaging to the way we think about and relate to food. I agree the diet industry is largely at fault as are shows like the biggest loser and whatever that kardashian sister's new show is. I guess my point was that the way that we, holistically (not as individuals because I know many of us strive not to speak/behave this way. I'm talking about the greater and more visible majority) as a society talk about food, diet, weight, etc. is part of the problem.
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When I had my gall bladder out the surgeon showed me a picture of the fat around the area. I didn't think he was fat-shaming me. He was showing me something that was unhealthy. Too many doctors are afraid to point out weight problems for fear people taking offense. I think both shame and acceptance should be taken out the equation, and we just look at being overweight objectively for what it is- unhealthy. No judgment, but no acceptance either. It health problem that needs to be addressed and supported just like any other health problem.5
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I started a related thread before I knew this one existed
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10506234/milo-at-lsu-fat-shaming-works
I started it after seeing a video from a controversial speaker on the Univ circuit
He's a bit crass, but he makes some good points that we should be effectively encouraging society to embrace obesity as appropriate. Video is at the above thread link, if you are curious.
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Haven't really kept up with the movement so I'm not sure if it turned into an extreme one since, but I always saw it as trying to get the point across that fat people exist and have the right to regardless of your thoughts on their appearances. Me existing as overweight person isn't saying this is okay by any means, just that I'm deserving of acceptance as a human being, and nothing more.
But with that said, at the end of the day, we all need take measures to ensure our health and longevity.
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Health at every size is crap. Excess weight causes or makes virtually every health conditon worse, adding unnecessary coats to society.
With this said, shaming isn't appropriate.1 -
Haven't really kept up with the movement so I'm not sure if it turned into an extreme one since
Oh boy howdy, did it. Probably the biggest example is a blog called Dances With Fat by a woman named Ragen Chastain who makes some really bonkers claims. It's a shame because:Me existing as overweight person isn't saying this is okay by any means, just that I'm deserving of acceptance as a human being, and nothing more.
...this for real happens, overweight and obese people being treated like they don't exist. And it's shameful.1 -
nokanjaijo wrote: »Oh boy howdy, did it. Probably the biggest example is a blog called Dances With Fat by a woman named Ragen Chastain who makes some really bonkers claims.
Sounds like she's the Food Babe of this particular movement.
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