Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Is the 'fat acceptance' movement a good thing?
Replies
-
Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
And all those that follow the foodies? Im just saying0 -
candythorns wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
And all those that follow the foodies? Im just saying
then the problem is the people, not the food.5 -
candythorns wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
And all those that follow the foodies? Im just saying
Everyone can control how much they eat. Blaming food is just a poor excuse.9 -
AnthonyX150X wrote: »candythorns wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
And all those that follow the foodies? Im just saying
Everyone can control how much they eat. Blaming food is just a poor excuse.
Im not saying its the existence of food but relationships to food. People arent born fat.2 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
For the most part, I think really appreciating and enjoying food doesn't make you more likely to get overweight or obese. For me, it's helpful to make sure I really appreciate what I eat, have some really special occasions (going to a good restaurant) that are planned for, and to eat mindfully (which foodies do). Plus, for me again, being a foodie (as some might call be) relates to carrying about how the food I eat is made, what's in it, wanting to cook myself, and even garden, etc.
I think a lot of people who are obese in the US eat mindlessly -- stuff like shoving down whatever is convenient in the car -- or food because it's there (I used to do this, now I'm more picky), or have shame/binge cycles where part of it is telling yourself that food should not be pleasurable, be enjoyed. Our weird Puritan thing where it's either denial or excess that is not even adequately enjoyed (unfair to the actual Puritans, btw). Countries with better food cultures than the US on average (although there are pockets of real food cultures available throughout the US) tend to have less obesity, like Italy and France (although they are catching up some). I don't think caring about food is the problem.4 -
candythorns wrote: »AnthonyX150X wrote: »candythorns wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
And all those that follow the foodies? Im just saying
Everyone can control how much they eat. Blaming food is just a poor excuse.
Im not saying its the existence of food but relationships to food. People arent born fat.
Of course food itself isn't the problem, but people can control their relationships with food. For some, its harder than others, but at the end of the day they are responsible for what they consume.4 -
candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
The Italians glorify food, and eat as an event--any excuse will do, weddings, religious holidays, weekends, vacations, family meals--practically all the time. There are not many obese folks.10 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
And plenty of those people are not overweight. The biggest foodies I know are all a healthy weight.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
For the most part, I think really appreciating and enjoying food doesn't make you more likely to get overweight or obese. For me, it's helpful to make sure I really appreciate what I eat, have some really special occasions (going to a good restaurant) that are planned for, and to eat mindfully (which foodies do). Plus, for me again, being a foodie (as some might call be) relates to carrying about how the food I eat is made, what's in it, wanting to cook myself, and even garden, etc.
I think a lot of people who are obese in the US eat mindlessly -- stuff like shoving down whatever is convenient in the car -- or food because it's there (I used to do this, now I'm more picky), or have shame/binge cycles where part of it is telling yourself that food should not be pleasurable, be enjoyed. Our weird Puritan thing where it's either denial or excess that is not even adequately enjoyed (unfair to the actual Puritans, btw). Countries with better food cultures than the US on average (although there are pockets of real food cultures available throughout the US) tend to have less obesity, like Italy and France (although they are catching up some). I don't think caring about food is the problem.
The catch-up in obesity rates, at least here (Italy) is children. However, the culture has always pushed for fat babies and children (think cherbs in all those famous paintings) because of the infant mortality rate in the past. A fat baby would have a better chance of survival. Statistics on obesity are a new thing here, so those kids could slim down as their parents and grandparents did.1 -
CipherZero wrote: »"Fat acceptance", as initially conceived, was about the overfat bringing to light and trying to change discriminative practices in pay, job acquisition, job security, promotions, and so forth.
At its fringes - which unfortunately are the most vocal group - "small fats" are somehow more privileged that "large fats" and any attempt to lose weight by their proclaimed members is seen as a betrayal of the highest order. Stores not carrying things in sizes of 20+ for women's clothing is seen as discrimination and complaints that clothing for larger people costs more - both of which don't match with the reality that there's less demand for wildly extreme sizes on any spectrum.
Mind, I'm a guy with a 28-inch inseam; last time I searched Amazon I found a total of fourteen selections in my waist and inseam sizes, most of which started at over $100. That's not discrimination, that's the reality of the marketplace for out-of-normal range clothing.
This fringe is little different from the pro-anorexia folks, and just as misguided. It's morphed into the notion that actual physical form doesn't matter at all as far as health, attractiveness, and a host of other things, including lauding lifestyle choices that are clearly self-destructive; if you disagree, you're clearly 'thin privileged' and 'a troll', both of which I've been repeatedly called by this same loudmouth fringe when asking what are apparently awkward reality-based questions about the movement.
At its very genesis, the underbelly of the movement had dubious beginnings. NAAFTA actually has roots in feeder fetish circles.
There's a link for this somewhere to be found on reddit, and I've seen it, but I don't have time to dig it up right now. The founder of NAAFTA was a feeder.
The original leaders of the other arm of fat acceptance who were trying to launch a movement latched onto him because he was getting somewhere (think Judy Freepsirit here) and a movement was born. These women didn't care that they were being used, as long as their political agenda was being furthered.2 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Interesting topic. I live in Europe, and things are different here (Italy). It's hard to be obese here. I remember over 20 yrs ago, on TV they were interviewing several obese folks and I still remember one guy saying "Society cannot and should not make things easy for us, it's too costly for everyone else and makes it easier for there to be more of us". Here in Italy it's hard to find clothes, furniture, etc. I'm tall with a bigger shoe size and had a devil of a time here. I was always medium build so I could fit into clothes--I cannot immagine the struggles of an obese person--so, you have to stay smaller or you're in big trouble. In the States and several other countries it's easier to be obese, so people are.
Sorry, to answer you're question--it's not a good thing in my opinion.
As a small man, I must say I am in trouble as well here in Europe. I'm basically a 44, size which most of the time I simply can't find (and when I find it it is often too big anyway). Solution? "Juvenile" shops, even if I'm 48
1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »CipherZero wrote: »"Fat acceptance", as initially conceived, was about the overfat bringing to light and trying to change discriminative practices in pay, job acquisition, job security, promotions, and so forth.
At its fringes - which unfortunately are the most vocal group - "small fats" are somehow more privileged that "large fats" and any attempt to lose weight by their proclaimed members is seen as a betrayal of the highest order. Stores not carrying things in sizes of 20+ for women's clothing is seen as discrimination and complaints that clothing for larger people costs more - both of which don't match with the reality that there's less demand for wildly extreme sizes on any spectrum.
Mind, I'm a guy with a 28-inch inseam; last time I searched Amazon I found a total of fourteen selections in my waist and inseam sizes, most of which started at over $100. That's not discrimination, that's the reality of the marketplace for out-of-normal range clothing.
This fringe is little different from the pro-anorexia folks, and just as misguided. It's morphed into the notion that actual physical form doesn't matter at all as far as health, attractiveness, and a host of other things, including lauding lifestyle choices that are clearly self-destructive; if you disagree, you're clearly 'thin privileged' and 'a troll', both of which I've been repeatedly called by this same loudmouth fringe when asking what are apparently awkward reality-based questions about the movement.
At its very genesis, the underbelly of the movement had dubious beginnings. NAAFTA actually has roots in feeder fetish circles.
There's a link for this somewhere to be found on reddit, and I've seen it, but I don't have time to dig it up right now. The founder of NAAFTA was a feeder.
The original leaders of the other arm of fat acceptance who were trying to launch a movement latched onto him because he was getting somewhere (think Judy Freepsirit here) and a movement was born. These women didn't care that they were being used, as long as their political agenda was being furthered.
*NAAFA. Stupid autocorrect.0 -
Point blank I don't think anyone should be shamed for being fat or skinny. It's not OK to judge people's bodies. We all have our on vices, some are just more visible than others. It's also not OK to give your thoughts on why someone else is fat regardless if you've been fat yourself unless they specifically ask for your input. I firmly believe that we cannot take care of ourselves properly if you don't love yourself unconditionally as you are. This goes for physically and psychologically. It's important to build people up instead of tearing them down. It's important to show love regardless of size (big or small) because we are social creatures and are mostly hard wired to thrive on positive social interactions. So yes, I think it's a good thing. It's a good thing to promote an inclusive environment where the focus isn't on the size it's on the person.
Have you ever noticed (I'm sure you have) that the clothing options for people in outlying sizes are vastly ugly and out of date? Like put on a moo moo and try to have confidence in yourself when the whole world wants to drag you down. So I think accepting the fat PERSON will help that person love themselves and maybe even want to inspire change. Fat shaming doesn't work in the long run.4 -
fattymcrunnerpants wrote: »Point blank I don't think anyone should be shamed for being fat or skinny.
No one can "shame" you unless you feel you're doing something wrong. If you're satisfied with your weight, nothing anyone else does is going to make you feel bad about it.
Children are easy to shame, because they haven't yet developed the skills to understand right from wrong, or have difficulty controlling their emotions. If you're not a child and you think it's possible to be "fat-shamed" (or "slut-shamed," or whatever), then it's time to either grow up, or stop doing things that make you unhappy.
2 -
I say just mind your own business, and do what's best for you. It doesn't do anyone any good whatsoever to shame OR praise someone for such a non-achievement as being overweight. Like my mother (and yours too, probably) liked to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."2
-
Honestly? To a certain extent, yes. I don't think it's about condoning obesity, but more about accepting yourself for who you are, and understanding you are more than just a number on a scale. Growing up, I hated myself because of my weight - I still do, to be blunt. But the sad thing is, up until high school I was only slightly overweight, and far from obese. Yet, because of the media, and what people around me told me, I always thought I was never good enough because I wasn't "skinny". Maybe if this had been around then, I would have a different mindset. Or maybe not - I digress. My point is, I think it's helping the younger generation understand not everyone is the same - some people are going to be bigger than others, and that is okay, because it makes us all unique.
1 -
Well this actually happened to me at Disney World. A female and her kids got on the transportation bus. Myself and my brother in law, were both sitting and we both got up to let the female sit down. She chose his spot (which was beside me). I was at the end of the seat (bench seats) and she sat to my left. Every time the bus driver stopped she slid into me and pressed me into the end of the bench. And she was well over 250lbs. Not discriminating, but it was an uncomfortable ride all the way to our hotel.I think it's good in the fact that it promotes not being a total *kitten* to someone because they are fat. I mean really, how does someone else being fat affect me?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
It's the such a thing as Critical Weight Studies now? Because the language referred to her a few times, and in other places, and on some HAES sites, refers to "Thin Privilege", which is just post - Marxist communist Critical Theory phrasing. And as a libertarian learning individual, you may surely fill in how I feel about that, and about any laws, rules or regulations enforcing this type of thinking.
Which still doesn't invalidate my earlier assertions that treating people badly, making them feel inferior, or punishing them for being overweight is a total crab action.
*no kittens were harmed in the making of this post.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I wish people would separate the arguments for self positivity, and anti-shaming from the Fat Acceptance movement proper. Because they are two separate things.
If you think the Fat Acceptance movement is simply about obese people not wanting to be shamed, you're not aware of things I posted in the other thread.
That is not where the movement is headed. The vanguard of the movement is actively against thin people. The vanguard of the movement shames obese people for losing weight. The vanguard of the movement is taking steps to have the morbidly obese regarded as a protected class.
I firmly believe all of that is hogwash and wrong-headed and is entirely separate from the issue of affording dignity to individuals who are obese.
Legislation has been attempted to be introduced in one Canadian province along the lines of the granting the obese special privilege. Universities have courses specializing in "fat studies". This is taking things too far down into the rabbit hole.
Obesity is a self-inflicted condition that can be treated. I'd rather see some focus on how the complex condition can be effectively addressed than this denial that it's a problem to the point where it's invading academia.
From the other end of the spectrum,my experience is that thin people are shamed too. At 5'3 and around 112 lbs,I was within the "healthy "range for my height and yet was judged and slated on a regular basis and called skinny,emaciated,scrawny,told to eat more because I needed fattening up,assumptions made that I have an ED and even ,on one occasion,it was suggested that my partner must be some kind of closet paedophile because he found my thin body attractive.
I actually wasn't happy with my weight which is why I joined mfp and have now gained weight (am now 127 lbs)
My point is,no one has the right to judge anyone on the basis of size and appearance ,or make unfounded assumptions about their health on the basis of appearance.
4 -
candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
Food is amazing. I go out to eat as a event fairly often. But I am not overweight.
Food is a longstanding part of human culture. Appreciating it isn't a problem. Eating more than you need is the problem.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
Food is amazing. I go out to eat as a event fairly often. But I am not overweight.
Food is a longstanding part of human culture. Appreciating it isn't a problem. Eating more than you need is the problem.
I know this has already been mentioned, but appreciating food has helped me limit calories. I buy really good gelato. It's expensive and satisfying, and those two traits combine to help me limit how much of it I eat at a time. Same goes for cheese and beer. I buy the high end stuff and savor it, and as a result I eat less of it than I used to do.11 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »candythorns wrote: »I think the issue is food and not ppl. We glorify food. There are foodies. People go out to eat as an event.
Food is amazing. I go out to eat as a event fairly often. But I am not overweight.
Food is a longstanding part of human culture. Appreciating it isn't a problem. Eating more than you need is the problem.
I know this has already been mentioned, but appreciating food has helped me limit calories. I buy really good gelato. It's expensive and satisfying, and those two traits combine to help me limit how much of it I eat at a time. Same goes for cheese and beer. I buy the high end stuff and savor it, and as a result I eat less of it than I used to do.
Most of the things that resulted in my weight gain -- snacking when I wasn't all that hungry, taking an extra portion just because it was there, eating candy that people brought to meetings -- came from an *under-appreciation* of food, not a glorification of it. I didn't gain weight because of foodies and five-star restaurants. I gained weight because I just ate everything on my plate even when it wasn't that good or I didn't really want it.
I know my experience isn't universal, but for many of us, the glorification of food wasn't the problem. Foodies are the people encouraging people to slow down and pay attention to what they're buying and preparing and that is a great strategy for many of us.8 -
Well this actually happened to me at Disney World. A female and her kids got on the transportation bus. Myself and my brother in law, were both sitting and we both got up to let the female sit down. She chose his spot (which was beside me). I was at the end of the seat (bench seats) and she sat to my left. Every time the bus driver stopped she slid into me and pressed me into the end of the bench. And she was well over 250lbs. Not discriminating, but it was an uncomfortable ride all the way to our hotel.I think it's good in the fact that it promotes not being a total *kitten* to someone because they are fat. I mean really, how does someone else being fat affect me?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Heehee I've had broad shouldered men (my husband is one of them) and man spread men sitting next to me and I'm not a fan of stranger man thigh all over me (most times):).
Not saying you aren't being correct and honest about uncomfortableness but it happens sometimes even with non obese folks.4 -
I have been very thin (128lbs and 5'8) and very fat (over 210 lbs.) Currently I am at 172; my highest weight in 6 years. I was hanging around 160 up until the holidays. I can still pull off a size 10 because I am very toned. At 128 there were people who hated me. Fat people can be downright nasty to skinny people. At 210, I felt more accepted by most people, but there were those who clearly thought I was disgusting. My own father said an overweight woman ( meaning me) is worthless, so I better lose it.
Currently, I work with mostly obese people. They leave me out of their lunch plans when they go to McDonalds with their coupons and then go eat in a different room and leave me to eat by myself. At first I thought, "That's not very nice, I am not judging them." But after I thought about it, I had to admit I do judge them. I mean it is hard not to think when you see an obese person eating a big mac and fries with a coke, "What are you doing!" But I would never in anyway let on that I think that. Basically, they make me uncomfortable, and I make them uncomfortable. So I will just have to be lonely at work. I wonder if that is why I subconsciously gained so much over the holidays.
Everyone wants to fit in. Sometimes I find myself eating the junk at work and minimizing my healthy lifestyle. I pretend I am going to go get a piece of cake "later". I guess I just need to do what I need to do and forget about what every one else thinks.
2 -
The only thing I can say is if it was easy to be thin, we'd all be thin.
Of course we would.
My issue with food goes back most of my life, its an emotional one and now that I am post menopause, I can see it was a very hormonal one (it changed after menopause, got easier).
I read on a thread here once, "Its hard to lose weight, its hard to be healthy, its hard to be fat, its hard to be unhealthy - choose your hard". Its this for me.
At 54 I blew my L knee, wear and tear from obesity and a family history of osteo-arthritis. I decided to take control of my health as best I could. I've never looked back.
People want to fit in, if someone is obese its their problem. Accept them.
The governments actively want us to practice healthy behaviours because it saves them money on health care - statistically. You can be overweight/obese and healthy when you are young. I don't think it lasts past 50 though.
In Australia *kitten* junk food is ridiculously cheap, the food industry encourages people to up size and eat too much, poor people often find it easier to eat this kind of food due to circumstance than to 'shop around' for nutritious food.2 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »fattymcrunnerpants wrote: »Point blank I don't think anyone should be shamed for being fat or skinny.
No one can "shame" you unless you feel you're doing something wrong. If you're satisfied with your weight, nothing anyone else does is going to make you feel bad about it.
Children are easy to shame, because they haven't yet developed the skills to understand right from wrong, or have difficulty controlling their emotions. If you're not a child and you think it's possible to be "fat-shamed" (or "slut-shamed," or whatever), then it's time to either grow up, or stop doing things that make you unhappy.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. We're social creatures and social acceptance is something most people strive for on some level.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Legislation has been attempted to be introduced in one Canadian province along the lines of the granting the obese special privilege.
Which one? And what are they trying to do? Do you have a link to this (please)? I'm curious.
Thanks.
0 -
I used to support FA.
Now I categorically don't. I don't think someone should feel awful or horrible about themselves because of their size, but it's bad science to pretend that being overweight has no health risks. Being overweight/obese is unhealthy, full stop. It's never too late to become healthier, which should be good news to those who are legitimately concerned about their health and wellness.5 -
carolyn000000 wrote: »I have been very thin (128lbs and 5'8) and very fat (over 210 lbs.) Currently I am at 172; my highest weight in 6 years. I was hanging around 160 up until the holidays. I can still pull off a size 10 because I am very toned. At 128 there were people who hated me. Fat people can be downright nasty to skinny people. At 210, I felt more accepted by most people, but there were those who clearly thought I was disgusting. My own father said an overweight woman ( meaning me) is worthless, so I better lose it.
Currently, I work with mostly obese people. They leave me out of their lunch plans when they go to McDonalds with their coupons and then go eat in a different room and leave me to eat by myself. At first I thought, "That's not very nice, I am not judging them." But after I thought about it, I had to admit I do judge them. I mean it is hard not to think when you see an obese person eating a big mac and fries with a coke, "What are you doing!" But I would never in anyway let on that I think that. Basically, they make me uncomfortable, and I make them uncomfortable. So I will just have to be lonely at work. I wonder if that is why I subconsciously gained so much over the holidays.
Everyone wants to fit in. Sometimes I find myself eating the junk at work and minimizing my healthy lifestyle. I pretend I am going to go get a piece of cake "later". I guess I just need to do what I need to do and forget about what every one else thinks.
This was me exactly. When I was surrounded by obese people at work (probably 70%) I felt like the outcast. Sitting at my desk eating my salad. One time they sent a sheet around for pizza orders and skipped me entirely. I eat pizza. I got over it. As far as cake and goodies, I would just skip them but people still will bring you a piece because "you just have to try it". I'd graciously accept and then toss it out when nobody was looking. Should I have said NO outright? Probably, but nobody wants to hurt someone's feelings.
Keep doing the right thing for yourself and find acceptance elsewhere.2 -
I do get the impression though that a lot of the Fat Acceptance movement is pushed by manufacturers so that their food items continue to sell. Take a look at half of the crap they sell in stores, if they reduced sugar, carbs, or used less sodium or better ingredients the calorie content of their crap food would be much less. Don't get me wrong, I love junk food like everyone else, but if there's a healthier option I've learned to choose it because I no longer want to be fat. If, however, I accepted myself as a fat person I would have no issue whatsoever filling my cart with chips, sweet snacks, and crappy prepared food on every trip to the store like I used to do. Now I hit the meat isle, pick up what I need, then I hit the veggie isle, maybe the peanut butter, and frozen vegetables, and dairy. I'm then 90% done with my shopping. I may pick up bottled water, the occasional pack of diet soda, but I skip the chip isle, just about everything in the cereal isle, and maybe hit the canned goods on the way out but I limit what I buy based on sodium content. 65% of the items in my local grocery store are of no interest to me these days. I think that's motivation enough to fund some campaigns for Fat Acceptance.
Just my humble opinion, I'll go back to wearing my tinfoil hat now... 3 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Legislation has been attempted to be introduced in one Canadian province along the lines of the granting the obese special privilege.
Which one? And what are they trying to do? Do you have a link to this (please)? I'm curious.
Thanks.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-liberals-weight-human-rights-1.38647881
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 430 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions