"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
Replies
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AntoinetteAngus wrote: »
Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To me this is extremely concerning coming from a 'so-called' Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer. You should be socially responsible and teach your client to aim to eat clean at least 70% of the time. It seems like anyone can become a Certified Trainer these days and most of them are completely out of shape. Where exactly did this notion of eating whatever you want whenever you want as long as it fits in your calorie goals come from? You are being lied to and thank you to the original poster for starting this discussion.
This is completely personal preference. While you should make healthier choices to fuel your body, it's ok to eat things you like. If anything, he sounds like a great trainer who his people have lasting success with, because he's teaching healthy habits and relationship with food. Clean eating is an insane concept in regards to me.. I respect anyone that wants to, and does, and/or restricts their diets. Again, to each their own. It would never work for me, and I think a lot of people fail because they attempt to "clean" eat.
And it doesn't sound like he's saying - Yo, eat fries. You don't need no green stuff. Cheers.11 -
I think I'd agree with the OP in this form: eating *kitten* junk food isn't worth it. Does life include pizza? Hell-mothertruckin'-yeah it does! Does life include Dominos pizza? That would depend on how unbelievably intoxicated I am, because man, that stuff just is NOT worth it.
I don't think I could go my whole life without junk food or high-calorie food or whatever their definition is; however, on a general level, I totally agree that I am more satisfied (and feel a lot better in every sense of the word) when I eat real foods. I quit doing the Keto thing, but I still think I feel better when I eat fewer carbohydrates (except for plants... because excluding plants from your diet is pretty counter to... well... life).4 -
You guys just take every single word someone writes literally, to the t. I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.
I just wanted to point out the bolded IS how some people moderate some foods.
It is also how SOME people fit in "what they want".
"What I want" shouldn't be confused with
"how much"
"how often"
or
"to hell with overall nutrition"
Just as you don't want your words taken too literally and you have to explain further what you mean should help you to see that "eating whatever I want" may have a slightly different meaning than you are interpreting it as.
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Well done OP - well done. Hook line and sinker.8
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »@3rdof7sisters and @WinoGelato.
Yeah, the eating less calories to lose weight thing. The original post in this thread and my comment you're both responding to actually doesn't refute that fact or diminish it.
OPs point was simple in his original post, if strongly and controversially worded. He doesn't want to eat one fried chicken wing, a single biscuit, and a Pepsi at Popeye's (I'm paraphrasing). It doesn't satisfy, it temps, it teases, it sets obsession thoughts in motion and ultimately, it derails. Yes. Some people are like that. I know it's shocking, wrong and silly.
Yes, yes, we know. There's hundreds if not thousands of success stories here at MFP with the same testimony. 'I ate a half cup of Ben and Jerry's ice cream every day while losing weight and look at me now! This is the way it's done. If you don't do this you'll binge on ice cream later." "Life isn't worth living without a Snickers every now and then. Eat one once in a while or you're doing it wrong and you'll put all the weight back on later." "Don't be a fool. Eat barbequed pork ribs, corn on the cob, and deep fried onion rings and don't skip dessert. Just make it fit or you're a dumbasss."
But that approach doesn't work for everyone. I know, I know. They're just not trying hard enough, they're wrong, they're destined for failure and someday, if they pay attention to the most prolific posters on MFP they'll finally get it.
I go to live meetings full of people who have successfully kept off 100+ pounds eliminating tempting foods and never picking up again. Yeah. They're out there. And they're here, at MFP whispering quietly in the bushes, running from the spotlight, and chatting in countercultural groups of likeminded weirdos.
Because if they ever described their method of success, by reducing caloric intake by ELIMINATING CERTAIN FOODS INDEFINATELY they'll get piled on like this OP did.
Really love this.
But it seems to be based in a fundamental misunderstanding of the OP. OP wasn't describing the method that worked for them personally, they were saying that people who had success with other methods were offering "garbage advice."
In reality, there are people who do really well while eliminating or heavily restricting certain foods. And there are other people who do really well without eliminating foods.
For me personally, the concept of "good" and "bad" foods sets me up for failure and it sets me up for binges. The "garbage advice" OP is complaining about is what finally enabled me to lose weight and keep it off relatively easily.
I have no problem with anyone who doesn't want to eat [x] ever again because they know it's the best way for them. But the reason threads like this tend to get out of control is because people assume that their path to success is the only path.
I read the OP as saying that people saying "CICO works for me, therefore it must work everyone" was the garbage advice.
CICO is not a diet. It's not a way of eating. It doesn't work for some and not others. It says that you gain, lose, or maintain depending on where calories in are vs. calories out. HOW you eat to reach the goals you want to reach is personal.
What OP said was garbage advice was that you should eat what YOU like within your calories. WHY? Because he seemed to assume that meant eating only small amounts of so called junk foods. Of course, the foods he assumed we like are not only all junk foods, but pretty stereotypically fat person foods, and he assumed that as fat people (or former fat people) we wouldn't enjoy eating them in smaller amounts and couldn't figure out for ourselves how to eat to not be hungry. Advice to us must explain that, or we (as fat people) are apparently too dumb to figure out how to eat.
Saying: calories are what matter for weight loss, but of course you should eat for health and satiety too. However, you don't have to eat in any specific way (other than controlling calories) to lose weight, that's a matter of personal preference is therefore "garbage advice," because it means we -- stupid fat people! -- will eat only 6 french fries or whatever and be starving. (I'm also not sure why our calorie goals are so silly low, but better to create a strawman with, I guess.)13 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »I don't unstand the us and them mentality re moderation and abstaining.
I think we all want folks to be sUccessfull.
Pointing out one way that works as an individual potentially sheds some light where none existed for some.
A blanket statement like "cutting out foods is garbage advice don't listen to them" would also be incorrect.
I expect some like me would say "yeah cutting out foods didn't work for me" and I'd expect others to come in and say "best thing I ever did". We all fall somewhere and it's good to know there are options.
Yeah, I think this is a good point, and as someone who considers herself a moderation person but does a lot of what some seem to consider abstaining, I don't see it as two separate groups.
What I dislike is people claiming that to lose weight you MUST do certain things: you MUST cut out junk food (or eat clean 70% of the time, whatever that means), you MUST cut carbs, you MUST cut out bread, you MUST cut sugar.
OR, the rather obnoxious related thing that doing it that way is better: well, eat as much added sugar as you feel you have to, but of course the better and stronger thing is to be like me and not eat any! Or "well, most people should cut carbs, carbs are UNNECESSARY and therefore bad" or "fat is filling, carbs aren't" (in reality it depends on the person and IMO the carb and the fat).
(On occasion I think the moderate position can get like that, but usually that's not the point at all, and I certainly think it's unfair to suggest that most people who take the "eat whatever you like" position are saying it's wrong to follow a diet like keto or paleo or vegan or cut out trigger foods, etc. I certainly am not.)
So when someone jumps into a thread to insist that everyone should "eat clean" (whatever that even means) or "not eat sugar" or "cut out fruit, nature's candy!" or whatever the hot thing of the moment is, I do think that's garbage advice. If they say "oh, I struggled with similar things and this is what worked for me," I don't think that's garbage advice.
But on point, I think it's not true to say that "eat what you want within your calories" is garbage advice. It's not, and it still leaves open a lot of flexibility to decide individually what you want and why. What's garbage advice is to assume that you know, fat people, what they want will be a lot of junk and they can't exercise judgment or common sense, no way.8 -
This is my interpretation of the original post:
That it's true that you can eat small amounts of high calorie foods and stay under your calories for the day, BUT that it's bad advice to give to someone just starting out, because if they get ravenously hungry they are more likely to fail. And the more small-in-volume, high-calorie foods you eat, the less high-in-volume, low calorie foods you can eat in a given day (while staying true to your calorie goal.)
My personal opinion is that it depends on the person. Some will do better if they eat 90 calories worth of carrots for a snack (three large carrots), while others will do better if they eat a Reese's peanut butter egg with the same amount of calories.
I do remember that when I first started calorie counting, I would get RAVENOUSLY, unbearably hungry, and would "crack" a lot of the time. The first week was the worst.2 -
Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I scratch my head when you say eat what you want.....and then show what experience you have for 30 years in nutrition.
I'm not a know it all, don't claim anything. Just kinda seemed strange, with all the bad food's out there. All the preservatives and crap they put in food now days. Maybe it's a 2 step process, lose weight by eating your favorite foods at less calories then maybe changing over to clean later on after you lose the weight.0 -
I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated.
If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.
The bolded statement is where I think your logic is off. The assumption that every fat person got there eating calorie dense foods. Sure, maybe some did. For me, I was really surprised at how full I was when I dropped down off some of the stuff I was eating (and overeating) and paid attention to nutrition and macros. Getting more fiber and protein made a difference. I really needed to lay off the juice. Sure, it has nutrients, but for what I was drinking, it has a ton of calories and typically isn't very satiating. I've heard the same from full-sugar soda drinkers and from fancy coffee people.
Will power didn't need to be a dominant trait. And I did lose 100+ pounds (kept it off for 2.5 years) by eating what I want and staying (generally) under my calorie goal when I was losing.
What I hightlighted in bold is a common scenario with eager new members. They go from a diet where they eat a lot of calorie dense foods and/or beverages, to an extreme where they eat nothing but nutrient dense, voluminous foods, and how many times have we seen the "I can't hit my 1200 calorie goal" posts on here? The answer is almost always one of two things:
1. They are actually eating more than they think, because they aren't logging accurately
2. They have gone to such an extreme that they really are struggling to eat that much, thinking that they can only eat "healthy" food. Not understanding that while micronutrients are important, so is hitting a minimum number of calories, and there are number of calorie dense foods (nuts, oils, avocado, full fat dairy, ice cream, cookies) that could round out an otherwise balanced day so that they also achieve their calorie target as well.
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AntoinetteAngus wrote: »To me this is extremely concerning coming from a 'so-called' Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer. You should be socially responsible and teach your client to aim to eat clean at least 70% of the time.
Why only 70 % of the time? Isn't it true that anyone who doesn't eat clean at least 85 % of the time kills puppies?
No, it's not true, because 70 % and 85 % are just as made up and arbitrary as "clean." Does that mean you wash your food if it falls on the floor?13 -
Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I scratch my head when you say eat what you want.....and then show what experience you have for 30 years in nutrition.
I'm not a know it all, don't claim anything. Just kinda seemed strange, with all the bad food's out there. All the preservatives and crap they put in food now days. Maybe it's a 2 step process, lose weight by eating your favorite foods at less calories then maybe changing over to clean later on after you lose the weight.
How specifically do preservatives make food "bad"? Isn't that kind of the point of preservatives, to keep food from going bad?
But seriously - eating clean is not a requirement for weight loss, or for overall health. There are plenty of nutrient dense processed foods with preservatives that can be incorporated into the context of a healthy diet. Additionally, eating "junk" food in moderation does not make a person unhealthy. What I think @ninerbuff has described about his approach, particularly with overweight and obese clients, is that simply losing weight, regardless of the types of foods one eats while losing, improves overall health. Then from there, it is possible to become more health and nutrition focused - but again, as has been said COUNTLESS times in this thread - telling someone they can eat what they want and still lose does not mean that they should eat nothing but junk food. Presuming that someone plans to eat nothing but junk food, simply because a personal trainer, or someone on the MFP boards tells them it is ok - is a strange assumption to make about someone.13 -
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WinoGelato wrote: »
That OP made a kittenpost specifically to start a flamewar.7 -
OK. I'm going to go have my 4 slices of pizza and still finish the day off 270 calories under my goal now. Or maybe I'll have a beer too, and only come in 140 under... (Keep in mind, those of us with more to lose have higher calorie goals, and can do that).6
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Here is exactly what it means to me. Today I have eaten/will eat at maintenance, @ 2500 calories. I have done that for days and days. I have two kids in the military who will both be home this weekend, been a long time since I have had them both home at the same time. Their other brothers who live out of town are coming home too. So I am gonna have the whole Family at home this weekend. We are gonna eat. Ill log, but I don't care. Ill go back to a very slight deficit next week till I get back. That's what eating whatever you want means to me. (tonight is grilled chicken, asparagus and baked sweet potato)9
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4
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Ah, but did we feed them clean food or a moderate amount of pizza, loco rice, and chili cheese fries?
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Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
I have been trying, fruitlessly, to get my sister-in-law to stop with the ascetic diets where she cuts out all the foods she likes -- she's decided to "give up carbs" for Lent, for instance. Sure, she loses weight, but only to pack it all right back on when she's done. Why? Her diets do not allow her to develop sustainable habits. Once she goes back to eating her favorite foods, she also goes back to eating her old portion sizes. No surprise there.
Interesting. I gave up carbs 4 years ago. I have never found a more sustainable way of eating. I do not feel like I'm missing out on anything by not putting crap into my body. My diet is healthy and varied and full of delicious good quality food. I honestly can't say there's anything I miss. I would argue that "going on a diet" but still eating all the foods that made you fat in the first place is not sustainable. In fact, I tried it for 20 years, and it didn't work.4 -
Feel as concerned as you like. The first and social thing I do for my clients is to help them lose weight. If I can at the VERY LEAST, get them to eat less than they burn with their current diet, they will lose weight.AntoinetteAngus wrote: »
Really? I have success rates with ALL my clients and I don't preach eating "clean" at all. In fact, I do tell them to eat whatever they like AS LONG AS they don't exceed the calorie intake set for them. Do you know why people fail at diets? Because they usually are restricted from eating things they actually like. If one LEARNS how to control how much of something like eat, then the chances are higher that they will adhere to that habitual behavior.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Sorry if you can't do it, but that's an issue you deal with that you have to fix. Unless you have some actual peer reviewed clinical study that one CAN'T be taught moderation, you're just opining what you believe.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
To me this is extremely concerning coming from a 'so-called' Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer. You should be socially responsible and teach your client to aim to eat clean at least 70% of the time.
Trust that I've attempted the "clean" eating diet with many clients in my early days and guess what? They practically all regained due to the fact that is WASN'T SUSTAINABLE to them. So what should my social responsibility be? Just to instruct them to eat a certain way and insist that that's the only way, or give them an option that they can actually adhere to? I'll take the latter thank you. You won't hear my clients complaining especially since the majority have kept the weight off for many years.
Lol, yes it's obvious that I'm a trainer that's out of shape based on my pics.It seems like anyone can become a Certified Trainer these days and most of them are completely out of shape.
I don't know. Maybe from countries that actually do it that don't have obesity issues? Like Japan for instance? The issue here is that people think that when I say "whatever you want" it's an endorsement to just eat nothing BUT JUNKFOOD. Far from the truth. But primarily the most important step is just to get people to eat less than they are doing now. People AREN'T dumb here. They KNOW they can eat making better choices and I'm sure they will figure that out on their own. Thanks for opining though. I'm a legit trainer with many years of experience and don't need to make up crap to just get people to hire me. It's basically just information I learned from physiology classes.Where exactly did this notion of eating whatever you want whenever you want as long as it fits in your calorie goals come from? You are being lied to and thank you to the original poster for starting this discussion.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
16
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