"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
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I'm fairly new here, and I have seen that kind of advice (on different threads) a few times. Someone just starting to try to lose weight asks something like "Should I be eating more fiber?" or "I think I'm eating too much fast food," and a veteran responds with the "anything you want, just maintain a deficit" line. The veteran probably didn't mean that nutrition and food choices play no role in weight loss success. But to the newbie, who doesn't know what it means to strike a balance and keep things in perspective, it can sound like it.cwolfman13 wrote: »You're missing context here. Nobody is saying just eat junk food and stick to your calories. It's about striking a balance.
I haven't seen those examples. I have seen "how can I quit fast food" or "how do I go low carb" or "how do I keep sugar below 25" or the like, and people explain that you don't have to (unless there's a specific reason), since it is common for people to believe it is REQUIRED to do those things for dieting. (And other people answered the question and some, like me, probably did both.)
If someone said "should I be eating more fiber to lose weight!" (and also identified a low amount, let's say 12 g), I think they'd get an answer like the following (it would be mine): To lose weight you don't need to, although it can help with satiety if that's an issue or you want to try to. For nutrition and digestion it might be something to consider, especially since I see the lack of fiber results from eating few fruits and veg and choosing more refined over whole grains, etc. Here's a link that you might find useful (Harvard site, probably). One easy way to add more might be to add vegetables and some fruit to meals or as occasional snacks as an alternative, or to sub in some whole grains for white. Legumes also have a lot, as well as protein and are IMO delicious.
If you do choose to try to increase fiber, it does help to increase somewhat gradually.
(Again, I don't think I've ever seen this question. I've seen lots of people say "how do I increase fiber, I'm low" and invariably they get answers giving them ideas and no one saying "you don't need to.")
On how to decrease fast food, again they might get some "just make better choices," but I think the vast majority of answers would be along the lines of: "this is what I did: [add explanation]" or -- and this is what I would do -- "think about why it is that you tend to choose fast food -- is it the convenience, planning issues, wanting something fast, response to a bad day? understanding what leads to the choice will help you find the solution."
I really don't think people who say "I want to improve my nutrition" will get pushback. If someone says "I need to lose so have to cut out bread" they will get posts saying "no you don't" but if the person says "it's a trigger food" or "I know I can eat it but want some lower cal options" the responses will be different, at least from most.5 -
Maybe from countries that actually do it that don't have obesity issues? Like Japan for instance?
You would think the fact that countries where the diet consists largely of white rice tend not to have obesity problems would be a clue for some people that something is amiss with the "carbs" narrative. Myths die hard, I guess.
Don't take my white rice from me. Don't even try.7 -
Yes, all eleven pages. I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about. I might have missed a post, but if I did it was an oversight.WinoGelato wrote: »Have you actually read the thread?
Then I'm really perplexed how you can still interpret "eat what you want in a calorie deficit" as guidance to ignore nutrition, ignore hunger cues, eat nothing but junk food, and that we all need to provide disclaimers in case we are talking to an extreme case like McNugget Girl (and seriously? The Daily Mail is hardly a reputable source and she's 17. Where the kitten are her parents who never fed her a fruit or vegetable?). Or they all of us are focused only on weight loss and not overall health. Every post in this thread from veterans have clarified this time and again.
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So it's not right to say no one takes things to an extreme, because clearly some do.
That's a specific issue people can identify. It doesn't make "eat what you want within your calories" bad advice in general or OP's claims about what people WANT to eat more true for everyone (or even most).
The question for OP might be: "but what if what I want to eat causes me to always go over my calories?!" Oddly enough, the people saying it's bad advice never seem to have that problem, they seem to have figured out how to eat what they want within their calories.Second, "doesn't matter what you eat as long as you maintain a calorie deficit" is only true if weight loss is the only issue. If there are other issues, like nutrition and overall health, it's at best incomplete advice.
Sigh. As discussed at length earlier in the thread, people will say (at least every other person in a thread, and usually the ones who don't don't because they see it was covered) "of course what you choose matters for nutrition and satiety." I say that even though I don't think it should be necessary since EVERYONE not being willfully obtuse already knows that, specifically knows that what they eat affects how hungry they get later and of course nutrition. Telling an adult that they should probably eat some vegetables (while I do do it) seems unnecessary, no? When people don't it's because they don't want to, not because they are unaware that it's a good idea.Third, some people can maintain a calorie deficit while eating a lot of junk food, through willpower. But for a lot of overweight people, that's not enough. If it were, they'd have already lost weight. They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Eat whatever you want does not mean "just eat a bunch of junk food without a plan." Again, what I want includes things like how I feel, nutrition, not being hungry, feeling good. I assume most people who have common sense would agree with that.6 -
I actually kind of agree with it lol. I mean...I wouldn't say it that way. And I think it's also important to remember that yeah, you CAN eat pizza and brownies. And yes, if you are happy with a corner of a brownie and a slice of pizza, more power to you.
I am not. I eat vegetables and lean meat on the reg. My desserts are protein bars and 0% fage. I need a high volume of food, even in maintenance.3 -
I hadn't seen anyone refer to this, so I thought I'd share it. Here's a young woman who has successfully maintained a normal weight by not eating more calories than she used up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2092071/Stacey-Irvine-17-collapses-eating-McDonalds-chicken-nuggets-age-2.html
My only points are, first, that there really are people who eat like this (and probably a lot more with similar but less severe problems). For all we know, the person we're replying to could be one of those people. So it's not right to say no one takes things to an extreme, because clearly some do. As far as we know, someone who's reading the advice we post could be that person. Second, "doesn't matter what you eat as long as you maintain a calorie deficit" is only true if weight loss is the only issue. If there are other issues, like nutrition and overall health, it's at best incomplete advice.
Third, some people can maintain a calorie deficit while eating a lot of junk food, through willpower. But for a lot of overweight people, that's not enough. If it were, they'd have already lost weight. They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
My point is that one needs to take in the collective statements and posts and not pull out a single statement. In almost every thread someone brings up satiety and overall nutritious balanced diet as being important and beneficial. Why are these posts/statements being overlooked?
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This is where I disagree with you. I think there are plenty of people who are confused nor not completely informed without being willfully obtuse. When we post, we don't usually know much about the person we're giving advice to. They could have a lot of common sense, or not much. I think it's pretty safe to say that among people who are overweight a substantial number are very confused about how to eat.lemurcat12 wrote: »... I say that even though I don't think it should be necessary since EVERYONE not being willfully obtuse already knows that,...
I'm not saying the advice is bad advice, just that it's incomplete. In some contexts (such as where the question asked for a different kind of advice), it could be misleading.
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Also, WHY is it assumed that someone eating what they want will only choose junk food. Today at lunch I wanted a salad, was really craving it. At breakfast I wanted savory oats with vegetables. I'm not eating meat now, but I'm much more likely to want pasta with shrimp and vegetables, cooked in a bit of olive oil, maybe with some olives and feta, than, say, a Whopper (although if someone really wants a Whopper it can fit). More significantly, what I WANT is variety. Sure, I sometimes want ice cream. If I had to do the all ice cream diet I'd get bored before the day was up and feel lethargic. I can't imagine someone just wanting sweets.
And yes, there are are people who eat low nutrition diets, more than I'd like to admit, and I think it's a shame in some cases. Even they know that nutrition is good and what they want should (and probably does) include nutrition as part of it. Most people who just eat junk food probably have issues with planning and eating what you want within calories does not say don't plan.
The exception, which I learned about mostly on MFP, is people who claim to only enjoy junk food, to be so picky they can't eat anything else. For them, I think expanding the palate should be a goal, but it is, again, helpful to know they CAN lose eating even their chosen diets. (And being hungry will actually motivate them to figure out more satiating foods to include, I'd bet.)
But this idea that most fat people only want junk food and need to be told how to eat is SO condescending and IME not accurate at all.8 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »I hadn't seen anyone refer to this, so I thought I'd share it. Here's a young woman who has successfully maintained a normal weight by not eating more calories than she used up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2092071/Stacey-Irvine-17-collapses-eating-McDonalds-chicken-nuggets-age-2.html
My only points are, first, that there really are people who eat like this (and probably a lot more with similar but less severe problems). For all we know, the person we're replying to could be one of those people. So it's not right to say no one takes things to an extreme, because clearly some do. As far as we know, someone who's reading the advice we post could be that person. Second, "doesn't matter what you eat as long as you maintain a calorie deficit" is only true if weight loss is the only issue. If there are other issues, like nutrition and overall health, it's at best incomplete advice.
Third, some people can maintain a calorie deficit while eating a lot of junk food, through willpower. But for a lot of overweight people, that's not enough. If it were, they'd have already lost weight. They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
My point is that one needs to take in the collective statements and posts and not pull out a single statement. In almost every thread someone brings up satiety and overall nutritious balanced diet as being important and beneficial. Why are these posts/statements being overlooked?
Because it's much easier to point fingers at perceived bullies and braggarts claiming that they aren't helpful, rather than to acknowledge that there are a plethora of viewpoints on any one thread and that some critical thinking is required on the part of grown adults to sift enough the information and figure out what makes sense and will be helpful for their specific situation.
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This is where I disagree with you. I think there are plenty of people who are confused nor not completely informed without being willfully obtuse. When we post, we don't usually know much about the person we're giving advice to. They could have a lot of common sense, or not much. I think it's pretty safe to say that among people who are overweight a substantial number are very confused about how to eat.lemurcat12 wrote: »... I say that even though I don't think it should be necessary since EVERYONE not being willfully obtuse already knows that,...
I'm not saying the advice is bad advice, just that it's incomplete. In some contexts (such as where the question asked for a different kind of advice), it could be misleading.
Well, again, in part because I've seen some shocking things on MFP, I give nutrition advise all the time. So do most others who say "eat what you want within your calories." I bet we give a LOT more than those complaining that we shouldn't say "eat what you want, etc." But you know, jump in the threads and if you think it doesn't get mentioned, mention it. I watch added sugar and am happy to say so even though most don't here. (I also watch sat fat some and try to eat veg with all meals and am concerned about various other nutrition things and say all those things and people don't bite me for it.)
I also think people ARE confused on what a healthy diet is. Some think the ideal is a juice fast or only vegetables (I don't mean a sensible plant based diet) or no carbs ever. Some are confused by paleo vs. raw vegan vs. keto vs. whatever. But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.5 -
I recognize that I'm new here, but maybe that helps to see things from the perspective of a newbie who is reading posts. Not everything we say comes across the way we intend it to.
I did look at the earlier posts, and I am posting my opinions, politely I hope.2 -
Not really, because it's not advice. There's a difference between my saying that a group of people needs to change their eating habits and me replying to someone who's asking a question about whether they need to eat less fast food. The person who asked a question was asking for guidance, and got it, which sounds a lot more like advice. That is why I gave the example I did, to give an example of one situation where that advice is sometimes given.leanjogreen18 wrote: »They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
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I really hate to resort to this, but it needs to be said. We "veterans" have done and seen almost everything, we would generally like for others to learn from OUR mistakes rather than trying something that we already know has a very low percentage of success. We know this because we have YEARS of helping people on these boards and seeing people fail over and over. We have been successful at losing and maintaining. The absolute best option for success LONG TERM is to learn over time how to eat what we should and what we want. The best way to do that is to eat foods you like. So I'll go ahead and say it, check back with me in 36 months. There is a reason our opinions are in the majority.16
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I wonder if the people opposed to the IIFYM regiment of eating (Everything you'd like, in moderation, if it fits your macros) know that you can even exceed your calorie goal a few times a month by even a few hundred cals, and STILL lose weight over the long term...4
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Not really, because it's not advice. There's a difference between my saying that a group of people needs to change their eating habits and me replying to someone who's asking a question about whether they need to eat less fast food. The person who asked a question was asking for guidance, and got it, which sounds a lot more like advice. That is why I gave the example I did, to give an example of one situation where that advice is sometimes given.leanjogreen18 wrote: »They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
I do think its interesting you pulled out part of my post that talked about pulling out single statements:).
Its all good really. Just do what works for you and jump into threads if you feel like something important is being overlooked.0 -
Right here! I would rather have a lot of food than a little bit. If I have some teensy-weensy, tee-niney, pigmy sized pea shaped piece of something magically delicious I will not be satisfied. I save the junk for when I REALLY want it. I may blow my calories that day but man is it ever worth it when I do! Some people really are content with two Oreos or a half-cup of ice cream. I I eat that and it's gonna be on like Donkey-Kong.
People say, "Don't deprive yourself!" Deprivation occurs when you do not get what you need. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to blow all my calories on a pile of chili-cheese fries.8 -
Not really, because it's not advice. There's a difference between my saying that a group of people needs to change their eating habits and me replying to someone who's asking a question about whether they need to eat less fast food. The person who asked a question was asking for guidance, and got it, which sounds a lot more like advice. That is why I gave the example I did, to give an example of one situation where that advice is sometimes given.leanjogreen18 wrote: »They need to change what they eat - not just how much - and to some extent they need to change their lifestyle too, to make it sustainable. So "eat whatever you want" isn't really helpful advice for those people.
Respectfully the bolded is kinda incomplete advice as well isn't it? What changes do I need to make? What foods should I eat? Can I eat nothing but Kale? See what I'm saying?
Okay, so help us out then. A newbie starts a thread and says "I really need to lose weight, but I really love carbs so I'm stuck! Help!!!" My response would be - Hey OP, you don't HAVE to go low carb, you just need to hit your calorie goal, you can eat whatever food you want!" This I guess is garbage incomplete advice. So could you please tell me what we are supposed to say, and keep in mind there are HUNDREDS of threads started every day.10 -
I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.2
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I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.
I don't think just because you have an opinion thats different you need to apologize or ask for forgiveness.
I was a newbie 8 months ago and I just kept reading and eventually I came to a really good place and understanding of myself and what I need to do for me.
And as @Gallowmere1984 once said to me when I was a newbie...we aren't all rocket scientists, somehow we figure it out:).3 -
I think it matters what your calorie goal is...I can do it now that my goal is up around 1600 but I'll admit that when my goal was 1200 it would not have been possible (one order of pad Thai or 2 scoops of Ben and jerry's is uour entire calorie allowance for the day!) And it made me miserable hearing people recommend it. Now that I am more physically active AND I slowed my pace I can lose and fully enjoy my life eating most of the things I want...maybe a little less...sometimes not!
If you find it impossible to INCLUDE (note:not exclusively eat) the foods you love then perhaps you should up your general activity level or slow your pace so it's not so horrible.
This in no way takes away from the fact that you will feel healthier and happier getting the bulk of your diet from nutrient dense and lighter calorie choices.6 -
I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.
Hey, we get all that, didn't think you rude and you have every right to express your opinion. You haven't made any mistakes either. I for one am glad you have joined in, keep it up and stay engaged. This place needs new posters to breath fresh ideas into it. That said, I think you're are taking the wrong position and I base that on seeing it over and over and over. There are a few, but it is very few posters still around after 3 years who sing the praises of restriction. There are many who would say that moderation has better success.4 -
I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
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ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »Right here! I would rather have a lot of food than a little bit. If I have some teensy-weensy, tee-niney, pigmy sized pea shaped piece of something magically delicious I will not be satisfied. I save the junk for when I REALLY want it. I may blow my calories that day but man is it ever worth it when I do! Some people really are content with two Oreos or a half-cup of ice cream. I I eat that and it's gonna be on like Donkey-Kong.
People say, "Don't deprive yourself!" Deprivation occurs when you do not get what you need. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to blow all my calories on a pile of chili-cheese fries.
Okay, but there are different kinds of needs: physical, emotional, and psychological spring to mind. So, here's a situation that happened to me in December. We were invited to a Hannukah party. Now, for those unaware, there are two foods that are traditionally associated with Hannukah, if you are Jewish of Eastern European descent (I don't doubt that there are other foods involved for those of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/North African, but I'm talking about my background): Potato latkes and donuts. Usually jelly or custard donuts. And in the past, one of two things would happen to me at that kind of gathering:
Either I would be trying hard to stick to the fruit platter, while passing up the traditional foods, all the while wanting those foods and feeling miserable and deprived OR
I would give in, have the traditional foods, and feel miserable and guilty and go back for seconds and thirds.
This year?
I asked myself beforehand: How much do you think you need to be satisfied emotionally? Because you know you want the stuff, so let's just see ahead of time how bad it's going to be.
The latkes weren't going to be bad. My sister-in-law has a ceramic frying pan that doesn't require oil. I figured three was reasonable. The donuts? Sigh. 270 calories for jelly. 240 for custard. Too high to justify one... but half a custard? Yes. It was worth it at 120 calories.
So I had my three latkes and half a custard donut. And plenty of fruit and a bowl of home-made vegetable soup. And I felt satiated. And I didn't feel miserable. And I didn't feel guilty.
Now.
Did I need the latkes and half-donut?
Well... it wasn't a matter of life and death. It wasn't like I was starving and that was all there was and if I didn't have them, I'd collapse from hunger. So from a physical standpoint, no I did not. But from an emotional connection to the holiday and the foods I usually eat at that time of year? From wanting to feel like part of the crowd and not have clementines while everyone else was digging into the donuts? Yes, I think I did need them. I didn't need to go overboard. I ate what I'd planned and stayed within my calorie totals for the day. It was a treat, not a cheat. No guilt. No regrets. No deprivation.19 -
I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.
I don't think you need to apologize and I'm sorry if you thought my posts were implying that. We were all new at one point and many of us came to these boards with preconceived notions about diet and exercise (hello starvation mode, remember me your old friend?) that formed our initial perspectives and reactions to posters on these forums. After lurking and learning and asking some questions of our own, many of us found a way to be successful that we now want to share with others. If you do stick around these boards long enough (and I hope you do) you will realize that the same questions get asked over and over and over again. The same veteran posters try to answer them as patiently as we can, but it is impossible to address every possible hypothetical scenario or undisclosed unique situation that a poster may have forgotten to mention. The threads themselves are filled with a variety of perspectives and usually all the bases get covered by the collective community. As I said upthread, trying to add a disclaimer to every single post about the importance of nutrition is redundant and, IMO, insulting to some of the people asking the questions. With this thread in particular, it is frustrating to have page after page of discussion about what people mean by the statement in the OP, and why that perspective IS helpful to thousands of users who have finally given up demonizing or arbitrarily restricting foods when they didn't need to... yet people still keep misinterpreting the advice or saying it isn't helpful or sufficient.
So again, apologies for being a bit blunt. I do hope you'll take opportunities to ask questions and share your advice, particularly if you feel something was omitted on threads where someone asks if they can really still eat McDonalds and still lose weight (Yes! *but of course nutrition is important too and please don't eat nothing but McNuggets because that's icky and the Daily Mail might do an article about you which is not the 5 minutes of fame you're looking for.). How was that?
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I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
I was once a newbie and it was the most freeing information I've received. I learned my diet didn't have to be void of the things I like to eat and its actually more sustainable then my restrictive diets in the past.
But thats me.
ETA - I'm still learning new things after 8 months.4 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »Right here! I would rather have a lot of food than a little bit. If I have some teensy-weensy, tee-niney, pigmy sized pea shaped piece of something magically delicious I will not be satisfied. I save the junk for when I REALLY want it. I may blow my calories that day but man is it ever worth it when I do! Some people really are content with two Oreos or a half-cup of ice cream. I I eat that and it's gonna be on like Donkey-Kong.
People say, "Don't deprive yourself!" Deprivation occurs when you do not get what you need. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to blow all my calories on a pile of chili-cheese fries.
Okay, but there are different kinds of needs: physical, emotional, and psychological spring to mind. So, here's a situation that happened to me in December. We were invited to a Hannukah party. Now, for those unaware, there are two foods that are traditionally associated with Hannukah, if you are Jewish of Eastern European descent (I don't doubt that there are other foods involved for those of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/North African, but I'm talking about my background): Potato latkes and donuts. Usually jelly or custard donuts. And in the past, one of two things would happen to me at that kind of gathering:
Either I would be trying hard to stick to the fruit platter, while passing up the traditional foods, all the while wanting those foods and feeling miserable and deprived OR
I would give in, have the traditional foods, and feel miserable and guilty and go back for seconds and thirds.
This year?
I asked myself beforehand: How much do you think you need to be satisfied emotionally? Because you know you want the stuff, so let's just see ahead of time how bad it's going to be.
The latkes weren't going to be bad. My sister-in-law has a ceramic frying pan that doesn't require oil. I figured three was reasonable. The donuts? Sigh. 270 calories for jelly. 240 for custard. Too high to justify one... but half a custard? Yes. It was worth it at 120 calories.
So I had my three latkes and half a custard donut. And plenty of fruit and a bowl of home-made vegetable soup. And I felt satiated. And I didn't feel miserable. And I didn't feel guilty.
Now.
Did I need the latkes and half-donut?
Well... it wasn't a matter of life and death. It wasn't like I was starving and that was all there was and if I didn't have them, I'd collapse from hunger. So from a physical standpoint, no I did not. But from an emotional connection to the holiday and the foods I usually eat at that time of year? From wanting to feel like part of the crowd and not have clementines while everyone else was digging into the donuts? Yes, I think I did need them. I didn't need to go overboard. I ate what I'd planned and stayed within my calorie totals for the day. It was a treat, not a cheat. No guilt. No regrets. No deprivation.
Enjoying a holiday and daily life type of eating are not the same thing really. Most people relax on special occasions and get back to their plan the next day or when the holiday is over.3 -
Me, I'd go even further.estherdragonbat wrote: »ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »Right here! I would rather have a lot of food than a little bit. If I have some teensy-weensy, tee-niney, pigmy sized pea shaped piece of something magically delicious I will not be satisfied. I save the junk for when I REALLY want it. I may blow my calories that day but man is it ever worth it when I do! Some people really are content with two Oreos or a half-cup of ice cream. I I eat that and it's gonna be on like Donkey-Kong.
People say, "Don't deprive yourself!" Deprivation occurs when you do not get what you need. And I'm pretty sure I don't need to blow all my calories on a pile of chili-cheese fries.
Okay, but there are different kinds of needs: physical, emotional, and psychological spring to mind. So, here's a situation that happened to me in December. We were invited to a Hannukah party. Now, for those unaware, there are two foods that are traditionally associated with Hannukah, if you are Jewish of Eastern European descent (I don't doubt that there are other foods involved for those of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/North African, but I'm talking about my background): Potato latkes and donuts. Usually jelly or custard donuts. And in the past, one of two things would happen to me at that kind of gathering:
Either I would be trying hard to stick to the fruit platter, while passing up the traditional foods, all the while wanting those foods and feeling miserable and deprived OR
I would give in, have the traditional foods, and feel miserable and guilty and go back for seconds and thirds.
This year?
I asked myself beforehand: How much do you think you need to be satisfied emotionally? Because you know you want the stuff, so let's just see ahead of time how bad it's going to be.
The latkes weren't going to be bad. My sister-in-law has a ceramic frying pan that doesn't require oil. I figured three was reasonable. The donuts? Sigh. 270 calories for jelly. 240 for custard. Too high to justify one... but half a custard? Yes. It was worth it at 120 calories.
So I had my three latkes and half a custard donut. And plenty of fruit and a bowl of home-made vegetable soup. And I felt satiated. And I didn't feel miserable. And I didn't feel guilty.
Now.
Did I need the latkes and half-donut?
Well... it wasn't a matter of life and death. It wasn't like I was starving and that was all there was and if I didn't have them, I'd collapse from hunger. So from a physical standpoint, no I did not. But from an emotional connection to the holiday and the foods I usually eat at that time of year? From wanting to feel like part of the crowd and not have clementines while everyone else was digging into the donuts? Yes, I think I did need them. I didn't need to go overboard. I ate what I'd planned and stayed within my calorie totals for the day. It was a treat, not a cheat. No guilt. No regrets. No deprivation.
A lot of these foods that are so calorie dense that we tend to totally avoid them while reducing were never designed to be parts of our daily diet. They're festive foods, eaten on special occasions, maybe a couple of times a year, for celebrations. In that context, there's no way even a whole jelly doughnut, or several, or a half-dozen latkes fried in schmaltz, are going to be a big problem.
Every day? Yeah, that's a recipe for waistline disaster. Once or twice a year? No harm at all in my book. Not even approximately a cheat. It's a party. It's for celebrating the season.4 -
I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
Sorry, one thought on this. Can I tell you how many times a newbie asks a question about a particular fad diet, a gimmick, a woo based theory that they heard about on Facebook or Pinterest or Instagram... and when they are told that is a waste of time, money, effort, as well as being unnecessary, potentially dangerous, etc.... then the people who are providing this advice in the best interest of the poster are labeled meanies, bullies, vicious, unsupportive, critical, etc. If you don't believe me, check out the current Fat Burners thread.
It is impossible to address every scenario with a single post, and some people just aren't ready to take the advice, even if it is specific and directed right at them and tied with a big red bow on top.
People have to be willing to read, ask questions, learn, sometimes with a thick skin, to be successful. If they aren't, then this may not be the right place, right time, or right venue for them.
13 -
I recognize that I'm new, but I'm not trying to be rude or ignorant. If I made a mistake, please forgive and bear with me. I really did read the entire thread, as I said. And on behalf of the other newbies, please consider that not everyone has it all figured out yet.
You don't need to apologize, seriously.
I get riled up though, because there is a group of veterans here who have successfully lost weight and kept it off, who take time out of their days to try to help other people reach their goal. And they get criticized constantly for not saying enough, for saying too much, for saying it wrong. Yet I don't see any of the criticizers taking hours out of their own free time to give better advice themselves. It's easy to cherry pick a reply here and another one there to criticize. It's another to put your own time and pride on the line and jump in and do the actual dirty work.
By all means, it's good to constantly get new blood in here and get different perspectives. I was new a couple of years ago. And what I learned here has been invaluable, I hope it will be the same for you :drinker:12 -
I agree with you that, if you asked them, people would say they agree with this. But in practice people are not completely rational, and some are a lot less rational than others. A lot of people are or were looking for some gimmick that will allow them to lose weight and eat anything at all. That's why people keep falling for gimmick diets. In their heads they know a diet of mostly junk food is a bad idea, but they still allow themselves to believe they've found some loophole when they hear it.lemurcat12 wrote: »But what I don't think is that ANYONE, anyone at ALL, thinks that these strawmen diets "only donuts" or "only Whoppers plus lots of fries and milkshakes, no veg" or whatever it is are good, healthy, balanced diets, and they also will realize the calorie issue as soon as they start counting. People know they shouldn't eat tons and tons of junk food -- no one who eats mostly junk food claims they are doing it for health. People also know they should eat vegetables. With the exception of some in the XTreme Keto community ("carnivores"), who would consider themselves educated and don't want my advice, I've yet to come across someone on MFP, even the least informed newby, who doesn't know she should be eating vegetables. They may need to figure out how, but they know they should. Saying they might think that only cake is a reasonable diet is not a real thing, sorry.
From the point of view of veterans, your advice is absolutely clear. From the point of someone who is new to this board, I wanted to say that a lot of the "eat whatever you want" advice can sound different than it's intended.
That has nothing to do with the advice. If people are going to hear what they want to hear, then they are not ready. Period.9
This discussion has been closed.
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