"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.

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Replies

  • L1zardQueen
    L1zardQueen Posts: 8,753 Member
    dfwesq wrote: »
    dfwesq wrote: »
    We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much ;)
    OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw. :) The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success. :)

    Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.

    In this very section there's this:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10300319/most-helpful-posts-general-diet-and-weight-loss-help-must-reads#latest

    Thank you. I did look at those when I joined, but I didn't see any that addressed the "eat whatever you want..." idea. Are there any that you know of? (Serious question.)

    How about this one!

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10183824/things-i-had-to-unlearn-about-losing-weight/p1
  • CynthiasChoice
    CynthiasChoice Posts: 1,047 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    MeganAM89 wrote: »
    To be honest I think that the most frustrating thing about this thread is that the OP is so very close to having some good points - they're just coming out all wrong and instead of being helpful it's just coming off as a massive generalization (because no ifs, ands or buts were included in the original post) and a little condescending.

    And when someone posts a thread that denounces an entire section of MFP users, whether intentional or not, you have to expect some blowback.

    It's more often than not that only the people who disagree with a post will comment on it. Often times when you agree you don't even bother to comment, so of course most people who have responded to this thread have started their rebuttals with, "actually..."


    Some people come here for debate, and some come to find like-minded future friends and helpful advice.

    And still others come here to share helpful advice, which the OP labeled "garbage" yet those of us who are responding are admonished and told we need to be "nicer".

    Some people give advice tactfully and respectfully and others sound like bossy bullies. Why should we expect MFP to be a functional family when most of us have dis-functional families in "real life."

    And still, no comment from you about the OP's choice of words "garbage advice", supported by sweeping generalizations and misunderstanding of what people actually mean when they offer advice of "you can lose weight and still eat the foods you want in a calorie deficit". The rest of us are the bossy bullies?

    That wasn't aimed at you. Sorry if you read it that way.
  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    How about this one!

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10183824/things-i-had-to-unlearn-about-losing-weight/p1[/quote]

    Thanks, that's all good advice. I didn't notice anything that directly answers the question a newbie might have, but it is still very good advice.
  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    edited March 2017
    What I'm saying @dfwesq is that, no, we cannot win. If we try to answer threads with personalized advice we're either too hasty, too blunt, not enough disclaimers, etc. Try to link newbies to old threads and you're wrong too.
    I'm very sorry that people mistreated and were ungrateful to you - I genuinely am. I hope it can all be OK.

    I think my posts were understood to mean "Hey all you veterans, give better advice and do a better job" and I'm sorry if I conveyed that idea. I read the OP, which seemed to be aimed at general advice-givers, and that's what I had in mind. (I had seen a few threads where people - no one here - were giving advice to new members that seemed pretty extreme.)
  • WinoGelato
    WinoGelato Posts: 13,454 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    dfwesq wrote: »
    We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much ;)
    OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw. :) The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success. :)

    Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.

    Okay, breaking a month of lurking to say this. After years of posting on these boards, including two stickied posts that answer newbie questions that no one reads, I've been told repeatedly that posting links to old threads is rude, mean, insults the intelligence of newbies. I've had bumps to stickied threads so that more people see them marked as spam. I've been called a spammer for posting said links to the intro threads asking for tips. I've been called a troll for using standard copy/paste advice. I've been told that it's mean, rude, nasty, etc to use standard copy/paste advice that tries to cover all the angles. I even have a copy/paste for threads where people post to tell us all that we're rude/mean/terrible for not giving advice the OP wanted to hear because it's so frequent.

    What I'm saying @dfwesq is that, no, we cannot win. If we try to answer threads with personalized advice we're either too hasty, too blunt, not enough disclaimers, etc. Try to link newbies to old threads and you're wrong too.

    No one can win on these boards. Fortunately a number of people keep trying from different angles. Personally, I like that these boards end up with advice from a variety of viewpoints. People build off of each others' posts and chime in if they feel something has been missed or glossed over. I just can't be *****'ed to do it anymore after being beaten down by threads like this one over the years.

    I hope you stick around to point newbies to the stickies, copy/paste links, bump useful threads, etc. instead of just complaining that not enough of us do it. The boards need more people who can.

    I was thinking of you, and your copy/paste "at some point in time, every helpful member of these boards will be called mean... " when I was responding to many of these posts in this thread. I thought about beetlejuicing you in but I'm glad to hear you found it all on your own. You heading back to lurker land?

    I'll be in lurker land for a while. Mostly, I'm just busy with other things. But I also recognize that I need a break from these boards every now and again. There's just too much fun here for a person to handle :drinker:

    It's a good time for a break. Rock Chalk!
  • CynthiasChoice
    CynthiasChoice Posts: 1,047 Member
    cmtigger wrote: »
    Gosh, you were certainly burned at the stake. I think what you said made sense. I have suffered from this awful binge eating disorder for 34 non stop years, even was part of an eating disorder program for 8 months and had to take a leave of absence from work to attend, and what you said def is my way to go as well. If the replies you got are the norm around here, I shall refrain from posting or reading too much. I am too sensitive and volatile and did not come here to cat fight.
    jdb3388 wrote: »
    People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
    Most here agree that there are different needs for dieting if you have had an eating disorder. It makes it a lot harder, and for some saying foods are off limit is okay. But for the run of the mill dieter, it isn't needed.

    Do you think there might be more than a few people using this site that have un-diagnosed eating disorders? That may explain a lot of the disagreement over proper dieting advice.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,600 Member
    ^^^Not only that adding every caveat or note would make posts incredibly long.

    Yikes . . . I resemble that remark! ;)

    Back on topic, perhaps only slightly restating a few others: What seems really weird to me about the OP (post, not person) is the clear implication that standard American junk food is (1) what 'we' want, (2) how 'we' got fat, and (3) what tastes good.

    To those three points, speaking only for myself:

    (1) Just no (NO!).
    (2) Portion control, mostly; but unnecessary and excessive carbs and cheese had a strong supporting role, plus daily (but mostly not abusive) alcohol consumption. I've been eating 83.52% (so-called) "clean" since before there was a misleading and irrational word for it.
    (3) Yuck. I don't know what "loco rice" is, even. I haven't had chili cheese fries since at least 1974. Ditto Big Mac (did they even have those in 1974? Can't recall. Whopper existed, though). I'll admit to pizza, but with the whole-wheat crust, heaps of veggies (roasted eggplant is a special favorite), no meat.

    I wouldn't even bring this up, but the OP speaks as if there are universals at play in this. Just as we need to different individualized ways to lose weight (though always CICO), we had many individualized ways of getting fat in the first place, and of falling off track (when that happens).

    Me, I cringe every time I see the word "hyper-palatable" in its common MFP context. ((Shudder)).
  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    1) Yes, there clearly are people who are afflicted with various eating disorders.

    2) Yes, there clearly are stupid people with no common sense who do stupid things in spite of the fact that it's a terrible idea.

    Neither of the above would be paying the least bit of attention to logical common sense advice, so they're irrelevant to this thread (and the entire topic in general).
    Let me give you an example of what I think is a good way to put it. This person asked about whether they should be drinking a gallon of water a day.
    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10529957/gallon-of-water-a-day#latest
    I think your response was perfect. Someone was confused, and you pointed them to good information. Yes, it's a tired old health rumor that people with common sense should ignore, but people are still falling for it. I'm glad you decided to give this person this information.

  • dfwesq
    dfwesq Posts: 592 Member
    Funnily enough, as Diannethegeek has said up-thread, people often get called meanies or smartasses when they just drop a link into a thread like that. It's almost like newbies all have different, individual expectations of how they ought to be approached ;)
    I'm really very sorry that people are mean when you point them to helpful information. It's no fun to try to help people out and get flamed for it. But I do think being helpful and accurate is the way to go.

  • andrewq6100
    andrewq6100 Posts: 415 Member
    just no twinkie diets please....

    I used to be a guy that was "omg no junk (and let me rephrase JUNK for some people)) no high carb empty calorie foods like CANDY BARS GUMMY WORMS ICE CREAMS MCDONALDS once in a while or your diet is ruined" but I tried that and had what is called, for druggies..a RELAPSE...my body was at a point where it felt the need to GAIN the weight back I had lost so in turn I BINGED, because I cut out foods my body was USED to and ENJOYED. Now, even though it's in HEAVY moderation, I do enjoy those things but alas they are not a staple for my weight loss. I would never attribute my personal weight loss to the fact that "I can eat anything as long as i'm in a deficit" because for me that was simply not true. If I had eaten a sweet or candy or cake etc during my initial weight loss even IN a deficit it would for some reason turn on a switch and make me go even harder with the sweets junk etc and would essentially push me OVER my limit. Once I was able to master my mental practice of eating habits then I was able to fit in foods I enjoyed, but until then I had to enact discipline as many do to get it started.

    Idc how many people say "well i didn't have to" thats fine because every human is different. But I know a lot of people i've worked with (and no i'm no where NEAR a PT or nutritionist) but they get the FASTEST results and most satisfactory results FROM eating "CLEAN AKA Not trying to worry if a candy bar cake mcdonalds will FIT in their macros". What I mean is that a lot of people doing weight loss PREFER to cut the junk out not because its BAD for them but because its just not needed for their specific goals.

    Sure a treat is nice every once in a while but if Person A) want's to get shredded for a competition in 12 weeks and has never done anything in his life remotely close to this, then most likely he is NOT going to want to have anything to do with sweets and mcdonalds because it might SABATOGE his process. I'm not saying it WILL i'm saying from a mental standpoint it could. Again every person is different but I will always point back to this; flexibile dieting is KEY but eating like POOP is not. You can be in a deficit all you want while eating cakes if that's what your into, but some people, like me, prefer to just cut it out because to us, calories in vs calories out counts for a lot more than just a number and a food type.

    Sorry, but this is full of nope. Common MFP fallacy, "everyone is different". Nope, everyone must abide by the laws of physics. You will lose weight in a calorie deficit no matter what you eat. My experience here on MFP for the last three years is exactly opposite of what you say, many many more people succeed by NOT restricting as opposed to those who cut out foods or food groups. It's at least 10-1, probably higher. There are so many straw men in this post it needs a warning label as a fire hazard.

    Well as far as everyone is different..we are, physiologically yes, and as well as goal specific yes. You cannot be a 10% shredded athlete while trying to fit mcdonalds into your micro/macro plan every day. Maybe once or twice a week. As for the every day MFP FAM weight loss person then of course "calorie deficit, calories in calories out" is fine and dandy but for the small percentage of us on MFP who want to achieve that greater body composition and i'm sure there are more out there "in the bushes" and also maintain a cool 7-10% yr round, and even some who may be beginning competition prep, they and neither would their coach, recommend indulging in poop foods more often than not. If it is such a falsity than why do pro coaches exist, why is there such thing as "competition prep" and how do figure and bodybuilder pros continue to look like they do while only eating what they do? Or do they really just stuff their face constantly with junk behind the scenes and we don't see it? I'm not saying restricting or CUTTING foods for the every day joe and dane, but if your goal is THIS or THAT you eventually have to sacrifice THIS or THAT, its the law of success.. With every success comes failure, and a sacrifice and if you don't know that well then you haven't succeeded.
  • surreychic
    surreychic Posts: 117 Member
    I am fortunate to like vegetables (unfortunate that I like all food a bit too much! I used to sing with happiness when I was weaned apparently). I haven't battled bingeing completely - aa different story. l still like pizza, chocolate etc and have it nearly every day but I have a smaller portion and fill my plate sky high with vegetables these days, if I didn't my plate would be filled sky high with pizza. So I guess it is about overall deficit but some foods are more filing than others and if I open a packet of biscuits, well I'll eat the lot and I don't miss them when they are not there so I try to have healthier options, staying within my allowance. When I feel well!
  • snowflake954
    snowflake954 Posts: 8,399 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    dfwesq wrote: »
    We actually have those links, and they get pointed to all the time. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to get read that much ;)
    OK, but you can point them out again. I'm giving you the newbie's point of view on this, btw. :) The brand new newbie has not seen your earlier posts about the stickies, and may not know how to find them or even that they exist. I understand it's tiresome to be complete each time, but it's really really helpful. Some newbies may ignore it, but others will pay attention and go on to success. :)

    Speaking of which, is there a link that answers the question of whether "eat whatever you want..." is good advice? (Serious question.) If it was posted earlier, I didn't notice it.

    You realize none of us are moderators, right? Maybe I'm misreading. But it sounds like you are saying that if I don't feel like addressing every possible variable every time I post, I really should just point them to the stickies and stay out of it?

    This is a public forum for a reason. It's not a FAQ.

    There is so much value here and so much experience to be learned from and you really just bummed me out.

    It feels like that is implied all too often. Some days I wonder why do I even bother?

    IKR? Luckily I do often get thank yous, sometimes in thread and sometimes a PM. But yeah, I understand why some people who used to donate a lot if time here have disappeared.

    Seriously. I am glad I was here when people who are now banned were here and freely gave out awesome advice as blunt and direct as it could possibly be.

    Me too!
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