"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
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Yes, it's perplexing, but it's also how the human mind works. We aren't very good at grayscale, not when we feel threatened, and when something we perceive as important, is at stake. As I struggled with sticking to my virtous goals of "lean, green and mean", ideas like "okay, I didn't manage all five servings of vegetables today, but I did manage three, that has to be good enough, I feel fine, I'm not going to bend over backwards to reach some arbitrary number", never occurred to me, it was "I'm a failure, I can't even do this simple thing that everybody says is normal eating and I have to because if I don't I get cancer tomorrow and I can feel I'm getting fat again and so I might as well throw in the towel. Where's that big bag of chips? And I gotta buy some chocolate cake, now".WinoGelato wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Eat whatever you like within your calorie limit has never seemed to me to mean "just eat whatever seems tasty with no plan until you run out of calories." Obviously, for anyone with a weight problem, that's unlikely to work. People insisting it means something like that seem to be creating a strawman.
For me, what it means is that I decide, based on my calorie goal and other goals (for me, protein, overall nutrition, taste, how I like to eat -- mostly homecooked whole foods, certain convenience, work, and social requirements) how to allot my calories. I don't think I need to follow any rules like "never go out to eat" or "never eat pizza" or "sugar is the devil" or "bread is bad for dieting." (I don't eat much bread because for ME bread is usually not worth the calories, but I know it has no more fattening properties than anything else of the same # of calories.)
Since what I WANT to eat not only involves what tastes good, but what will make me feel good, not be hungry or tempted to overeat, and will meet nutritional goals, of course that's part of it. And since I am not typically satisfied if I graze I don't eat at whim but have plans for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Usually not a really set plan (I like to be flexible and tend to decide on dinner over the course of the day based on what I have on hand), but still a plan that is in my head.
Yes, I could just go to work, see that there are a bunch of donuts someone brought it (like there were yesterday), and eat 5, but I'm not going to, and in no way is that how I WANT to eat -- again, it's a strawman. I don't think most people seriously committed to losing weight and getting healthier want to eat like that either, but they might want to occasionally have a donut (or they might not--they might prefer other things always). The point though is that I don't have to worry about avoiding bad diet food and eating special diet food or any of the other fake rules people make up (or even things like "is oatmeal good for weight loss") -- I can experiment and figure out what I like.
And if I was honestly clueless and thought 1000 calories of donuts would be a good way to use all my pre dinner calories? Heck, maybe for some it would work. For me I'd feel awful and be hungry and tired and low energy in the afternoon, probably, and so I'd learn something.
Great post but especially wanted to comment on the last part. It seems there is this all or nothing mentality amongst some who maybe at one point were trying to just eat nothing but "junk food" in a calorie deficit, found it to be not satiating and not a very good experience. So rather than thinking, "ok maybe 5 donuts isn't a great idea, but maybe I could fit one in with some eggs or oatmeal so that I am more satiated, but still get to enjoy the donut" instead they go the extreme opposite direction and say "must cut out all donuts and only eat healthy foods since donuts don't fill me up". To me, as your post suggests, the sensible thing to do would be to look at the context of your overall diet, figure out where you are sacrificing nutrition and satiety for pure enjoyment, and make small changes until you do a balance that you can live with. That this is not the approach that more people take, that they say "eating nothing but calorie dense foods didn't work so therefore this concept of IIFYM or moderation doesn't work for me at all" when in fact they weren't eating in moderation to begin with... is perplexing.8 -
I am learning that I CAN eat most foods in moderation. Some foods to me AREN'T worth the calories. I'll skip the bread basket, because I can eat a more caloric meal if I skip the breads. It's the same amount of calories, but I just choose to split an order of fried green tomatoes with someone instead of eating a roll or cornbread. Nachos or a margarita ( if they are same calories). Nachos for the win!! But, I can eat sensibily and get my junk and unhealthy foods in as well. I just use moderation and plan for it. If I know I'm eating Mexican food Friday night, I eat very light lunch and breakfast that day, and I try to make a healthier choice eating that night.7
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I'm old enough to remember a time before Supersized Meals, and blue-collar enough to remember growing up in a world where eating out was a treat, not an expected daily routine.
Most of us did not get fat because Big Macs exist. We got fat because Big Macs became "what I have for lunch everyday."
We got fat because food got cheap enough that many people can afford to go out, or order in, on a very-regular basis. And because as that market grew (and food was cheaper, relatively, than it had been), restaurants upped their portion sizes to impress customers.
And because we all still think that when we're eating out, its a "special treat" and we "deserve" to eat a full-on three-course meal. The kind of meal our parents and grandparents would have thought of as something for festival days. We eat birthday and anniversary dinners two and three times a week.
Growing up, when we went to Burger King, my parents each got a burger that was the size of the burger in the kids meal. We split a large order of fries between the family, and a "regular coke" was what - 12 ounces? They don't even stock cups that small anymore. And somehow, everyone was satisfied with that meal.
So for me? If I remember that "whatever I want" and "whenever I want" and "how much I want" are not all a good idea at the same time? That's the key. But yeah, I don't have to put everything tasty into some kind of Box of Taboos, I just need to understand that context.20 -
I am learning that I CAN eat most foods in moderation. Some foods to me AREN'T worth the calories. I'll skip the bread basket, because I can eat a more caloric meal if I skip the breads. It's the same amount of calories, but I just choose to split an order of fried green tomatoes with someone instead of eating a roll or cornbread. Nachos or a margarita ( if they are same calories). Nachos for the win!! But, I can eat sensibily and get my junk and unhealthy foods in as well. I just use moderation and plan for it. If I know I'm eating Mexican food Friday night, I eat very light lunch and breakfast that day, and I try to make a healthier choice eating that night.
That's just crazy talk.......all that common sense and moderation and making informed choices and...and...and.....7 -
prattiger65 wrote: »I am learning that I CAN eat most foods in moderation. Some foods to me AREN'T worth the calories. I'll skip the bread basket, because I can eat a more caloric meal if I skip the breads. It's the same amount of calories, but I just choose to split an order of fried green tomatoes with someone instead of eating a roll or cornbread. Nachos or a margarita ( if they are same calories). Nachos for the win!! But, I can eat sensibily and get my junk and unhealthy foods in as well. I just use moderation and plan for it. If I know I'm eating Mexican food Friday night, I eat very light lunch and breakfast that day, and I try to make a healthier choice eating that night.
That's just crazy talk.......all that common sense and moderation and making informed choices and...and...and.....
They chose Nachos over a Margarita. Yeah, that's crazy talk.
Actually, when I go out it's often the Keg. And I will gladly eat half the loaf of table bread and skip the appy and eat half my meal.
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Tacklewasher wrote: »prattiger65 wrote: »I am learning that I CAN eat most foods in moderation. Some foods to me AREN'T worth the calories. I'll skip the bread basket, because I can eat a more caloric meal if I skip the breads. It's the same amount of calories, but I just choose to split an order of fried green tomatoes with someone instead of eating a roll or cornbread. Nachos or a margarita ( if they are same calories). Nachos for the win!! But, I can eat sensibily and get my junk and unhealthy foods in as well. I just use moderation and plan for it. If I know I'm eating Mexican food Friday night, I eat very light lunch and breakfast that day, and I try to make a healthier choice eating that night.
That's just crazy talk.......all that common sense and moderation and making informed choices and...and...and.....
They chose Nachos over a Margarita. Yeah, that's crazy talk.
Actually, when I go out it's often the Keg. And I will gladly eat half the loaf of table bread and skip the appy and eat half my meal.
Exactly, its always about making informed decisions. When I was losing actively, I CHOSE to not eat bread. It is calorie dense and not too filling. Now that I am at maintenance, I generally eat bread when offered, just not ALL the bread. Its choices and informed decisions.
ETA: Always choose a margarita or beer, always.3 -
If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death.
Hello! I am here to tell you you're wrong.
I went from 3500 to around 1000, without changing my diet (except by reducing it), and without even feeling hungry, let alone 'starving to death'. I had to rewrite my entire psychology around food and reward, but it can be done.
Currently on around 1200 because I've taken to the gym like a duck to water and my body complains if I forget to eat at least some of it back 5 -
...MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death...
What a coincidence - those numbers match my previous and current intake almost exactly. And I eat plenty of calorie dense foods I enjoy, have lost over 60 pounds and am never "absolutely starving to death". And I guess I could be considered a "larger" person - I'm 6'6" and was 270 lbs when I started this, stepped on the scale at 207 lbs this morning. I'd point you to my food diary but I keep it locked, mostly because I don't want "clean eaters" going in there clucking and wagging their tongues about what I eat and trying to tell me how I should be eating. I've done just fine by any and all measures, thank you very much.13 -
You guys just take every single word someone writes literally, to the t. I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.
Just wait until you are close to goal, and you find out how untrue that statement is. The reason so many people stall out on the 'last 5-10 lbs' (even if they only had 10 lbs to lose at the start), is because it becomes more and more difficult to find places where you can make a sensible cut of 250-500 cals and NOT miss the food enough to derail yourself. Plus, you're losing weight slower resulting in perceived diminishing returns for sticking to plan.
Being a smaller person does not mean you are somehow automatically satiated with the amount of food appropriate for your weight.
On the other hand, if someone is really overweight (I'm thinking mostly morbidly obese or close to it), it is often more than possible to make major calorie cuts with substitutions that don't affect satiety much. Hence the number of people that lose lots of weight by doing things like drink diet soda instead of regular, or decide to have grilled chicken instead of fried, or lose the condiments on sandwiches, etc.
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...MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death...
What a coincidence - those numbers match my previous and current intake almost exactly. And I eat plenty of calorie dense foods I enjoy, have lost over 60 pounds and am never "absolutely starving to death". And I guess I could be considered a "larger" person - I'm 6'6" and was 270 lbs when I started this, stepped on the scale at 207 lbs this morning. I'd point you to my food diary but I keep it locked, mostly because I don't want "clean eaters" going in there clucking and wagging their tongues about what I eat and trying to tell me how I should be eating. I've done just fine by any and all measures, thank you very much.
Now I really want to see your diary...for ideas.
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JeromeBarry1 wrote: »I'll jump in. This past Christmas season was my first Christmas in CICO land. I discovered that there is indeed an attractive calorie-dense food which I cannot eat in moderation. Pecan pie. It was good, but it won't be invited into my home again. I had 30 grams of fruitcake every day for 2 months, 130 calories each. But portioning enough pecan pie into something I can eat and be satisfied and be under 200 calories proved impossible. I can have Girl Scout Cookies in moderation. I can have fruitcake in moderation. I can even have chia seeds on my homemade pizza in moderation. Now that I've discovered that I can't be moderate with pecan pie, there's no point experimenting with banana pudding and coconut cake. When I was big and fat, no reason existed that I should consider avoiding pies, cakes, or even put chia seeds on a pizza. None at all. When I decided to start living like a small person, everything I could eat was evaluated in a new light. Should I eat it? Some delights pass the test. Some don't. My calorie budget is to get at least 1600 and stop at 1700. Sometimes I eat exercise calories. Yesterday I exercised ate calories.
Pecan pie, apple pie, cherry pie, pumpkin pie, peach pie...all the pies are dangerous to me, but I agree, pecan pie, no such thing as moderation.1 -
My n=1 to this: I was never hungrier than when I losing those last 10 lbs getting down to my running race weight of 150 lbs and sub 10% BF.You guys just take every single word someone writes literally, to the t. I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.
Just wait until you are close to goal, and you find out how untrue that statement is. The reason so many people stall out on the 'last 5-10 lbs' (even if they only had 10 lbs to lose at the start), is because it becomes more and more difficult to find places where you can make a sensible cut of 250-500 cals and NOT miss the food enough to derail yourself. Plus, you're losing weight slower resulting in perceived diminishing returns for sticking to plan.
Being a smaller person does not mean you are somehow automatically satiated with the amount of food appropriate for your weight.
On the other hand, if someone is really overweight (I'm thinking mostly morbidly obese or close to it), it is often more than possible to make major calorie cuts with substitutions that don't affect satiety much. Hence the number of people that lose lots of weight by doing things like drink diet soda instead of regular, or decide to have grilled chicken instead of fried, or lose the condiments on sandwiches, etc.
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storyjorie wrote: »If I just ate whatever I loved and stopped when I hit my calorie limit, I'd be done eating at noon. I think IFIFYM works great if you can eat at least 2000 calories and lose, but what if you're smallish, maintain on maybe 1700 calories and need to go down to 1400 or so to lose, and you are one of those people who is often HUNGRY? Suddenly a giant salad with grilled chicken and a teaspoon of olive oil with balsalmic is looking great, while that Big Mac is just a recipe for not being able to eat a decently filling dinner.
This is another area where it is largely personal preference: satiety.
For me, vegetable salads do nothing. I can eat a literal mixing bowl's worth (I've done it many times before), and although that's a lot of volume, I'm not satisfied. The chicken would help, but it would need to be 4-6 oz and I'd need a side of something else to make that a meal. Baked potato, guacamole, something.
On the other hand, I'm OK with a regular hamburger from McD's, though I'd rather have a couple of chicken soft tacos from Taco Bell for about the same cals. Don't even need the larger Big Mac.5 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »
This is incorrect.
Indeed!
There are two types of people in the world. Those who like pineapple on pizza. And those who are wrong
I masticated the crap outta this bacon, pineapple, and feta beauty last night and it was HEAVEN! Anti-pineapple-pizza people don't what they're missing.
(And because I racked up 18,700 steps I was still under my calorie goal for the day)16 -
One piece of pizza and 7 chips won't keep me full very long and offer very little nutrition. Therefore, "Eat whatever type of food you want in tiny quantities" is not a sustainable lifestyle for me. A couple times a month is ok, but not 24/7.9
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We can be less bitter, people. Just because the OP is a little frustrated doesn't mean we have to let that make us bitter. Give your two cents, but be the stronger person and keep it respectful (some tones can definitely be detected lol).
The OP was just stating that generalized advice of "its all about CICO, stick to a deficit and you will lose weight" is redundant to most people. Different foods have different effects on different people, and not all people's will power is the same, not everyone's kitchen is the same, and not everyone within the same social circles have the same goals with health (namely, in the family).
It is all about perspective. Give your perspective, and be kind and you won't feel as negative as you do when you write a bitter post. Every person on here that is asking for advice is looking for one thing: perspective. So, share yours. How do you not limit yourself and still stay under? Just saying you do doesn't help anyone.
Cheers, mates. Have a good day.
We should make this post into a banner over all MFP threads! Thanks for succinctly saying what many of us want to express.3 -
People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
You're missing context here. Nobody is saying just eat junk food and stick to your calories. It's about striking a balance. For example, I eat very well from a nutritional standpoint most of the time...I have pizza night most Friday nights as we have a fun family tradition of picking up pizza on the way home from school and watching a movie. It's once in a week...it's pretty irrelevant to the whole of my nutrition. I have a little something for desert 2-3 nights per week...again, pretty irrelevant to the whole of my nutrition.
You're taking those comments completely out of context.10 -
To be honest I think that the most frustrating thing about this thread is that the OP is so very close to having some good points - they're just coming out all wrong and instead of being helpful it's just coming off as a massive generalization (because no ifs, ands or buts were included in the original post) and a little condescending.
And when someone posts a thread that denounces an entire section of MFP users, whether intentional or not, you have to expect some blowback.
It's more often than not that only the people who disagree with a post will comment on it. Often times when you agree you don't even bother to comment, so of course most people who have responded to this thread have started their rebuttals with, "actually..."
Some people come here for debate, and some come to find like-minded future friends and helpful advice.4 -
One piece of pizza and 7 chips won't keep me full very long and offer very little nutrition. Therefore, "Eat whatever type of food you want in tiny quantities" is not a sustainable lifestyle for me. A couple times a month is ok, but not 24/7.
Which is exactly what most sensible people are saying. No, subsisting on pizza, chips and fast food 24/7 isn't a good idea (for several reasons) but you can certainly fit it in moderation within the context of an overall well-balanced diet. And I'd submit that if somebody is existing 24/7 on fast food, we're not talking about an overall well-balanced diet in the first place.
There are some people who have difficulty with moderation of certain foods. For them, it's probably best to cut them completely out if they can't control their impulses. But that doesn't mean the same applies universally to everybody. A recovering alcoholic should avoid consuming alcohol in any amount at any time, but that doesn't mean that somebody who has never had a problem with alcohol consumption/addiction can't have a couple beers or mixed drinks once in a while.7 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »To be honest I think that the most frustrating thing about this thread is that the OP is so very close to having some good points - they're just coming out all wrong and instead of being helpful it's just coming off as a massive generalization (because no ifs, ands or buts were included in the original post) and a little condescending.
And when someone posts a thread that denounces an entire section of MFP users, whether intentional or not, you have to expect some blowback.
It's more often than not that only the people who disagree with a post will comment on it. Often times when you agree you don't even bother to comment, so of course most people who have responded to this thread have started their rebuttals with, "actually..."
Some people come here for debate, and some come to find like-minded future friends and helpful advice.
And still others come here to share helpful advice, which the OP labeled "garbage" yet those of us who are responding are admonished and told we need to be "nicer".16
This discussion has been closed.
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