"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
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But this is the strawman argument that every "clean eater" presents, and it's a moot point because nobody in their right mind proposes that eating ONLY JUNK FOOD is a good idea. It's a textbook example of binary thinking - either you're eating nothing but organic produce grown on a remote mountaintop by pious monks and watered by unicorn tears under the light of the full moon, or you're sitting on your couch and shoveling junk food into your piehole 24 hours a day. No possible way there could be a reasonable, sensible approach between those two extremes.Detritus_1965 wrote: »I understand where the OP is coming from and he is right, staying in deficit isn't the whole truth ...
If I try to achieve this by only eating junk-food this will usually lead to no good end.
The exact same can be said of the OP's "advice".Detritus_1965 wrote: »"One step at a time" is possibly the only universal truth in this process, some may share long passages of the way, many will never even meet the same road, others seem to come to come the wrong way. We can offer assistance if asked for help, but please try not to "correct" the method found if not asked for guidance because most likely it will end up with a "sheep" that has lost it's way.37 -
I actually kind of agree with the OP about it not being great "blanket advice," but for slightly different reasons than those given by the OP.
First of all, some background: I do not restrict any of my macros and am, for the most part, a CICO adherent...with some caveats: (a) I HAVE been experimenting with calorie cycling with some success. (Read up on fat loss and hunger hormones. It's pretty fascinating stuff!) (b) I have had to cut out dairy because of lactose-intolerance misery, and I have chosen to give up meat for personal ethical reasons. This is not to lose more weight. And before everyone piles on to tell me about how much they love to eat tasty animals and how I can take their bacon from them when I pry it out of their cold, dead hands, let me just say, no, I don't judge others for eating meat. I'm just clarifying that I have non-weight-loss reasons for choosing not to do so myself.
I also, of course, acknowledge that one can lose weight while eating "junk" aka hyperpalatable, macronutrient-rich but micronutrient-poor foods like pizza, cheeseburgers, etc. Unlike the OP, however, I don't think that necessarily means "starving," in the sense of feeling hungry all the time. But I do think it's kind of uncool to present the whole "just eat whatever you want within your calorie limits" advice as a cure-all for everyone. It is advice that is thrown around on here all the time like it's the gospel, and I think there are good reasons for that most of the time because it has helped a lot of people. I acknowledge that. BUT I do think that some folks for whom this has worked and for whom "eat whatever" sounds like the the best advice, often fall short of understanding that not everyone on here has the same personal struggles, goals, and motivations. If the whole "eat whatever" mantra works for you, congratulations. You are in the majority. You are in good company. But your experience is not universal.
These are the reasons that I think a eat-whatever-you-want-within-your-calorie-allotment is sometimes unhelpful:
1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc. They don't yet have the emotional tools or the necessary support system to deal with depression, grief, anxiety, or whatever is bothering them on a deeper level. And let's face it—the emotional eater demographic probably makes up a fairly sizable minority here on MFP. I include myself in this group and am temporarily avoiding trigger foods (cake is a big one) while I get a handle on the underlying emotional issues. It's not like I'm banishing cake forever because of the notion that it's somehow "unclean," but it does get in the way of me sorting through the things that require attention, you know? And, like it or not, my brain is now kind of wired to use cake like a drug until I get those neurons firing in a different way.
2) A lot of these so-called junk foods are often not really very nourishing beyond their protein, fat, and carb content. Sure, you could eat McDonalds every day and still lose weight, but why would you want to do that to yourself? You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health. Yes, we're mostly talking about weight loss, but when eating at a deficit, you're more likely to become deficient in certain nutrients, so it stands to reason that nutrition should probably take center stage during the weight loss portion of a fitness journey. It's not a requirement, of course, but why wouldn't you want to take care of your body to the best of your ability?
3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are (a) short and (b) closer to a healthy weight. If you're 300 pounds and 5'9", you can still eat a lot of those things at 2000-2500 cals or more a day and continue to lose. If you're 150 pounds and 5'3", eating those foods in moderation while losing would require such minuscule portions that it would get sort of ridiculous unless you're really ratcheting up the exercise regimen and jogging for an hour a day or whatever. Even if you don't mind only eating a couple bites here and there, that still won't leave much room for the healthy nutrient-rich stuff mentioned in point 2. Eventually, small such small portions of these yummy foods become kind of a why bother thing for some of us, ya know? The only way it's really feasible and satisfying in any meaningful way—again, for SOME OF US—is if we decide to just give ourselves a few maintenance days where we eat enough to get what we want and/or need then go back to eating at a deficit. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly do it as part of my calorie cycling. But it can mean slower weight loss.
Anyway, sorry for the epic rant, guys, but I just felt that there were some glaring holes in this argument on both sides and wanted to bring in a different perspective.18 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »
This is incorrect.
Indeed!4 -
I'll take word of a Dietitian over this post.Absoultely agree, hate this if it fits your macro crap... carbs are not all the same, proteins are not all the same, fats/sugars/oils etc are not all the same.... yes a cheat meal is fine after a solid effort week but dont throw cheat meals in everyday cause it fits the basic macros some overpaid PT has told you to follow, they make money from your slow progress
The biggest and baddest bodybuilders will count every calorie and macro, because it counts and matters
Lollies = Carbs
Rice = Carbs
But theyre not the same carbs and the hidden macros behind it all will bite you in the *kitten* too17 -
Absoultely agree, hate this if it fits your macro crap... carbs are not all the same, proteins are not all the same, fats/sugars/oils etc are not all the same.... yes a cheat meal is fine after a solid effort week but dont throw cheat meals in everyday cause it fits the basic macros some overpaid PT has told you to follow, they make money from your slow progress
The biggest and baddest bodybuilders will count every calorie and macro, because it counts and matters
Lollies = Carbs
Rice = Carbs
But theyre not the same carbs and the hidden macros behind it all will bite you in the *kitten* too
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10348650/cico-still-skeptical-come-inside-for-a-meticulous-log-that-proves-it/p19 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »
This is incorrect.
Indeed!
There are two types of people in the world. Those who like pineapple on pizza. And those who are wrong
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Yeah no. When people say "Eat a deficit to lose" They're not saying "yes only eat high calorie junk food" No one in the right mind would honestly give that advice. They're simply saying that you can eat the foods you enjoy in moderation so long as you stay in your deficit. This is the grey area... You've gone into some crazy extreme which no one in the right mind would honestly consider. I.E Eating nothing but junkfood to lose weight.
"People don't want to" Are you honestly suggesting that all people think and eat the same? Yeah, no. I'm fine eating the correct 1 serve listed on things as I'm sure many other "People" are. Just because I choose to eat a few chips doesn't mean I will go off the rails and eat the whole pack. That's called a lack of discipline and self control and I understand that it's not foods fault I got fat, it's not the sugar industries fault, it's not burger kings. It's my fault and I'm capable of taking the responsibility for it. Demonizing food doesn't make being obese any less my fault.
I'm going to eat my pizza, which to me... Yes me. Is 100% worth the calories and if it upsets anyone, I'm sure you can find a dark room to weep in. Oh... and I've lost over 60lbs eating in MODERATION. Something that people need to learn to maintain. "Clean eating" for me is ridiculous and unsustainable. So no thank you
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Both sides have good points to make. Original post makes sense, and the junk food splurgers are really advocating the mildest of splurges, I'd say. Those calories really do add up quick.Just follow it with apple cider vinegar or green tea to reset your metabolism. Then you can eat whatever you like.
The Apple Cider House Rules, love that novel (and movie)!
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The exact same can be said of the OP's "advice".Detritus_1965 wrote: »"One step at a time" is possibly the only universal truth in this process, some may share long passages of the way, many will never even meet the same road, others seem to come to come the wrong way. We can offer assistance if asked for help, but please try not to "correct" the method found if not asked for guidance because most likely it will end up with a "sheep" that has lost it's way.
My point exactly1 -
NannersBalletLegs wrote: »
These are the reasons that I think a eat-whatever-you-want-within-your-calorie-allotment is sometimes unhelpful:
1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc. They don't yet have the emotional tools or the necessary support system to deal with depression, grief, anxiety, or whatever is bothering them on a deeper level. And let's face it—the emotional eater demographic probably makes up a fairly sizable minority here on MFP. I include myself in this group and am temporarily avoiding trigger foods (cake is a big one) while I get a handle on the underlying emotional issues. It's not like I'm banishing cake forever because of the notion that it's somehow "unclean," but it does get in the way of me sorting through the things that require attention, you know? And, like it or not, my brain is now kind of wired to use cake like a drug until I get those neurons firing in a different way.
2) A lot of these so-called junk foods are often not really very nourishing beyond their protein, fat, and carb content. Sure, you could eat McDonalds every day and still lose weight, but why would you want to do that to yourself? You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health. Yes, we're mostly talking about weight loss, but when eating at a deficit, you're more likely to become deficient in certain nutrients, so it stands to reason that nutrition should probably take center stage during the weight loss portion of a fitness journey. It's not a requirement, of course, but why wouldn't you want to take care of your body to the best of your ability?
3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are A) short and
closer to a healthy weight. If you're 300 pounds and 5'9", you can still eat a lot of those things at 2000-2500 cals or more a day and continue to lose. If you're 150 pounds and 5'3", eating those foods in moderation while losing would require such minuscule portions that it would get sort of ridiculous unless you're really ratcheting up the exercise regimen and jogging for an hour a day or whatever. Even if you don't mind only eating a couple bites here and there, that still won't leave much room for the healthy nutrient-rich stuff mentioned in point 2. Eventually, small such small portions of these yummy foods become kind of a why bother thing for some of us, ya know? The only way it's really feasible and satisfying in any meaningful way—again, for SOME OF US—is if we decide to just give ourselves a few maintenance days where we eat enough to get what we want and/or need then go back to eating at a deficit. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly do it as part of my calorie cycling. But it can mean slower weight loss.
1) So we are supposed to not offer anyone advice that wouldn't be good for binge eaters? Besides, over-restricting is a recipe for boomerang binge eating. I would actually suggest that learning to fit treats into your diet is far more healthy for binge/emotional eaters than to cut all junk food out of their diet.
2) Again, NO ONE says to eat just junk food. They say that you can eat some junk food and still lose weight. While one or two responses may JUST say you can eat whatever you want, countless others in the same thread will say that you can eat whatever you want to lose weight, BUT obviously you need to eat a nutritious balanced diet for your health.
3) As I said in my earlier post, I eat 1500 cals to lose, and I do fine eating a mix of 50% whole and 50% processed food. There is in fact vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein etc in many selections at McDonalds or any other fast food, as well as in processed foods you find at the store. This idea that only whole fresh foods have nutrition is simply not true. As long as you are paying attention to hitting your numbers and making smart choices, it's totally doable. Yes it can take some time to figure it out, but IMHO that time is more than worth it!
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I make it work by prelogging my day and looking first at calories and the protein goal.
I figured out early on to pair smaller portions of higher calorie foods with a bunch of lower calorie vegetables in a meal. It fills me up.
I also would choose maybe 1 higher calorie thing, not try to fit them all into one meal/day. So regular burger with salad and unsweetened tea vs triple bacon cheeseburger with fries and a peanut butter shake together. Not doughnuts for breakfast, stuffed crust pizza and garlic bread for lunch, and fried chicken, mashed potatoes, gravy, biscuits with butter for dinner and ice cream for a snack.
Use some common sense on how to still enjoy the foods you like in moderation.12 -
Tiny_Dancer_in_Pink wrote: »Absoultely agree, hate this if it fits your macro crap... carbs are not all the same, proteins are not all the same, fats/sugars/oils etc are not all the same.... yes a cheat meal is fine after a solid effort week but dont throw cheat meals in everyday cause it fits the basic macros some overpaid PT has told you to follow, they make money from your slow progress
The biggest and baddest bodybuilders will count every calorie and macro, because it counts and matters
Lollies = Carbs
Rice = Carbs
But theyre not the same carbs and the hidden macros behind it all will bite you in the *kitten* too
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10348650/cico-still-skeptical-come-inside-for-a-meticulous-log-that-proves-it/p1
Perfect counterpoint. And impressive results.5 -
NannersBalletLegs wrote: »1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc.
This is not about the food, really, though, and restricting can be even more problematic. Someone with a BED should consider getting help, but I would say different issues apply. (I'm an emotional eater, and even for that I know there's more to it than just watching calories -- I need to work on psychological triggers.)You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health.
Honestly, I think (a) someone who eats only junk food knows better and would do it no matter what people on MFP said, and (b) if you and I know that of course we should eat a healthful diet and that eating "whatever you want within your calories" doesn't mean only donuts or whatever (and, seriously, yuck, who would want to?), then why assume other people are too ignorant to figure that out? I think politeness requires assuming that most people have some common sense and get that "eat what you want within your calories" also involves "eat a nutritionally-balanced diet for health, including vegetables, protein, etc."3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are (a) short and (b) closer to a healthy weight.
It's not that hard, really. I'm 5'3, 125, and granted I have been mostly maintaining (although I ate plenty of ice cream and weekly restaurant dinners and so on losing from 140 to 125), but with exercise I could easily keep a deficit at this weight and eat ice cream or weekly restaurant splurges or some pizza (which need not be more than a normal dinner anyway), etc.
Yes, satiety is important, but absolutely no one says otherwise. This is not something that is ignored on MFP.11 -
Eating smaller quantities of normal foods is how most people who aren't overweight eat. It's how I always ate. I remember one time asking obese friends to get me a happy meal on a McDonald's run. They thought that was too little to fill up a person so they got me something bigger. I didn't eat it all.
Now, why am I here? I was injured and couldn't keep up my activity level, and between that and age I gained some. I still was barely in the overweight category but I need to lose it and retrain myself to portions the right size for my current activity level, as well as watch done specific nutrients for genetic health issues. If I always stay away from junk I'm going to give up. So yes, I eat what I want for the most part, but just smaller amounts.11 -
OP? Hello?
23 -
I lost 60 lbs eating what I wanted, just less of it. But you're right. That 1600 calories I was limiting myself to made it hard to make a meal out of some things. So, I made up for it by burning a ton of calories on my bicycle. Now I'm burning even more calories and I'm eating about four meals a day just to keep from losing weight.8
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NannersBalletLegs wrote: »
These are the reasons that I think a eat-whatever-you-want-within-your-calorie-allotment is sometimes unhelpful:
1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc. They don't yet have the emotional tools or the necessary support system to deal with depression, grief, anxiety, or whatever is bothering them on a deeper level. And let's face it—the emotional eater demographic probably makes up a fairly sizable minority here on MFP. I include myself in this group and am temporarily avoiding trigger foods (cake is a big one) while I get a handle on the underlying emotional issues. It's not like I'm banishing cake forever because of the notion that it's somehow "unclean," but it does get in the way of me sorting through the things that require attention, you know? And, like it or not, my brain is now kind of wired to use cake like a drug until I get those neurons firing in a different way.
2) A lot of these so-called junk foods are often not really very nourishing beyond their protein, fat, and carb content. Sure, you could eat McDonalds every day and still lose weight, but why would you want to do that to yourself? You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health. Yes, we're mostly talking about weight loss, but when eating at a deficit, you're more likely to become deficient in certain nutrients, so it stands to reason that nutrition should probably take center stage during the weight loss portion of a fitness journey. It's not a requirement, of course, but why wouldn't you want to take care of your body to the best of your ability?
3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are A) short and closer to a healthy weight. If you're 300 pounds and 5'9", you can still eat a lot of those things at 2000-2500 cals or more a day and continue to lose. If you're 150 pounds and 5'3", eating those foods in moderation while losing would require such minuscule portions that it would get sort of ridiculous unless you're really ratcheting up the exercise regimen and jogging for an hour a day or whatever. Even if you don't mind only eating a couple bites here and there, that still won't leave much room for the healthy nutrient-rich stuff mentioned in point 2. Eventually, small such small portions of these yummy foods become kind of a why bother thing for some of us, ya know? The only way it's really feasible and satisfying in any meaningful way—again, for SOME OF US—is if we decide to just give ourselves a few maintenance days where we eat enough to get what we want and/or need then go back to eating at a deficit. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly do it as part of my calorie cycling. But it can mean slower weight loss.
1) So we are supposed to not offer anyone advice that wouldn't be good for binge eaters? Besides, over-restricting is a recipe for boomerang binge eating. I would actually suggest that learning to fit treats into your diet is far more healthy for binge/emotional eaters than to cut all junk food out of their diet.
2) Again, NO ONE says to eat just junk food. They say that you can eat some junk food and still lose weight. While one or two responses may JUST say you can eat whatever you want, countless others in the same thread will say that you can eat whatever you want to lose weight, BUT obviously you need to eat a nutritious balanced diet for your health.
3) As I said in my earlier post, I eat 1500 cals to lose, and I do fine eating a mix of 50% whole and 50% processed food. There is in fact vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein etc in many selections at McDonalds or any other fast food, as well as in processed foods you find at the store. This idea that only whole fresh foods have nutrition is simply not true. As long as you are paying attention to hitting your numbers and making smart choices, it's totally doable. Yes it can take some time to figure it out, but IMHO that time is more than worth it!
1) Of course learning to fit in treats in moderation is the best approach long-term, but it may not be possible for emotional eaters until they start dealing with the underlying issue first.
2) If you read what I wrote there more closely, you'll see that I acknowledged that I don't think "eat junk everyday" is what most folks are advocating in these kinds of threads. Here is the direct quote: "I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as 'eat whatever you want' and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences." To reiterate, the problem I have is the way that so many CICO folks oversimplify the process to the advice-seeking noobs. They brag about how much chocolate and how many cheeseburgers they get to eat while losing weight while dismissing how difficult moderation can be for chronic overeaters and conveniently forgetting to mention how terrible for you an all-junk-food diet would be. Yes, some do acknowledge nutrition, but I am finding that those who actually do so are disappointingly rare. No one really says to not eat all junk food all the time...but I almost never see those same folks who brag about their cheeseburger and chocolate consumption bragging about all the healthy, nutritious foods they eat in addition to those cheeseburgers and chocolate bars.
3) Again, you're pointing out something I already acknowledged. McDonalds has some nutritional value. Of course it does. But you cannot tell me that it can give you everything fresh fruits and vegetables, nuts, legumes, etc. can give you. Antioxidants loom quite large in this regard, as do omega 3 fatty acids. And McDonalds and other fast food is pumped up with all kinds of sodium, trans fats, etc, so you get the macros and a few other things, but you also ingest some of the unhealthy stuff with it. P.S. I eat some processed and even fast foods from time to time (as long as they're not emotional eating triggers). I'm not a dietary saint and certainly not advocating that. I just really think it's important to acknowledge that these foods aren't healthy, even though they can be eaten in moderation while losing weight. Again, there's way too much emphasis on weight and not enough on nutrition in these threads, it seems.9 -
Well my experience says otherwise.
I did the whole over restriction diet thing in 2012. Sure I lost weight, but there also came a point where temptation got the best of me and I binged. After that I fell into old habits and gained back 1/3 of what I had lost (20 lbs). All in less than 1 year.
2013 I started using MFP. Lurked in the forums. Ended up buying a food scale, fitness tracker, and learning about macros. I fully accepted the stay within calories while eating what you like mindset. I learned how to look at my calories from a weekly perspective instead of just daily. You know what, I've only gained 2x since then. 1st was pregnancy and by implementing my routine again after pregnancy I lost that gain in 6-7 months. The second time was poor logging and choices. I only gained 10 lbs and decided to do recomp instead. 10 lbs out of the 138 I had lost...thats minor. Sure I am sitting at 128 lbs lost, but I have been here for months now and I am okay with that.
Point is I would still be obese had I not included everything in my "diet". There is actually the possibility that i would have gained even more weight.10 -
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lemurcat12 wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »
This is incorrect.
Preach!3
This discussion has been closed.
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