"You can eat whaver you want, as long as you eat at a deficit" is true, but it's garbage advice.
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Gosh, you were certainly burned at the stake. I think what you said made sense. I have suffered from this awful binge eating disorder for 34 non stop years, even was part of an eating disorder program for 8 months and had to take a leave of absence from work to attend, and what you said def is my way to go as well. If the replies you got are the norm around here, I shall refrain from posting or reading too much. I am too sensitive and volatile and did not come here to cat fight.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
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I've been losing weight in part because I finally stopped demonising food. My current mantra is "A treat is not a cheat."
I've accepted that I will never be happy 'virtuously' eating carrot sticks when everyone around me is having cake. Instead, I figure out ahead of time what it will take for me to enjoy what's on my plate, I check the calories, I log it... and then I eat what I planned for. And when I take it, that's all I get. I don't have the side of guilt and negativity that always got included.
What I don't do is mindless nibbling, second (third?) helpings of calorie-dense foods, or feel like I'm missing out if I didn't sample EVERYTHING.
And you know something? I've dropped 44 lbs in six months, my blood pressure is down, my doctor is thrilled and I feel great! And the 54 grams of jelly beans I had for a snack this morning haven't derailed a blessed thing!16 -
AZIZAELLAZIZA wrote: »Gosh, you were certainly burned at the stake. I think what you said made sense. I have suffered from this awful binge eating disorder for 34 non stop years, even was part of an eating disorder program for 8 months and had to take a leave of absence from work to attend, and what you said def is my way to go as well. If the replies you got are the norm around here, I shall refrain from posting or reading too much. I am too sensitive and volatile and did not come here to cat fight.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
Generalized advice may not work for you with your disorder. Some people call the BMI scale trash for a similar reason, but they're taking it out of its intended context.
You should stick around and reach out if you feel like doing so. There are many here who have been through what you have.13 -
I dont demonise foods, but there are certain foods that i avoid because the "serving size" or ridiculous amount of calories for a small amount of food is just not worth it for me. I just have trouble, or i don't want to stop eating these foods once i hit my calorie limit, and then most often than not I'm still hungry or unsatisfied afterward and I'll end up eating more and going over my calories. So for some foods, abstinence works better for me than moderation.7
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Most here agree that there are different needs for dieting if you have had an eating disorder. It makes it a lot harder, and for some saying foods are off limit is okay. But for the run of the mill dieter, it isn't needed.AZIZAELLAZIZA wrote: »Gosh, you were certainly burned at the stake. I think what you said made sense. I have suffered from this awful binge eating disorder for 34 non stop years, even was part of an eating disorder program for 8 months and had to take a leave of absence from work to attend, and what you said def is my way to go as well. If the replies you got are the norm around here, I shall refrain from posting or reading too much. I am too sensitive and volatile and did not come here to cat fight.People don't want to eat 1 slice of pizza, or a 1/4 of a plate of Loco Rice, or 7 chili cheese fries. They want to have a meal. If you eat the "right amount" of junk food to stay within your calorie limits, you're going to be starving to death and it's going to cause you to eat more. Eating food that doesn't taste as good as what you want is much better than satisfying a craving and then derailing later because you were so hungry you caved. There are a few people around here who have done their time, lost their weight, and they are in good shape. These people give advice from the "look at me, I lost a ton of weight so I know what I'm doing" stand point, but seem to have forgotten what it was like to ACTUALLY live as a fat person. So when someone tells you you can have junk food, don't listen to them, not because they are lying to you - they aren't, it's true - but because the advice isn't helpful in practice.
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I think your post is a little offensive. People don't have the mindset of "look at me I'm skinny now I no better than you". I'd take advice any day from formerly heavy people. I'm fat, I don't no what I'm doing. They've been there, done that, they NO what's worked and if they are willing to provide information and examples from their own journeys that might help someone else then I'll listen ANYDAY.
All hail pizza and chilli cheese fries!!!!10 -
New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.17
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prattiger65 wrote: »New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.
I'm not throwing shade. I'm sharing my opinion with the OP.3 -
prattiger65 wrote: »New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.
I'm not throwing shade. I'm sharing my opinion with the OP.
I think they were talking to the OP.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »NannersBalletLegs wrote: »1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc.
This is not about the food, really, though, and restricting can be even more problematic. Someone with a BED should consider getting help, but I would say different issues apply. (I'm an emotional eater, and even for that I know there's more to it than just watching calories -- I need to work on psychological triggers.)You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health.
Honestly, I think (a) someone who eats only junk food knows better and would do it no matter what people on MFP said, and (b) if you and I know that of course we should eat a healthful diet and that eating "whatever you want within your calories" doesn't mean only donuts or whatever (and, seriously, yuck, who would want to?), then why assume other people are too ignorant to figure that out? I think politeness requires assuming that most people have some common sense and get that "eat what you want within your calories" also involves "eat a nutritionally-balanced diet for health, including vegetables, protein, etc."3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are (a) short and (b) closer to a healthy weight.
It's not that hard, really. I'm 5'3, 125, and granted I have been mostly maintaining (although I ate plenty of ice cream and weekly restaurant dinners and so on losing from 140 to 125), but with exercise I could easily keep a deficit at this weight and eat ice cream or weekly restaurant splurges or some pizza (which need not be more than a normal dinner anyway), etc.
Yes, satiety is important, but absolutely no one says otherwise. This is not something that is ignored on MFP.
Yes, someone with any eating disorder should absolutely get help. MFP will never be an appropriate stand-in for a qualified mental health professional. I am glad to hear from a fellow emotional eater. I know that our perspectives and experiences probably vary in spite of that. In my own experience, removing the foods that I use as a crutch to suppress my feelings has actually helped me make progress in working through those feelings. There have been so many times in the past that I would just buy or bake a cake and eat the whole thing in a day to avoid addressing something that is bothering me. Now, I tell myself, "Okay. We can't go to cake for help today. We need to stop, breathe, figure out where this is coming from, and formulate an appropriate response. Are we lonely? Maybe we should call a friend? Are we anxious? Maybe we should go for a run on the treadmill and burn off some excess energy or maybe just meditate." Giving cake and a few other items the boot (albeit temporarily) has given me a lot of freedom to explore my feelings in greater depth and keep them from running my life. Again, I'm speaking about my own experience and don't assume to understand yours. I do know that I've met a lot of others like me on here, though.
I think you're probably right in saying that most people know that McDonald's, pizza, whatever, isn't technically good for you and that they would probably eat it regardless of what anyone is telling them. Perhaps my assertion that CICO advocates should be qualifying their advice with nutritional caveats is unfair for this reason. However, I do think that far too many tend to make a fetish of their ability to "eat anything" and still lose weight. Many are also far too quick to assume that when someone is saying that "eat whatever and still lose weight is bad advice" that that means that someone is somehow trying to take away their chocolate and their cheeseburgers. It's silly.
Your point about being able to include more of those foods with added exercise is well taken, and I did try to address that at some point in a previous reply. However, I didn't really want to go into the subject of intense physical exercise, because it's not something that everyone can do. Disabilities and injuries can make obtaining a caloric deficit through exercise far more difficult—not impossible—but definitely more challenging. I guess I was trying to be more inclusive by not going into that.
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estherdragonbat wrote: »prattiger65 wrote: »New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.
I'm not throwing shade. I'm sharing my opinion with the OP.
I think they were talking to the OP.
Oh, whoops. Bit defensive, sorry @prattiger658 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »prattiger65 wrote: »New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.
I'm not throwing shade. I'm sharing my opinion with the OP.
I think they were talking to the OP.
Oh, whoops. Bit defensive, sorry @prattiger65
not a problem. I have learned that you can't have thin skin around here. But yeah, that was directed at the op.
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prattiger65 wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »prattiger65 wrote: »New poster throwing shade on successful posters........200% legit.
I'm not throwing shade. I'm sharing my opinion with the OP.
I think they were talking to the OP.
Oh, whoops. Bit defensive, sorry @prattiger65
not a problem. I have learned that you can't have thin skin around here. But yeah, that was directed at the op.
Yes, very much so. Texts have no context sometimes. Easy to read things wrong5 -
You guys just take every single word someone writes literally, to the t. I don't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life not eating things you enjoy. I also don't mean that you can NEVER have things you enjoy, or that are calorie dense. What I do mean, and was obvious in the original post, that is if you aren't just looking for something to complain about, is that dieting under the idea that "you can have whatever, so long as it fits in your calorie count" is not an effective long term solution because MOST people, especially larger people, run out of calories waaaaay before they become satiated. If you are a 135lb woman that's 5'9 which I think was an example somewhere in this thread, and you're only eating at a 500 calorie deficit, no *kitten* you are gonna be full before you run out of calories. You're small, even if you aren't at your "goal" you are going to feel satiated. If you are the kind of person who is accustomed to eating 3500-4000 calories a day and your prescribed amount is 2500, there is absolutely NO WAY that you can eat the calorie dense foods you enjoy, but at a lower quantity, and not be absolutely starving to death. Which will lead to a derailment in most people. Contrary to popular belief, will power is not a dominant trait. So there you go, here's another post for you guys to pick apart to for *kitten* that is obviously not what I meant.3
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I'm not in the business of being patronising and condescending and I won't pick apart your opinion, but I will give mine. And I did. Which is what your post was originally intended as, YOUR opinion. No ones is wrong, just different.9
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You're right.
People just looking for something to complain about are super annoying.19 -
All I can say is you and I must be reading very different threads. I see posters go out of their way to mention "but, nutrition" all the time.
And I'm sorry, but it is kind of condescending to suggest that the average newbie doesn't realize that nutrition is important without being explicitly told that in every single reply. I don't think the concept that "weight loss" and "health" are two related but different things is such an intellectual leap for most.
And just to add to the whole thread - I have never seen a post from someone who is struggling because everyone here told them to eat all junk food and now they're hungry. I have seen plenty of posts from folks saying that learning from mfp that it's OK to eat treats in moderation was a huge factor in their success.
NannersBalletLegs wrote: »NannersBalletLegs wrote: »
These are the reasons that I think a eat-whatever-you-want-within-your-calorie-allotment is sometimes unhelpful:
1) Many binge eaters and emotional eaters continue to be triggered by calorie-dense, super-satiating foods, because they haven't yet worked through the underlying psychological issues that are causing them to overeat and feel an overwhelming urge to numb or soothe themselves with ice cream, cake, pizza, french fries, etc. They don't yet have the emotional tools or the necessary support system to deal with depression, grief, anxiety, or whatever is bothering them on a deeper level. And let's face it—the emotional eater demographic probably makes up a fairly sizable minority here on MFP. I include myself in this group and am temporarily avoiding trigger foods (cake is a big one) while I get a handle on the underlying emotional issues. It's not like I'm banishing cake forever because of the notion that it's somehow "unclean," but it does get in the way of me sorting through the things that require attention, you know? And, like it or not, my brain is now kind of wired to use cake like a drug until I get those neurons firing in a different way.
2) A lot of these so-called junk foods are often not really very nourishing beyond their protein, fat, and carb content. Sure, you could eat McDonalds every day and still lose weight, but why would you want to do that to yourself? You need fruit and veggies and other micronutrient and antioxidant rich foods to fuel your body properly and keep it in the best condition possible. I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as "eat whatever you want" and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences. Someone who takes this advice to heart might lose weight but still end up in really poor health. Yes, we're mostly talking about weight loss, but when eating at a deficit, you're more likely to become deficient in certain nutrients, so it stands to reason that nutrition should probably take center stage during the weight loss portion of a fitness journey. It's not a requirement, of course, but why wouldn't you want to take care of your body to the best of your ability?
3) It is a lot, LOT harder to fit in calorie-dense foods while still eating at a deficit when you are A) short and
closer to a healthy weight. If you're 300 pounds and 5'9", you can still eat a lot of those things at 2000-2500 cals or more a day and continue to lose. If you're 150 pounds and 5'3", eating those foods in moderation while losing would require such minuscule portions that it would get sort of ridiculous unless you're really ratcheting up the exercise regimen and jogging for an hour a day or whatever. Even if you don't mind only eating a couple bites here and there, that still won't leave much room for the healthy nutrient-rich stuff mentioned in point 2. Eventually, small such small portions of these yummy foods become kind of a why bother thing for some of us, ya know? The only way it's really feasible and satisfying in any meaningful way—again, for SOME OF US—is if we decide to just give ourselves a few maintenance days where we eat enough to get what we want and/or need then go back to eating at a deficit. There's nothing wrong with that, and I certainly do it as part of my calorie cycling. But it can mean slower weight loss.
1) So we are supposed to not offer anyone advice that wouldn't be good for binge eaters? Besides, over-restricting is a recipe for boomerang binge eating. I would actually suggest that learning to fit treats into your diet is far more healthy for binge/emotional eaters than to cut all junk food out of their diet.
2) Again, NO ONE says to eat just junk food. They say that you can eat some junk food and still lose weight. While one or two responses may JUST say you can eat whatever you want, countless others in the same thread will say that you can eat whatever you want to lose weight, BUT obviously you need to eat a nutritious balanced diet for your health.
3) As I said in my earlier post, I eat 1500 cals to lose, and I do fine eating a mix of 50% whole and 50% processed food. There is in fact vitamins, minerals, fiber, protein etc in many selections at McDonalds or any other fast food, as well as in processed foods you find at the store. This idea that only whole fresh foods have nutrition is simply not true. As long as you are paying attention to hitting your numbers and making smart choices, it's totally doable. Yes it can take some time to figure it out, but IMHO that time is more than worth it!
1) Of course learning to fit in treats in moderation is the best approach long-term, but it may not be possible for emotional eaters until they start dealing with the underlying issue first.
2) If you read what I wrote there more closely, you'll see that I acknowledged that I don't think "eat junk everyday" is what most folks are advocating in these kinds of threads. Here is the direct quote: "I know none of you are saying it's fine to just eat McD's and pizza every day, but I do think that there is a tendency to oversimplify the CICO thing as 'eat whatever you want' and lose weight without acknowledging some of the other consequences." To reiterate, the problem I have is the way that so many CICO folks oversimplify the process to the advice-seeking noobs. They brag about how much chocolate and how many cheeseburgers they get to eat while losing weight while dismissing how difficult moderation can be for chronic overeaters and conveniently forgetting to mention how terrible for you an all-junk-food diet would be. Yes, some do acknowledge nutrition, but I am finding that those who actually do so are disappointingly rare. No one really says to not eat all junk food all the time...but I almost never see those same folks who brag about their cheeseburger and chocolate consumption bragging about all the healthy, nutritious foods they eat in addition to those cheeseburgers and chocolate bars.
3) Again, you're pointing out something I already acknowledged. McDonalds has some nutritional value. Of course it does. But you cannot tell me that it can give you everything fresh fruits and vegetables, nuts, legumes, etc. can give you. Antioxidants loom quite large in this regard, as do omega 3 fatty acids. And McDonalds and other fast food is pumped up with all kinds of sodium, trans fats, etc, so you get the macros and a few other things, but you also ingest some of the unhealthy stuff with it. P.S. I eat some processed and even fast foods from time to time (as long as they're not emotional eating triggers). I'm not a dietary saint and certainly not advocating that. I just really think it's important to acknowledge that these foods aren't healthy, even though they can be eaten in moderation while losing weight. Again, there's way too much emphasis on weight and not enough on nutrition in these threads, it seems.
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annacole94 wrote: »Do you feel better getting that out?
I'm going to keep having my daily chocolate, thank you. Learning portion control, calorie banking, and that Domino's pizza isn't worth the calories is part of learning how to live life at a lower weight. If the advice isn't helpful to you because you inevitably binge, it's because it's bad advice FOR YOU. Some people can moderate, others do better if they abstain.
Actually I tried Domino's new cracker crust pizza this weekend, and it was damn delicious. And well worth the 400 calories or so. I generally stay away from pizza now, as it just too hard to have one slice, but the cracker crust style is right up my alley. I had about 1/3 of a medium, and my BF polished off the rest. I have not had Domino's in probably 25 years. I was happily surprised!8 -
annacole94 wrote: »You're right.
People just looking for something to complain about are super annoying.
That irony isn't it? I'm sure it is. I concur.
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