Counting calories..Or not
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Ironandwine69 wrote: »Is calorie counting really sustainable on a long term basis?
The theory of calorie in - calorie out is flawed from a thermodynamics perspective [1]. However, it seems to be working within the Western culture because most of the food consumed here is not really food but man-made food-type substances that are made in big plants [2].
And hence, the need to count those calories which can cause insulin spikes like crazy. Plus, the added preservatives come as a bonus.
When you eat mostly whole foods, cooked at home (coz all restaurants care about is taste which often comes at the cost of lots of oil, salt, and sugar), one will not have to count calories at all and the person will weigh less and feel awesome.
You'll literally burn more fat if you overload yourself with plants, vegetables, green leaves, nuts, fruits, etc. It's a concept called energy density [3].
But if we're talking burgers, Mac n Cheese, Store bought pasta, bread, etc and calling them food - then I guess caloric restriction does seem to help by starving the body where it begins to burn fat until a point after which it starts burning muscle.
Since we have a lot of folks here who count calories which is nothing wrong I think but was that a lie told by the fitness industry to get people all amped up about a concept that a 2nd grader can understand?
I'd ask you to talk to the fittest friends in your peer group and ask them if they count calories. Curious to know the answers across diff. geography.
References -
1. http://tim.blog/2008/02/25/the-science-of-fat-loss-why-a-calorie-isnt-always-a-calorie/
2. https://www.amazon.com/Food-Rules-Eaters-Michael-Pollan/dp/014311638X
3. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eating-more-to-weigh-less/
Sorry. Incorrect. Move along...
Move along????Is this high school??
At least he provided sources, where are yours?
And I'm not saying I agree with what he said.
Sources, a blog, a book and a video...
LMAO...
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Ironandwine69 wrote: »Is calorie counting really sustainable on a long term basis?
The theory of calorie in - calorie out is flawed from a thermodynamics perspective [1]. However, it seems to be working within the Western culture because most of the food consumed here is not really food but man-made food-type substances that are made in big plants [2].
And hence, the need to count those calories which can cause insulin spikes like crazy. Plus, the added preservatives come as a bonus.
When you eat mostly whole foods, cooked at home (coz all restaurants care about is taste which often comes at the cost of lots of oil, salt, and sugar), one will not have to count calories at all and the person will weigh less and feel awesome.
You'll literally burn more fat if you overload yourself with plants, vegetables, green leaves, nuts, fruits, etc. It's a concept called energy density [3].
But if we're talking burgers, Mac n Cheese, Store bought pasta, bread, etc and calling them food - then I guess caloric restriction does seem to help by starving the body where it begins to burn fat until a point after which it starts burning muscle.
Since we have a lot of folks here who count calories which is nothing wrong I think but was that a lie told by the fitness industry to get people all amped up about a concept that a 2nd grader can understand?
I'd ask you to talk to the fittest friends in your peer group and ask them if they count calories. Curious to know the answers across diff. geography.
References -
1. http://tim.blog/2008/02/25/the-science-of-fat-loss-why-a-calorie-isnt-always-a-calorie/
2. https://www.amazon.com/Food-Rules-Eaters-Michael-Pollan/dp/014311638X
3. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eating-more-to-weigh-less/
Sorry. Incorrect. Move along...
Move along????Is this high school??
At least he provided sources, where are yours?
And I'm not saying I agree with what he said.
why does one need sources to disprove false information?4 -
Ah yes, that well known reliable source Nutrition Facts that actually has very little interest in facts unless we're talking facts of the alternative variety.
I have indulged in a little experiment today. I thought I'd just have what I fancy and log it afterwards. I planned my dinner as i have some leftovers but also did a grocery shop.
I'm right on maintenance for the day, if it was an exercise day I'd have a little room for more. I seem to have naturally tempered the desire to eat all the things, partly because I'm actually stuffed at this point so won't need my dinner for hours yet (it's 3.50pm here, I eat dinner anywhere from 5pm-9pm).
Now whilst that is pretty satisfying and a nice test of how far I've come in terms of knowing what are appropriate amounts of foods for me to eat i don't know that I will wing it forever once I hit maintenance. As someone else said, the anxiety of knowing largely what I'm consuming vs some sort of perceived freedom that comes from not counting is the better choice for me. Everyone is different.
And yes, I also stayed overweight eating largely whole foods prepared at home, including 10 years as a vegetarian. I'm a foodie, I like to try things, I was a little over-enthusiastic about trying larger than necessary portions of those things.7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ironandwine69 wrote: »Before attending these boards I had been with Precision Nutrition. Over there we never count calories. In fact, they don't believe counting is a "leverage point"--meaning that it is not worth the time-investment. So I've never weighed anything in my life. If you cared, you could look at my food blog and you would see that my feedings are super clean, super boring, and my goals are met predictably. So counting isn't the only way.
Time investment is exactly my point when I say too time consuming.
The big misunderstanding from some people who posted on this blog, is that not counting means eat what you want.
No, that's not the case.
I watch what I eat very carefully. I am not the cleanest eater but I don't eat junk. IF has been my lifestyle for years( which probably makes not counting easier since I get 80% - 90% of my food intake in one meal).
To wrap this up, I think counting is a great tool. But also, I don't know anyone that counted all his/her life( maybe there are people that do, but I wonder how many). What happens when/if you stop counting?...
That's a fair question.
What would happen if I were to stop counting?
Well, I also IF, but I eat within a window. I'd still eat within that window and to the schedule I currently eat. I pretty much know which foods have a good satiety/caloric ratio and would stick to them and would try my best to pay attention to my hunger cues, though they are admittedly broken. I would eat slowly and mindfully just to the point of being no longer hungry. I'd weigh daily like I do now and track the trend, making adjustments to intake as necessary to prevent scale creep.
So I know what I'd do, I just prefer to count calories and log because to me it removes an element of guesswork that would leave me feeling anxious.
Different strokes for different folks.
Do you mind me asking, how long have you been counting?0 -
You know, I do know how you feel. 1 comment was you're on a calorie count website, but here's the thing. I was intaking basically all raw diet and feeling fabulous, but I found I was losing weight as quickly as I was when I was Calorie Counting on the "CalorieCount" website. I lost 10 pounds! So, even though I am sticking with my food plan, I've decided that I need to know for my own sanity how many calories I'm intaking in a day. I hope this is helpful to decide is it really important to count calories.2
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Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
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coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I cook from scratch six nights a week and I don't find it stressful at all to use the Recipe Builder. I'm not trying to discount your experience, but it's not the case for everyone who is counting calories and cooking a lot.7 -
Ironandwine69 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Ironandwine69 wrote: »Before attending these boards I had been with Precision Nutrition. Over there we never count calories. In fact, they don't believe counting is a "leverage point"--meaning that it is not worth the time-investment. So I've never weighed anything in my life. If you cared, you could look at my food blog and you would see that my feedings are super clean, super boring, and my goals are met predictably. So counting isn't the only way.
Time investment is exactly my point when I say too time consuming.
The big misunderstanding from some people who posted on this blog, is that not counting means eat what you want.
No, that's not the case.
I watch what I eat very carefully. I am not the cleanest eater but I don't eat junk. IF has been my lifestyle for years( which probably makes not counting easier since I get 80% - 90% of my food intake in one meal).
To wrap this up, I think counting is a great tool. But also, I don't know anyone that counted all his/her life( maybe there are people that do, but I wonder how many). What happens when/if you stop counting?...
That's a fair question.
What would happen if I were to stop counting?
Well, I also IF, but I eat within a window. I'd still eat within that window and to the schedule I currently eat. I pretty much know which foods have a good satiety/caloric ratio and would stick to them and would try my best to pay attention to my hunger cues, though they are admittedly broken. I would eat slowly and mindfully just to the point of being no longer hungry. I'd weigh daily like I do now and track the trend, making adjustments to intake as necessary to prevent scale creep.
So I know what I'd do, I just prefer to count calories and log because to me it removes an element of guesswork that would leave me feeling anxious.
Different strokes for different folks.
Do you mind me asking, how long have you been counting?
A little over two years, but I've been dealing with my weight issues for 40 years and tried lots of different solutions.
This clicks in a way nothing else ever has and has gotten me the results I've always wanted and never achieved.7 -
coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I don't agree at all, and again I pointed out how I do it upthread in some detail. I rarely use the recipe function (which isn't that great, IMO), and don't find it stressful a bit. I really don't understand how putting ingredients on the scale when chopping makes it so much more burdensome or stressful. (And I say this as someone who is so lazy that I don't really like logging, but the actual weighing of the ingredients seems easier to do when actually cooking from scratch, IMO).4 -
Ironandwine69 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »You're on a calorie counting website...
I thought this site was called "My fitness pal", not "counting calories.com"
This does explain all the pushback, though.
It's like going on a bodybuilder's site and saying, "All this heavy lifting, I'd rather lift the pink weights 10,00o reps, who's with me?"
Pretty sure there's gonna be some Push.Back.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I cook from scratch six nights a week and I don't find it stressful at all to use the Recipe Builder. I'm not trying to discount your experience, but it's not the case for everyone who is counting calories and cooking a lot.
I think, at least for me, it isn't so much stressful but more like.....awkward (for lack of a better word). It is the learning of a new habit and kind of throws me for a loop sometimes. I have always been the kind of cook that adds a dash of this, a sprinkling of that, etc. and never really measured too closely. I follow recipes, but tend to jazz them up, or tweak them to suit my tastes. I also like to be creative in the kitchen. Trying to wrap my brain around measuring things and then writing it down (or logging it) was/is new to me and sometimes it feels like it takes a lot of time. Not so much because it really does (it is probably only an extra 5 mins most days), but because it has changed my cooking "groove". Just like with everything else, it is a new habit and in time will probably feel like auto pilot, but getting into the habit can sometimes feel time consuming.
Honestly, my biggest complaint at this point is that I hate to add too many recipes to my recipe builder because (on the website version) it makes it so hard to find recipes because we don't have a search function or ability to categorize recipes. But, that is a different thread for a different day!
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janejellyroll wrote: »coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I cook from scratch six nights a week and I don't find it stressful at all to use the Recipe Builder. I'm not trying to discount your experience, but it's not the case for everyone who is counting calories and cooking a lot.
I think, at least for me, it isn't so much stressful but more like.....awkward (for lack of a better word). It is the learning of a new habit and kind of throws me for a loop sometimes. I have always been the kind of cook that adds a dash of this, a sprinkling of that, etc. and never really measured too closely. I follow recipes, but tend to jazz them up, or tweak them to suit my tastes. I also like to be creative in the kitchen. Trying to wrap my brain around measuring things and then writing it down (or logging it) was/is new to me and sometimes it feels like it takes a lot of time. Not so much because it really does (it is probably only an extra 5 mins most days), but because it has changed my cooking "groove". Just like with everything else, it is a new habit and in time will probably feel like auto pilot, but getting into the habit can sometimes feel time consuming.
Honestly, my biggest complaint at this point is that I hate to add too many recipes to my recipe builder because (on the website version) it makes it so hard to find recipes because we don't have a search function or ability to categorize recipes. But, that is a different thread for a different day!
This makes sense. I am not a cook who makes a lot of calorically significant changes (I might add some more salt or lemon juice), so I don't have to worry about that issue. I can understand it might be different for other people.
The lack of organization in the Recipe Builder can be a headache sometimes, I feel you there!0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I cook from scratch six nights a week and I don't find it stressful at all to use the Recipe Builder. I'm not trying to discount your experience, but it's not the case for everyone who is counting calories and cooking a lot.
I think, at least for me, it isn't so much stressful but more like.....awkward (for lack of a better word). It is the learning of a new habit and kind of throws me for a loop sometimes. I have always been the kind of cook that adds a dash of this, a sprinkling of that, etc. and never really measured too closely. I follow recipes, but tend to jazz them up, or tweak them to suit my tastes. I also like to be creative in the kitchen. Trying to wrap my brain around measuring things and then writing it down (or logging it) was/is new to me and sometimes it feels like it takes a lot of time. Not so much because it really does (it is probably only an extra 5 mins most days), but because it has changed my cooking "groove". Just like with everything else, it is a new habit and in time will probably feel like auto pilot, but getting into the habit can sometimes feel time consuming.
Honestly, my biggest complaint at this point is that I hate to add too many recipes to my recipe builder because (on the website version) it makes it so hard to find recipes because we don't have a search function or ability to categorize recipes. But, that is a different thread for a different day!
I hate cooking from recipes and also always add a dash of this or what seems right of that.
Logging isn't a problem, since I don't mind taking notes (or using it as a memory workout and going to the computer every once in a while during breaks). I actually hate measuring things, but I don't mind weighing (this is why I think the scale is way easier than the cups method), and do it with the bowl I'm cooking it or as part of my scale process either just before tossing things in a pan or (ideally) when creating a mise en place (again, when chopping).
It probably is making it a habit, as I thought weighing SOUNDED crazy and burdensome when I started, but now enjoy it (even though the logging part isn't my favorite, mainly because MFP makes it too hard to find the right entries -- I prefer it on Chronometer).
I kind of like it too because if I do create something amazing that I want to remember, I have the recipe right there, in my log.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I don't agree at all, and again I pointed out how I do it upthread in some detail. I rarely use the recipe function (which isn't that great, IMO), and don't find it stressful a bit. I really don't understand how putting ingredients on the scale when chopping makes it so much more burdensome or stressful. (And I say this as someone who is so lazy that I don't really like logging, but the actual weighing of the ingredients seems easier to do when actually cooking from scratch, IMO).
i cook from scratch often too and i agree that it's absolutely not any harder for me to use my scale than to use measuring cups etc. and while the recipe builder can seriously crap out sometimes (i spent 15 minutes building a recipe today that wouldn't save) i find it super useful when it's functioning. i especially like if for things that i make a lot, as i can just open up the recipe for editing and adjust the grams as i go.
it's super quick for batch cooking too, which i do a lot of. if i make a batch of 10 breakfast burritos from my recipe that's 2 weeks worth of work day breakfasts that i can log in under 10 seconds. at this point i've got my recipes built up so that even if i use different ingredients (different veg that looks good or is on special) they're all already options in my recipe. i add grams to the ingredients i am currently working with and zero out anything i'm omitting.
and if i'm improvising in the kitchen and i make something super yummy i can just go back to that entry and recreate it with confidence that it will be just as yummy as when it was an experiment.*
i honestly think i'll be counting calories for a looooong time. i'm pretty susceptible to portion size creep which is how i gained the weight previously lost back again. a few more noodles every serving over the course of years really adds up. i'm ok with it. i like mfp. i like the forums, i like the groups, i like the data. imma be cool just chilling here for a while.**
*i'm not advocating for the builder as better than adding ingredients any other way, just offering another n1.
**providing i'm not banned and barring force majeure
ETA: to build off of what @lemurcat12 said regarding the cumbersome nature of finding the right entries in the database, i do like that once i've found them and entered them into a recipe in grams i don't have to do it again next time. but yeah, they should hire someone to better curate and verify the database.1 -
Rather than use the recipe builder, unless I am going to need to weigh out servings, as with a lasagne or stew or some such, I create the recipe just by listing all the ingredients in my log. Then if I eat half or a fourth or whatever, I go through and change the amounts accordingly at the end. It's not as precise as some other ways, but good enough, especially if you know you are right on the higher cal stuff.0
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Ironandwine69 wrote: »i cook from scratch often too and i agree that it's absolutely not any harder for me to use my scale than to use measuring cups etc. and while the recipe builder can seriously crap out sometimes (i spent 15 minutes building a recipe today that wouldn't save) i find it super useful when it's functioning. i especially like if for things that i make a lot, as i can just open up the recipe for editing and adjust the grams as i go.
OMG...this has happened to me a couple of times! It is infuriating! I honestly think if the recipe builder/function were more user friendly, it would take some of my frustration away. Once I get a recipe logged that I know is a keeper, it is super easy to plan, cook, log, and eat!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Rather than use the recipe builder, unless I am going to need to weigh out servings, as with a lasagne or stew or some such, I create the recipe just by listing all the ingredients in my log. Then if I eat half or a fourth or whatever, I go through and change the amounts accordingly at the end. It's not as precise as some other ways, but good enough, especially if you know you are right on the higher cal stuff.
Yeah, I like the Meal function for that as opposed to the Recipe thingy, too. Then I can edit single ingredients when I decide to get fancy the next time I make it.
I do use the old recipe tool, too. Don't know the difference between the old recipe and new recipe tool, but the old one works well for me. I tend to delete them when I remake the same thing and make changes. Then I name them with the date in it - just in case.
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cmriverside wrote: »It's pretty easy to stay at a healthy weight in your thirties. I never counted a calorie till I was in my fifties.
I was fine until menopause. Then ish got real.
Loved your post. I was fine until I hit my 60's and quit smoking. After that, I tried just about every diet I could find and none were either successful or something I could imagine doing the rest of my life.
WW did teach me how to guesstimate portions, and low carb took the weight off the best. But both felt too much like a diet for me. (Not saying for anyone else).
I do not weigh much except for meat or some food I can't easily measure with a set of measuring cups or measuring spoons.
I actually enjoy counting calories. I find it amusing to see how much I can eat without going over my limit.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »coolvstar650 wrote: »
Right now I do have to count every nugget...but I am right there with you. It is STRESSFUL for those of us that cook from scratch (not faux scratch with a box of this added to a can of that) with real ingredients. I do the effort of making my recipes through the app but it take dedication...and sometimes, dang it, I really just want to cook, eat, and me merrily free of counting.Ironandwine69 wrote: »
It IS true that it's time consuming( for me). Unless you eat everything out of a box. I cook most of my meals from scratch. It's easy to scan a box, not so easy to count and measure everything you are putting in your meal for a family.
I don't agree at all, and again I pointed out how I do it upthread in some detail. I rarely use the recipe function (which isn't that great, IMO), and don't find it stressful a bit. I really don't understand how putting ingredients on the scale when chopping makes it so much more burdensome or stressful. (And I say this as someone who is so lazy that I don't really like logging, but the actual weighing of the ingredients seems easier to do when actually cooking from scratch, IMO).
I have to ask...
What do you do with the ingredient weights after weighting? Do you just enter a portion(I read above where you cooked for 2) of it as individual entries on your food log (when you were logging)?
The constant updating of my recipes and refiguring portion sizes is what drives me insane. I hardly ever make anything exactly as I did before. I make a lot of one dish type meals so I change out vegetables...change out the quantity of meat quite often...add this...add that.
The recipe builder is where it takes me quite a bit of time. Not only do I change recipes up I also cook usually at least 1 often 2 new recipes a week. It would be easier if I would stick to more basic recipes and leave them as entered to begin with.
ETA...I see that you have already answered my question above.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »Ironandwine69 wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »You're on a calorie counting website...
I thought this site was called "My fitness pal", not "counting calories.com"
This does explain all the pushback, though.
It's like going on a bodybuilder's site and saying, "All this heavy lifting, I'd rather lift the pink weights 10,00o reps, who's with me?"
Pretty sure there's gonna be some Push.Back.
That's SOOO not the same thing. Fitness is way more than counting calories. And again this site is called my fitness pal.
Pushbacks are not necessarily bad. It's all about sharing opinions.0
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