April 2017 Running Challenge

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  • garygse
    garygse Posts: 896 Member
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    I am going to go on a rare case where I actually disagree with @MobyCarp

    I think it's even more important for an amateur marathoner to train fasted. Your body is in worse shape to use fat for fuel than an elite. You absolutely need to teach your body to use fat for fuel if it takes you 4 or 5 hours to run a marathon. An elite can run a marathon just a little over 2 hours and knows exactly what his/her fastest pace at an aerobic level is. Newbies don't. So they will more likely to prematurely exhaust their glycogen supplies. In fact, in my opinion, gels (and other forms of mid race fuel) help an amateur less than an elite.

    You cannot in any way possible run a decent or even half decent 4-5 hour run on carbs alone, whether glycogen stored or mid race fueling. There is absolutely no way 5 or 6 or even 8 100 calorie gels packs can in any way make a significant impact when you're burning over 4000, 5000, even 6000 calories in a marathon. You have to teach your body to burn fat for fuel for a long period of time.

    This is one where I wholeheartedly fall into @Stoshew71's line of thought and reasoning. Like most people, I have enough glycogen for about 2 hours or so of running, and I cannot run a marathon in 2 hours. Therefore, the more I can teach my body to utilise fat for fuel, the longer I can be out there.
  • Bakins929
    Bakins929 Posts: 896 Member
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    Too cold for me to run outside today, so 5 miles on the dreadmill. Looking forward to hiking some this weekend!

    exercise.png
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    jessicalferrara wrote: »
    I had the best run yesterday. I felt amazing. The weather was perfect. A tad windy, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. I felt like I was flying, I know I wasn't and I'm super slow, but it felt good. I got 4.5 miles in, so I am up to 13.5 miles for the month. I have 11.5 more to go to reach my goal. I go to Orangetheory today, so I will get in maybe a mile or so there. I'm excited about my new found runner's high!

    you're totally going to surpass your goal. Great job!
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited April 2017
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    On the fasted runs to train your body to burn fat for fuel, I agree that it is important since I am slow (I wish I was a 4-5 hour marathoner). I have a question for @Stoshew71 though because if you read the posts literally then in between the lines in those it would seem that one would do a long run in a fasted state and take no gels or anything during the run. This is not what I do, learned to do, or have ever heard as sensible advice, so I feel compelled to ask about it.

    Like @garygse, I can go about 2 hours on glycogen stores alone, meaning I can start a run in a fasted state and just run through the whole 2 hours taking in only water (if necessary). If my run will be longer than 2 hours this does not work and I refuel, at which point I take gels. At the moment on runs where I refuel I refuel about every 50 minutes but I also know I can cut that back on some runs. For example, a 2.5 hour run it is possible to get by with one refueling about 1:30-1:45 into the run. One way to look at this is the "cookie cutter" advice commonly heard on half marathons about taking a gel at the 8 mile mark. If I were going to run for a long time, say 3+ hours, then I would refuel every 45-50 minutes, no exception.

    All that said, if there is some sort of data or personal experiences out there about running 2.5+ hours in a fasted state with zero refueling, I'm ready to hear it since it would be a new concept to me. I'm not sure how the *kitten* it is possible, but I'm all ears. :smile:
  • jessicalferrara
    jessicalferrara Posts: 59 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    jessicalferrara wrote: »
    I had the best run yesterday. I felt amazing. The weather was perfect. A tad windy, but I kind of enjoyed it at the same time. I felt like I was flying, I know I wasn't and I'm super slow, but it felt good. I got 4.5 miles in, so I am up to 13.5 miles for the month. I have 11.5 more to go to reach my goal. I go to Orangetheory today, so I will get in maybe a mile or so there. I'm excited about my new found runner's high!

    you're totally going to surpass your goal. Great job!


    Thank you so much! I'm excited to pass it and see how many miles I can get in!
  • garygse
    garygse Posts: 896 Member
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    @WhatMeRunning To make longer runs in a fasted state with zero refueling, I just run slower so that the percentage of fat burnt for fuel increases, and therefore less glycogen is used. That, in effect, opens up my running window so that I can go for 3+ hours.
  • kgirlhart
    kgirlhart Posts: 4,996 Member
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    Thanks @girlinahat. I really do enjoy running at the park. I don't really have a need to increase my pace other than just wanting to improve every time I run. I am hoping to sign up for my first 5k soon, but I live in a pretty rural area and the local 5ks are few and far between. I know they usually have one for the animal shelter so I have been on the look out for the sign up info.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    @7lenny7 Good input. I ran my first 15 mile run totally fasted, and it was a distance PR when I ran it, so I've run fasted distance PR's before.

    Looking at my log, I really only have eaten before 2 of my long runs, so I'm starting to think that the heartburn thing may or may not be a food thing. I think there's just a lot of new experiences since I'm pushing out distance pretty well beyond HM distance now, so I'm seeing more things that didn't happen when my long runs were <10 miles......
  • KatieJane83
    KatieJane83 Posts: 2,002 Member
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    I'm loving all of this talking about fueling and fasted runs. I really need to buckle down and work out my strategy for all of this. I would really like to get my body trained to recruit more fat for energy so that I can be as well prepared as possible for my November marathon. I'm using Pfitzinger's training plans, and I don't think he really talks about fasted training, so I'm going to do some more widespread research.
  • Bakins929
    Bakins929 Posts: 896 Member
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    kgirlhart wrote: »
    Thanks @girlinahat. I really do enjoy running at the park. I don't really have a need to increase my pace other than just wanting to improve every time I run. I am hoping to sign up for my first 5k soon, but I live in a pretty rural area and the local 5ks are few and far between. I know they usually have one for the animal shelter so I have been on the look out for the sign up info.

    You may want to try AthLinks or Active.com to look for local races.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited April 2017
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    Thanks @garygse and @7lenny7 for the feedback. I am pretty intrigued. Very fascinating. I'm not surprised about running slower, but I am surprised about being able to effectively do it with no fuel of any sort. I'm looking at it as you set out at a pace like for an ultra event. The difference being that on such an ultra event you would be fueling. I was simply unaware that anyone ran for periods that long completely fasted.
  • NikolaosKey
    NikolaosKey Posts: 410 Member
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    Hi all

    Aim: 130k

    4/2: 13.1k -casual run-
    4/3: 1.5k -cause I am lazy, that's why-
    4/4: 4k -as c/d of leg day training-
    4/6: 5k -after gym-
    4/7: 8.5k -intervals-

    32.1/130k

    This time it was awesome!!


    Stay free of injuries!
  • BeeerRunner
    BeeerRunner Posts: 728 Member
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    I posted this recently, but this is the information I'm using to GRADUALLY increase my ability to run fasted.

    https://run.mcmillanrunning.com/the-marathon-long-run/

    12 miles is probably the max I've run fasted, which is about 2 hours. But that's only if conditions are right, such as cool weather and flat/easy terrain. If I'm trail running in the heat with the Texas sun beating down on me...I'm not gonna last even 12 miles. I'm up to 10 miles in those conditions. My goal is to add about a mile a week. I'm still taking on water and Powerade 0 (electrolytes but no carbs). I'm also still eating a light breakfast before hand, but I'll eventually eliminate that as well. Like the article says, I do plan on taking a gel with me, even if I don't plan on using it. It's not that I get tired, I get light headed and dizzy which could potentially be dangerous.

    My point is that everyone is different. @MNLittleFinn is already running some pretty long distances without fuel so he may not need it, but at some point, it is beneficial to practice fueling techniques, and when running fasted, it might be a good idea to take bring along a gel for emergency purposes until at least you know how you'll react to running that distance without fuel.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
    edited April 2017
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    I just reread everything in the fasted/fueled discussion we've been having, and it reminded me why I love this group! I'll probably go back and forth in my mind, over whether or not I want to run tomorrow fasted or fueled, until I actually get in the truck to go to my start point tomorrow. I haven't run carryint fuel yet, so I think there's some apprehension about carrying FOOD....LOL, never thought I'd be apprehensive about having something to eat!

    The other part is that, like @7lenny7 , I prefer getting my calories through real food, and my tradition of eating whole pizzas on Saturday afternoons has been a fun one.

    @BeeerRunner what you said is the reason I'm thinking that, if I decided to try a fasted run tomorrow, I'll stick a gel or 2 in my pocket, just so it's there if I really need it.
  • kgirlhart
    kgirlhart Posts: 4,996 Member
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    Thanks @7lenny7. And thanks for those links @baskins929. I will check those out.
  • garygse
    garygse Posts: 896 Member
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    @BeeerRunner You're completely right in that everyone's different, so what may work for some may not be as effective for others. And yes, I always make sure to carry gels in case I really need something...better to have something and not need it than the other way around!

    @WhatMeRunning Similar to @7lenny7, my longest run while fasted was 19 miles, which took me 3:13 to complete, and I certainly started to feel it towards the end. I reckon I could push it to somewhere around 20-22, but after that point I would definitely need something.

    It's an interesting topic, for sure.

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