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What the Health?

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Replies

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited August 2017
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/

    Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.

    They are not pretty much the same.

    I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.

    A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.

    Both are anti dairy, granted.

    SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.

    Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.

    Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."

    and perhaps even weirder that the most extreme vegan diet, fruitarianism, is definitely paleo :smile:

    I don't know why that would be "even weirder." Of course vegan diets CAN also be paleo, although it would be hard to get what I'd consider adequate protein.

    Typical vegan and paleo diets aren't pretty much the same, however.

    I've also seen lots of paleo posters on MFP specifically who were anti fruit, as I mentioned. Less so off MFP, but there's definitely some overlap between paleo and low carb that results in that.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,736 Member
    nevadavis1 wrote: »

    Framing it as an allegedly ethical choice sets you up to feel superior to those who make other choices.

    **animals are food. By framing your choice as ethical, you're demonizing food.

    Nope, it's my ethics. I choose what I can live with and what I can't. Others make their own choices. There are things I do that aren't ideal in an ideal world--drive a car for example. But I reached a point in my own life where I couldn't eat animals any longer and it was the right choice for me for so many reasons. I'm not superior to others (ok, I'm superior to serial killers and scammers... but whatever) but I am better than the person I used to be in many ways, not just how I treat animals. Making a choice to try to act on my ethics helped me in ways that aren't even connected to eating. Some people don't see animals as food--I don't, at least not any longer.

    Though I'm not a fan of What the Health honestly because you can be a healthy or unhealthy vegan and you can be a healthy or unhealthy non-vegan, in my personal opinion, mileage may vary.

    But yeah, it is my ethics. Just like some people boycott made in china products or buy a prius or won't take a job at a tobacco company or choose how they vote based on their ethics. We don't all have the same ethics but we all have them (or at least most of us).

    As I put it to Jane, another ethical vegan. It's not that I'm objecting to the idea, but specifically to the way that particular commenter framed her position, by directly conflating her veganism with her other ethical choices and experiences.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/

    Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.

    They are not pretty much the same.

    I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.

    A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.

    Both are anti dairy, granted.

    SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.

    Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.

    Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."

    Again you keep on missing my point. I am not saying the two diets promote eating the same stuff. Not at all. All I am saying is that both diets eliminate the protein source (meat on one side and legumes on the other), but they both realize that we need proteins so meat and legumes come into play.

    A ton of the trendy WFPB stuff (see, e.g., Freelee, but also various doctor gurus like McDougall, Greger (who was involved in the "documentary" this thread is about), etc.) are very down on protein. They would not acknowledge you need more protein than what you might get eating whatever non animal based foods you may eat (often lots of fruit which is low protein). It's sensible, responsible vegans like Jack Norris who promote eating adequate protein and legumes and so on (most vegans I personally know), but these are often ethical vegans who are concerned with a nutrient-rich diet and of course the ethical issues, but not avoiding processed foods or what not.
    Both promote eating crap load of fruit and veggies. Thats all.

    Again, some in both camps do, just like some who are neither paleo nor vegan do. People who are vegan mainly for the ethics may not, may not promote any kind of diet, and I've run into (largely online) a disappointing number of paleo types who also do not promote eating lots of fruit and veg, but merely cutting out the foods they cut out (and often eating lots of meat).

    Yes, I think the paleo diet properly done ought to involve a huge amount of vegetables and some fruit (amount based on preference). That doesn't seem to be the real distinguishing feature of the paleo diet.

    I think you and I agree largely on what a good diet involves and that both vegan and paleo diets can be good diets, and are just debating over whether the things that make something a good diet are distinguishing features of paleo and vegan diets? Maybe? Not sure.

    I'm not anti vegan or paleo, think both can be good diets (or bad diets, if done badly), and also think lots of diets that are neither vegan or paleo can be just as good (or just as bad, done badly).
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,878 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    hollysin81 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it but have heard enough to know I'm not going to bother.. Paleo and Vegan.. Two opposite ends of the scale, yet each will tell you it's the best (or only) option. Each to their own in terms of what people choose to put into their bodies for whatever reasons. I eat meat, but I source it locally and make the effort to know where it's raised and what it's been fed. So from a health point of view, I don't disagree with eating meat or animal products. I do however, disagree with mass produced, inhumanely farmed meat and animal products.

    Interesting topic. I like it :)

    Yes, but please do note that both of these ways preach to you the importance of nutrient dense foods. Paleo will never tell you not to eat veggies. Hell, I eat more veggies now than I ever did. Like wise for the vegans, eat crap load of veggies but instead of meat get your proteins elsewhere. That simple. Neither does advertise that you should be eating any kind of processed foods. So although they both might be very different ways of eating and ways of life, they are very similar.

    I never said anything about processed foods. I'm not sure why you quoted me.. :/

    Just trying to point out that paleo and vegan although very different are pretty much the same in the end. Just like any religion if you break things down, its all the same thing, and they all have they firm followers, who in the end practice the same things. Just in a different way.

    They are not pretty much the same.

    I did paleo for a bit and know a number of people who do it and follow paleo stuff to some extent, and they don't think meat is bad for you and actually tend to eat more meat than the US average, from what I observed.

    A vegan diet, even WFPB, is really hard to maintain without legumes, which paleo puts on the verboten list, and grains are also helpful.

    Both are anti dairy, granted.

    SOME vegans and most paleo followers (although weirdly, not all, fewer than one should expect, really), tend to eat lots of whole foods and of course ensure that lots of those whole foods are vegetables. You know who else does this? A lot of people who aren't vegan or paleo, like me. So that's not a special thing about vegan or paleo diets, especially since not everyone who does those diets does it.

    Another difference: SOME paleo types (not all, not the ones I know best) tend to be anti carb and pro sat fat, and therefore warn against fruit (or more than a little or "low sugar" fruits). To the extent that paleo overlaps with keto, some may even warn against root veg (sugary carrots) or too many vegetables.

    Both can be done in a way that accentuates eating lots of produce, making plants the center of the plate, doing lots of home cooking, so on -- in fact, I think both should, ideally -- but again that does not separate them from many other ways of eating, so it seems weird to claim that they are "very similar."

    Again you keep on missing my point. I am not saying the two diets promote eating the same stuff. Not at all. All I am saying is that both diets eliminate the protein source (meat on one side and legumes on the other), but they both realize that we need proteins so meat and legumes come into play. Both promote eating crap load of fruit and veggies. Thats all.

    Vegans can, like non-vegans, choose to eat a lot of fruit and vegetables. But it isn't required (unless you're just using "fruit and veggies" as a way to describe any plant at all. There are vegans who eat a lot of grains and fewer fruits and vegetables, for example.
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    edited August 2017
    The film is excellent. It's backed by science from studies of Dr. Neal Barnard and the China study with Dr. T. Cambell. You will always have a debate of which is the right diet and there will always be something with a bias research study showing that a plant base lifestyle is wrong. Both of these doctors that I mentioned came from meat eating farming and was unbiased with their studies.

    The Documentary "what the health" is shedding light on the issue but I would encourage to do further reading with The china study and with Dr. Neal barnard studies.

    Personally, I've done most of the popular diets, from high protein low carb, all fruit, High protein MEAT, etc... and the only one that worked for me is High carb low fat plant/vegan diet.

    I don't count calories like I used to, and I have more energy than ever as well as losing body fat...

    There comes a time where you got to set aside all the blogs, reviews, etc.. and just try for yourself.

    I did give it a go and besides having my cholesterol numbers worsen, I also began having unpleasant digestive issues, started feeling lethargic and 'off', had horrible bloating etc. As soon as I reintroduced dairy and a few ounces of meat every day, things cleared right up.

    Glad you found something that clicked for you, but it's definitely not a way of eating that's for everyone.