Of refeeds and diet breaks
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MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Well, I have a bit of a confession for the refeed thread crew: I’ve been pretty vocal on the forums about my success losing weight while calorie cycling/refeeding/banking calories. The point that I haven’t always been specific on was that this whole way of eating has basically been my way to compensate for too-frequent binge drinking and the subsequent drunk munchies. Increased alcohol use was a big part of my weight gain in the first place, and controlling it has been a big part of my success losing.
Since I might consume 800-1000 calories in alcohol on a high calorie day, I’ve felt like a bit of a fraud responding to threads about banking or cycling calories, although I do like reassuring people that you don’t have to stick to a strict daily goal to be successful. So with that embarrassing background out of the way, I’m happy to report that refeed days are a lot of fun even without lots of booze!
As of late last month, my husband and I quit smoking, which has also meant no more nights out drinking. I’m still hitting my glass of red wine most evenings and have had a couple of beers over the last few weeks, but only rarely more than one drink in a sitting. So instead of just hoping I can keep my weekly calories down enough to balance my semi-uncontrolled overeating, I actually have to plan where those extra carbs are going to come from. It’s pretty cool! Plus, I’ve been seeing consistent weight drops the day after a high-calorie/carb day, which never happened before presumably because of booze bloat.
Anyhow, I’ve been less active on the boards recently due to work, but I’ve been thinking about this a lot the last couple of weeks and wanted to share. Hope everyone is doing great and enjoying whatever phase of eating they happen to be in right now.
I too had an aha moment. Eating at 1200 calories has been just a mental and physical grind for me since August. Then I realized that I was allotting 120-240 calories per night for a glass or two of wine. That means that I was trying to survive on roughly 1000 - 1100 calories a day!! When I started moderating and became Alcohol Free M-Th, I could actually eat my whole 1200 calories and it has been a game changer for me.
I have even upped my F-S-S calories to 1450 so that I can have my wine, but still get my food food in, and still be in a deficit. Kudoz to you! There is also a thread on the Challenge Forum called April One Day at a Time that has really kept me on track with others that are also trying to moderator or abstain completely. 6 -
I had 30 pounds to lose. As of this morning I have 4 pounds left to reach that total 30 pound loss! I originally gave myself until May 12 to do this, so I hope I beat my own goal!
I have taken two diet breaks. One at 16 weeks in and one at 23 weeks in. The first was 10 days long and came at a good time for a mental break and to help break through a plateau. The second was a 4 day break and was because friends were coming into town but ended up being good timing as I had hit a second plateau. They both acted slightly different but both were very beneficial.
Break one: I ate at or above maintenance for 10 days and weighed about the same, within a pound, the whole 10 days. After being back on my diet for 3 weeks, I had lost 5 pounds. That was great for me with a goal of -1 pound a week and breaking my plateau, those 3 weeks were such a victory.
Break two: I ate at or above maintenance for 4 days and didn't weigh in everyday because I was at a hotel. Weigh in after the 4 days had me at 4.5 pounds heavier than what I was at the start of the break! The old me would have freaked, but I was back on my diet and knew it would come off as water weight. It sure did, within 5 days I was back down to the starting weight before the break and now, this week, I have lost another 4 pounds off of that! That's awesome because it broke me through another plateau!
I thought it was funny that the first time, 10 days of higher calories really didn't affect the scale but the 4 days did. Then, after the 4 day break, the weight came off faster than the 10 day break. So the same, but different, but it works!
Once I get the total 30 pounds off, I have a small goal of losing another 10 by October 12, just before a family trip.
I am thinking of doing the following to keep losing: Diet and exercise roughly the same, maybe a little higher calories but not to maintenance yet, and doing 6 weeks on and 1 week off (diet break) to get the last 10 pounds off. May 12th, that will be my first goal date and will be 6 weeks since the last diet break I took 2 weeks ago. So it would be perfect timing to start the 6 on and 1 off.
Anyone else done a pre-determined rotation of diet weeks and weeks off? I know that the less you have to lose the more often breaks are beneficial but that's all I have really seen. Keeping in mind, the 30 pounds gets me to 165 and the last 10 would get me to 155 (top of BMI is 154, so sure I would aim for 154 lol) I am 5'6".
Thanks!
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jillstreett wrote: »I had 30 pounds to lose. As of this morning I have 4 pounds left to reach that total 30 pound loss! I originally gave myself until May 12 to do this, so I hope I beat my own goal!
I have taken two diet breaks. One at 16 weeks in and one at 23 weeks in. The first was 10 days long and came at a good time for a mental break and to help break through a plateau. The second was a 4 day break and was because friends were coming into town but ended up being good timing as I had hit a second plateau. They both acted slightly different but both were very beneficial.
Break one: I ate at or above maintenance for 10 days and weighed about the same, within a pound, the whole 10 days. After being back on my diet for 3 weeks, I had lost 5 pounds. That was great for me with a goal of -1 pound a week and breaking my plateau, those 3 weeks were such a victory.
Break two: I ate ate or above maintenance for 4 days and didn't weigh in everyday because I was at a hotel. Weigh in after the 4 days had me at 4.5 pounds heavier than what I was at the start of the break! The old me would have freaked, but I was back on my diet and knew it would come off as water weight. It sure did, within 5 days I was back down to the starting weight before the break and now, this week, I have lost another 4 pounds off of that! That's awesome because it broke me through another plateau!
I thought it was funny that the first time, 10 days of higher calories really didn't affect the scale but the 4 days did. Then, after the 4 day break, the weight came off faster than the 10 day break. So the same, but different, but it works!
Once I get the total 30 pounds off, I have a small goal of losing another 10 by October 12, just before a family trip.
I am thinking of doing the following to keep losing: Diet and exercise roughly the same, maybe a little higher calories but not to maintenance yet, and doing 6 weeks on and 1 week off (diet break) to get the last 10 pounds off. May 12th, that will be my first goal date and will be 6 weeks since the last diet break I took 2 weeks ago. So it would be perfect timing to start the 6 on and 1 off.
Anyone else done a pre-determined rotation of diet weeks and weeks off? I know that the less you have to lose the more often breaks are beneficial but that's all I have really seen. Keeping in mind, the 30 pounds gets me to 165 and the last 10 would get me to 155 (top of BMI is 154, so sure I would aim for 154 lol) I am 5'6".
Thanks!
I've been thinking of doing an X weeks on, X weeks off rotation once I get leaner. For the time being I've planned a second diet break to correspond with a vacation in June, but I've been losing pretty steady so far so don't want to mix things up yet. My first goal weight is also just at the top of normal BMI (although your extra four inches gives you 20 pounds on my target, unfortunately for me) and I plan to reevaluate then. If I decide to lose past that, or if I hit a plateau in the intervening 25-30 pounds I probably will go to a rotation of some sort. Congratulations on your hard work so far!4 -
If you still have a fat loss goal, there's going to be periods of deficits and diet breaks and as long as the running average is a deficit, you'll lose fat. How you want to structure is subjective to your personal goal and ideal body fat %, which for men is around 10-15% and for women around 20-25%. This isn't set in stone, but it's just the body fat range that tends to reduce the risk associated with being underfat or overfat.
I have gone through the 4-6 weeks on a deficit (with free days and refeeds) and 2 week diet breaks, as well as 2 weeks on 1 week off, and 2 days on, 1 day off, etc... Adherence is the ultimate determinant for the deficit period.
The harder you push the deficit, the shorter that period is going to be.7 -
I am also trying to wean myself to no booze Sunday - Wednesday, one drink Thursday, and sharing a bottle of wine Friday and Saturday with hubby. It's a work in progress though! Helpful things have been only allowing a weekly shop of teeny weeny wine bottles, having alcohol free wine always available, along with other grown up drinks (my faves are pomegranate juice diluted with soda and various takes on shrubs, usually made with balsamic vinegar), and cutting out everything else (apart from gin, because I don't overdrink on gin for some reason). I do lecture myself about I'd have more calories available for food if I managed this.2
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If you still have a fat loss goal, there's going to be periods of deficits and diet breaks and as long as the running average is a deficit, you'll lose fat. How you want to structure is subjective to your personal goal and ideal body fat %, which for men is around 10-15% and for women around 20-25%. This isn't set in stone, but it's just the body fat range that tends to reduce the risk associated with being underfat or overfat.
I have gone through the 4-6 weeks on a deficit (with free days and refeeds) and 2 week diet breaks, as well as 2 weeks on 1 week off, and 2 days on, 1 day off, etc... Adherence is the ultimate determinant for the deficit period.
The harder you push the deficit, the shorter that period is going to be.
Ahem. Sticking up for old farts, here. Ideal body fat ranges are higher for us old folks. Just saying. I think I'm about 26%, and I'm okay with that. It's not bad for my age (I'll be 56 in a few months).9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »If you still have a fat loss goal, there's going to be periods of deficits and diet breaks and as long as the running average is a deficit, you'll lose fat. How you want to structure is subjective to your personal goal and ideal body fat %, which for men is around 10-15% and for women around 20-25%. This isn't set in stone, but it's just the body fat range that tends to reduce the risk associated with being underfat or overfat.
I have gone through the 4-6 weeks on a deficit (with free days and refeeds) and 2 week diet breaks, as well as 2 weeks on 1 week off, and 2 days on, 1 day off, etc... Adherence is the ultimate determinant for the deficit period.
The harder you push the deficit, the shorter that period is going to be.
Ahem. Sticking up for old farts, here. Ideal body fat ranges are higher for us old folks. Just saying. I think I'm about 26%, and I'm okay with that. It's not bad for my age (I'll be 56 in a few months).
:drinker:5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »If you still have a fat loss goal, there's going to be periods of deficits and diet breaks and as long as the running average is a deficit, you'll lose fat. How you want to structure is subjective to your personal goal and ideal body fat %, which for men is around 10-15% and for women around 20-25%. This isn't set in stone, but it's just the body fat range that tends to reduce the risk associated with being underfat or overfat.
I have gone through the 4-6 weeks on a deficit (with free days and refeeds) and 2 week diet breaks, as well as 2 weeks on 1 week off, and 2 days on, 1 day off, etc... Adherence is the ultimate determinant for the deficit period.
The harder you push the deficit, the shorter that period is going to be.
Ahem. Sticking up for old farts, here. Ideal body fat ranges are higher for us old folks. Just saying. I think I'm about 26%, and I'm okay with that. It's not bad for my age (I'll be 56 in a few months).
Ah, yes.. forgive me. Ideal for the general population. As age becomes a factor, muscle mass becomes the highest priority. Body fat isn't greatly more, but you're correct, it does increase as we age.
https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/41/5/677/47347
http://www.freebodyfatcalculator.org/body-fat-percentage-chart/
https://www.builtlean.com/2010/08/03/ideal-body-fat-percentage-chart/3 -
Thanks so much for your response! I had some troubles (now past) and missed this at the time.I wish I could get a DXA scan. I’m clueless as to what my body fat actually is.
My BMI is just within normal around 24.8. My waist-hip ratio is .69 and My waist height ratio .426. (So for a 50+ year old those ratios are darn good). I’m a pear or almost hourglass. Big thunderous thighs but 27 inch waist.
Strength training for 6 months (I can hardly call it lifting ‘heavy’ tho it is heavy for me). But 3 if those months I was still at a considerable deficit and losing quite a bit of weight.
Now that I’m more or less at maintenance I’m so confused. Not happy with how I look, but I’m almost in XS tops with huge hips that look even bigger next to my nice waist. Honestly I think my body just looks weird and I can’t find pants that flatter me.
Lol, I guess I can’t cater to vanity.
You can use visual images of estimated body fat percentages to get a rough estimate. Note that if you fall under a certain image, it's probably best to select the upper end of that range. Many people don't like to admit they carry more fat than they think.
Optionally, you could ask someone to estimate it for you. I've done it for a few people in this thread, and it's purely clinical, albeit unapologetic with the estimate.
Last option would be to get something like a Skulpt body fat analyzer. It's $99 on amazon, and while it's not a DXA, it is reusable and it's fairly more accurate than BIA scales or handheld monitors.
If you're at maintenance weight, but not visually satisfied, just continue to strength train and gradually increase the load. Heavy is always a relative term, so if it's heavy for you, then it's heavy. If you can do more weight, more reps, or more sets, or any combination of all of those, you are gaining an objective measure of strength which helps with muscle development and by extension, will produce a better body shape.
,
I’m 53 yo, 27 waist and 39 inch hips. 5”3.75 inches tall. I figure about 28-29% fat? Oh yeah about 144 lb. I’m at maintenance now but at the very top top of my BMI normal range. If you think by these pics that I’m drastically over or underestimating my fat percentage do let me know.
PicturesFYI I’ve lost a bit over 50 lb in the past calendar year and have a good deal of saggy skin (but it could be worse so no complaints).My current practice is to eat at maintenance (on a 5:2 IF plan) strength training 2-3 times a week (never on my light calorie days). (I do weights 2X one week and 3X the next). Ample cardio, walking (because I don’t drive) and swimming/hula hoop/mini trampoline for the fun of it —but never too extensive on cardio. I’m no cardio queen!
My goals are really to keep increasing muscle and strength as much as is feasible (I have some physical disabilities to contend with but as a newb to weights these are still pretty irrelevant) and if I go down in size/ improve my appearance that would be highly motivating and gratifying but as an old fart hardly my goal.4 -
I think I'm begrudgingly coming over to the lifting side. After a come to Jesus talk with the dietitian, I've been told that like it or not, calories need to happen, and that hey, since it looks like I'm going to have some water weight piling on anyway, let's try incorporating some strength training and see if I can at least try to mitigate some of the shape shifting that we anticipate.
So I like the looks of NRLFW. I am not as keen on doing this at a gym, and fortunately have some spare room at home that I can use to do some basic work. What do we think is the minimum equipment that I need to buy?7 -
collectingblues wrote: »I think I'm begrudgingly coming over to the lifting side. After a come to Jesus talk with the dietitian, I've been told that like it or not, calories need to happen, and that hey, since it looks like I'm going to have some water weight piling on anyway, let's try incorporating some strength training and see if I can at least try to mitigate some of the shape shifting that we anticipate.
So I like the looks of NRLFW. I am not as keen on doing this at a gym, and fortunately have some spare room at home that I can use to do some basic work. What do we think is the minimum equipment that I need to buy?
This is just a great idea no matter what. You body shape and muscle mass improve and I have recently read some info that indicates that the stresses for adaptation caused by weight training causes benefits at the mitochondrial level. (Anubis have you seen anything on that?)
Equipment wise, a good bench. A set of adjustable stantions (sp) for holding the bar and weights. An Olympic bar and some weight plates. That should get you started. Maybe a few dumbbells would be good. You can often find this stuff used on craigslist or facebook marketplace/ yardsale sites.
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collectingblues wrote: »I think I'm begrudgingly coming over to the lifting side. After a come to Jesus talk with the dietitian, I've been told that like it or not, calories need to happen, and that hey, since it looks like I'm going to have some water weight piling on anyway, let's try incorporating some strength training and see if I can at least try to mitigate some of the shape shifting that we anticipate.
So I like the looks of NRLFW. I am not as keen on doing this at a gym, and fortunately have some spare room at home that I can use to do some basic work. What do we think is the minimum equipment that I need to buy?
When I went back to strength training, I worked with NRLFW and found it great. Since that time, the authors published Strong which I like even better. It pays more attention to basic conditioning before slapping on heavier lifts. I got about half way through Strong (about 4 months) before I got sidelined with non-exercise injuries, and finally went back to it this winter, and like it even better the second time around. Edited to add: the core work in Strong is much better - NROLFW authors added updates to advise against the crunches and modify some other stuff. You'll find the updates pinned to the top of the NROLFW facebook group.
Minimum equipment to start with would be a weight bench, dumbbells that go up to 25#, and what would be really handy would be a TRX type suspension (if you have a sturdy door). Eventually, though, a gym will be a better option as you progress - having access to cable machines, a squat rack for safety, heavier dumbbells, heavier weight plates, etc will be great.1 -
collectingblues wrote: »I think I'm begrudgingly coming over to the lifting side. After a come to Jesus talk with the dietitian, I've been told that like it or not, calories need to happen, and that hey, since it looks like I'm going to have some water weight piling on anyway, let's try incorporating some strength training and see if I can at least try to mitigate some of the shape shifting that we anticipate.
So I like the looks of NRLFW. I am not as keen on doing this at a gym, and fortunately have some spare room at home that I can use to do some basic work. What do we think is the minimum equipment that I need to buy?
When I went back to strength training, I worked with NRLFW and found it great. Since that time, the authors published Strong which I like even better. It pays more attention to basic conditioning before slapping on heavier lifts. I got about half way through Strong (about 4 months) before I got sidelined with non-exercise injuries, and finally went back to it this winter, and like it even better the second time around.
Minimum equipment to start with would be a weight bench, dumbbells that go up to 25#, and what would be really handy would be a TRX type suspension (if you have a sturdy door). Eventually, though, a gym will be a better option as you progress - having access to cable machines, a squat rack for safety, heavier dumbbells, heavier weight plates, etc will be great.
Thanks! I've got a decent base (I can haul 50 pounds of gardening crap around with no issues), but haven't really done anything focused. I think I'll *try* NRLFW, and if it seems overwhelming, then I'll go for Strong.
I have a gym membership, but I don't want to lift around other people. I know that people really supposedly don't judge, but right now, my brain is pretty much at "you're a fat girl and they're all going to judge." So I figure this will help take care of the primary goal, while also not sending my brain into overdrive.4 -
collectingblues wrote: »I think I'm begrudgingly coming over to the lifting side. After a come to Jesus talk with the dietitian, I've been told that like it or not, calories need to happen, and that hey, since it looks like I'm going to have some water weight piling on anyway, let's try incorporating some strength training and see if I can at least try to mitigate some of the shape shifting that we anticipate.
So I like the looks of NRLFW. I am not as keen on doing this at a gym, and fortunately have some spare room at home that I can use to do some basic work. What do we think is the minimum equipment that I need to buy?
Woo! I've been immersed in home gym research for the last few months, so here's what I've done (keeping in mind that my workout space is a low-ceilinged basement and I want to keep enough room open to do calisthenics in the winter months, and also that I've been a bit tight on cash pre-tax season but am getting a bonus in June):
1) Mats: because cement floor = no bueno. I got these interlocking mats off Amazon and they're great, although they do come apart at the seams occasionally - wouldn't be an issue for lifting. I started with one set and eventually bought two more.
2) Adjustable dumbbells: My dad got me a set that went up to 12.5 lbs a hand and I bought myself a set of PowerBlocks that go up to 24 pounds a hand. I use the small set for warmups now. If you want to go with adjustable dumbbells I've got to recommend saving for PowerBlocks - the design is much smoother than the smaller set and from what I've seen online, they're probably the best option out there. That said I've struggled with dumbbells squats (I found goblets much better for form, but am having grip issues now and switching to Belgians) and after six weeks am about to outgrow them for deadlifts.
3) Bench: I got this one. I decided against an incline bench because 1) cost, 2) a lot of them come attached to squat racks and I like that I can move this one easy for space, 3) I didn't really need the incline, and 4) I've also had trouble with articulated benches due to my height (5'2"). A lot of people say you should use an incline bench for seated overhead presses, but that isn't a universal recommendation.
4) TRX system: I got this cheaper version for inverted rows to build strength towards pull-ups/chin-ups, which I am nowhere at all near and don't have the space for anyhow. A lot of the programs include something in this family so it's good to think about an alternative. I tried dumbbell pullovers before I got the straps and they were fine until I ran into grip problems.
5) Trap barbell: I got this one (yes, I have Amazon Prime) and plan to use it for deadlifts starting next week. The power blocks go to 48 lbs total and the bar is 50 lbs, so I think the jump should go smoothly. I got a pair each of 2.5 lb and 5 lb weights and have been looking for used sets on Craig's List, although my experience so far has been that people want to sell BIG sets - fine if you're buying everything all at once, less good if you're trying for piecemeal.
6) In June when I get more funds I plan on purchasing a barbell and this squat stand. Since I lift alone I did not want to do anything without taking safety into account, and this is the only option outside of a power rack that impressed me with the safety features. A lot of what I've seen on CL are just squat stands without safety arms. You can get cheap-ish racks on Amazon but I didn't love the look of them. It's also one of the few options that will fit in my basement, which of course might not be a thing for you.
I started with dumbbells for a few reasons and in hindsight I don't regret my decision or think it was a waste of time or money. I had no prior strength training so dumbbells let me start small and build up some strength - if I'd started with a barbell I'd probably want to start with a lighter training bar, so there's an extra expense already. I was not going to do overhead lifts, back squats, or bench presses alone without a rack, which was a pretty big purchase. Dumbbells I started light enough that I've felt comfortable without a spotter. And it's not like I won't continue using them in the future - they're heavy enough that they'll be useful for accessory exercises.
Anyhow, another long post! I'm happy to answer any questions - I've been living and breathing this stuff for a while and am firmly in the excited beginner stage.2 -
I have that same bench and it works great for me.
I have an adjustable dumbbell set that goes to 50 pounds a hand and I've grown to hate changing the plates. The one advantage to the set I have is since it's conventionally shaped, I can use the plates on something else besides the dumbbell bars.
I bought a light barbell for deadlifts (by CAP) that works with the same screw on mechanism that my dumbbells do, and this kettlebell handle to use with the plates for goblet squats or kettlebell swings. I can keep everything pretty much loaded up with minimum plate switching (and even just use plates themselves for some of the minor accessory lifts).
Anyway, hatred of plate changing is something to think of when considering a home dumbbell set, and this is how I got around it. I'll never want to lift very heavy since it triggers my migraines, so this is weight enough and equipment enough for me. I might look into that suspension system, though.2 -
I have a quick question:
I've spent the day today working in my yard, getting my new planting boxes ready. This involved digging up the sod where the 3 boxes were going to go, then mixing up my planting material with a rake, shoveling it into the boxes, tamping down t-posts on each end of the boxes, and doing the same for a flower bed I have started. In this work alone, I spent at least 2 hours.
How would I figure out how many calories I might have burned doing that? I usually look at calorielab.com, but is that even accurate? Since I'm in the middle of a diet break at maintenance, do I need to eat back part of those exercise calories?0 -
I usually take the MFP estimate for gardening, and take 3/4 of the estimated calories -- figuring that MFP doesn't know if I'm sitting on the ground muttering at the deer, or sitting there trying to figure out where the plants are going to go, or why on earth is the stupid apple tree leaning again?1
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Thanks, all! I'm also a Prime member, so I got the CAP set, and one of the Marcy benches (the collapsible one, since this room will still double as my office/guest room) and the Marcy storage rack.
I'm not super keen with how New Rules thumbs down endurance cardio, since I'm not giving up the half marathon training any time soon, and I love swimming and barre and spin, but I think I can figure out how to work both in, especially since lifting won't require going to the gym.1 -
collectingblues wrote: »I usually take the MFP estimate for gardening, and take 3/4 of the estimated calories -- figuring that MFP doesn't know if I'm sitting on the ground muttering at the deer, or sitting there trying to figure out where the plants are going to go, or why on earth is the stupid apple tree leaning again?
ah crud lol
If I only count an hour of that time and use the gardening (which would be only counting half of the actually activity time period), I still come up with needing 490 extra calories today!
It's 11 pm and I'm heading to bed - that ain't gonna happen today lol I'll just eat something extra tomorrow; maybe have cottage cheese with my breakfast.
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bmeadows380 wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »I usually take the MFP estimate for gardening, and take 3/4 of the estimated calories -- figuring that MFP doesn't know if I'm sitting on the ground muttering at the deer, or sitting there trying to figure out where the plants are going to go, or why on earth is the stupid apple tree leaning again?
ah crud lol
If I only count an hour of that time and use the gardening (which would be only counting half of the actually activity time period), I still come up with needing 490 extra calories today!
It's 11 pm and I'm heading to bed - that ain't gonna happen today lol I'll just eat something extra tomorrow; maybe have cottage cheese with my breakfast.
One day won't kill you. Eat when you're hungry -- and you might be ravenous tomorrow with all of that work today.1
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