Science undecided of CICO?

NovusDies wrote: »

Aaron_K123 wrote: »

snickerscharlie wrote: »

Cookies In, Cookies Out works for me. Oh, and Cake.

If your body is producing cookies you might want to go get that checked out.

I was in the middle of typing 'Cannoli In Crap Out'

Just wanted to make sure that what your body does produce isn't being mistaken for cookie dough.

deannalfisher wrote: »

TR0berts wrote: »

deannalfisher wrote: »

snickerscharlie wrote: »

Cookies In, Cookies Out works for me. Oh, and Cake.

as long as it doesn't stand for carrots in, carrots out

But, carrot cake...

sooo wrong! vegetables don't belong in cake!

I have a zucchini that refuses to let itself be stifled by other people's ideas of what it has to be. It wants to be cake, goldarnit!

janejellyroll wrote: »

Sometimes you just have to accept being in the minority.

Accept that my opinion is not universally correct? You have apparently never met me.

A video of Dr. Bikman (professor at BYU) discussing some aspects of a caloric vs. hormonal model of weight loss


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t1JN0RgvO4

NovusDies wrote: »

kimny72 wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

TR0berts wrote: »

deannalfisher wrote: »

snickerscharlie wrote: »

Cookies In, Cookies Out works for me. Oh, and Cake.

as long as it doesn't stand for carrots in, carrots out

But, carrot cake...

What is it with you people and cake? Has no one here ever tried pie?!?

Sorry, but that would be PIPO, and we're in the CICO cult. You need to get your physics straight.

At least my cult will never be pronounced 'sicko' or 'pyscho'.

Might be pee-poo, though.

stevencloser wrote: »

Anyone want to check that video out? Just from looking up the dude he looks like a keto zealot.

Glad to see you have an open mind and are willing to look at information that conflicts with your understanding - the scientific method requires constant challenging. Clearly its not worth listening to a professor from Brigham Young University, what could he possibly know that you don't? Even if he is a keto zealot - why aren't you interested in learning what scientific evidence leads such a large community of educated people to have come to different conclusions than your? Are you just interested in tribalism where evidence and reason play know role in the debate?

To look at the current state of health in America and the world, and the fairly radical shift in a relatively short period of time, and conclude that 100% of the problem is non-complaint people and that we are certain that the current guidelines/guidance from the health/medical community are totally correct and accurate and clearly not the problem and therefore doesn't need to be continually examined and questioned seems ridiculous to me.

CICO may be a simple enough of a black box to work for many people, but it doesn't work that way in the long run for many others and I continue to believe that we need to open up the black box and figure out whats going on at a deeper level (which I think the hormonal model begins to do).

All1971 wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

Anyone want to check that video out? Just from looking up the dude he looks like a keto zealot.

Glad to see you have an open mind and are willing to look at information that conflicts with your understanding - the scientific method requires constant challenging. Clearly its not worth listening to a professor from Brigham Young University, what could he possibly know that you don't? Even if he is a keto zealot - why aren't you interested in learning what scientific evidence leads such a large community of educated people to have come to different conclusions than your? Are you just interested in tribalism where evidence and reason play know role in the debate?

To look at the current state of health in America and the world, and the fairly radical shift in a relatively short period of time, and conclude that 100% of the problem is non-complaint people and that we are certain that the current guidelines/guidance from the health/medical community are totally correct and accurate and clearly not the problem and therefore doesn't need to be continually examined and questioned seems ridiculous to me.

CICO may be a simple enough of a black box to work for many people, but it doesn't work that way in the long run for many others and I continue to believe that we need to open up the black box and figure out whats going on at a deeper level (which I think the hormonal model begins to do).

Here's the thing: It's not that people here are uninterested in learning new things (I've found that the posters here have a wide variety of knowledge when it comes to nutrition and fitness, including educating themselves on the positions they don't necessarily agree with), it's just that it's really common for relatively new users to swing into a conversation and drop a YouTube link (often a lecture about keto, weirdly enough) and then don't engage in the conversation after that. It's impossible for people to watch all the videos and sadly, not everyone who posts them is open to discussion afterwards (I'm sure that isn't the case with you).

If you're interested in discussing the claims, it might be easier to get a response if you make the argument in your own words (and you can also post links for people who are interested in learning more). I think most frequent posters have been burned by people dropping YouTube links and then vanishing (I know I have).

AnnPT77 wrote: »

All1971 wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

Anyone want to check that video out? Just from looking up the dude he looks like a keto zealot.

Glad to see you have an open mind and are willing to look at information that conflicts with your understanding - the scientific method requires constant challenging. Clearly its not worth listening to a professor from Brigham Young University, what could he possibly know that you don't? Even if he is a keto zealot - why aren't you interested in learning what scientific evidence leads such a large community of educated people to have come to different conclusions than your? Are you just interested in tribalism where evidence and reason play know role in the debate?

To look at the current state of health in America and the world, and the fairly radical shift in a relatively short period of time, and conclude that 100% of the problem is non-complaint people and that we are certain that the current guidelines/guidance from the health/medical community are totally correct and accurate and clearly not the problem and therefore doesn't need to be continually examined and questioned seems ridiculous to me.

CICO may be a simple enough of a black box to work for many people, but it doesn't work that way in the long run for many others and I continue to believe that we need to open up the black box and figure out whats going on at a deeper level (which I think the hormonal model begins to do).

The first time when encountering a new idea, ideally one attends to it thoughtfully, and checks advocates' and critics' arguments and evidence carefully. The second through maybe 4th or 5th time, one skims to see if there's a new slant on the thesis, or new and more persuasive evidence. By the 10th or 20th, one eye-rolls and refuses to watch the video. It's just human nature.

Especially when that video is 35 minutes long...

stevencloser wrote: »

All1971 wrote: »

A video of Dr. Bikman (professor at BYU) discussing some aspects of a caloric vs. hormonal model of weight loss


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t1JN0RgvO4

Anyone want to check that video out? Just from looking up the dude he looks like a keto zealot.

I made it about 15 minutes through. Yes, he is. Funny thing is that he started out OK, but he quickly lost his way and started talking about mouse studies and acute occurrences, ignoring overall/long-term fat/weight management. And he's on the insulin theory. You know, the one that has been thoroughly debunked.

annaskiski wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

All1971 wrote: »

No a blog post is not a comprehensive review of the scientific literature, but the blog cites a scientific study to support its assertion (found here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10049982 )

Some may say that CICO is settled science and some say it is not - there are arguments to be made on both sides and I think its worth people exploring the issues and arguments.

That study has nothing to do with CICO. It only proves what we already knew which is that there are ways of eating that satiate you and there are ways of eating that can potentially create negative satiation. If you eat an unbalanced high GI meal it will cause an insulin spike and since insulin is one of the hunger hormones you will get hungry again and maybe hungrier in a short amount of time.

ETA: Also it was taken out of context for use in that blog. If you take that same high GI food and put it as part of a balanced meal it will not cause the insulin spike and the resulting hunger.

Was about to say the same thing. That study says:

CONCLUSIONS:

The rapid absorption of glucose after consumption of high-GI meals induces a sequence of hormonal and metabolic changes that promote excessive food intake in obese subjects. Additional studies are needed to examine the relationship between dietary GI and long-term body weight regulation.

i.e. certain food can make you hungrier than others. If you give in, you increase your energy intake (CI).

How anyone interprets this as questioning the formula for energy balance is beyond me...

This thread blew up while I was offline for a day and I haven't yet seen if anyone has pointed this out, but that was an n=12 study. It's hardly conclusive in any event.

AnvilHead wrote: »

All1971 wrote: »

...Clearly its not worth listening to a professor from Brigham Young University, what could he possibly know that you don't?...

The appeal to authority holds no water. Dr. Oz did his undergraduate studies at Harvard and earned his M.D. at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. A prestigious pedigree, but he's still a woo peddler and a fraud.

Obesity is multifactorial, but that in no way negates CICO. Don't conflate human behavioral factors with laws of physics.

If you want to dig deeper into the issues surrounding obesity, start here: http://www.shiftn.com/obesity/Full-Map.html

Which is even worse than just being ignorant as he probably knows what he says is a lie but would never admit it publicly as he would lose money.