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Is bodybuilding bad for society, from a body positivity perspective?
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Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
Or, conversely, are you helping society by striving to get the body you want and, thus, inspiring others to do the same?
Seriously, if we were all mediocre so that no one feels "bad" just how would we advance as a society?
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Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
Or, conversely, are you helping society by striving to get the body you want and, thus, inspiring others to do the same?
Seriously, if we were all mediocre so that no one feels "bad" just how would we advance as a society?
Apparently it depends on my motives.
eta: If I'm doing it because I like the way I look, I'm selfish. If I'm doing it as an inspiration for others I'm benefiting society. Frankly, I think the latter motive is smug and condescending, but that's just me.13 -
Just throwing this in there for your (relative to the discussion) entertainment:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hWpiZ2gA7cw
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You're drawing false conclusions. Feeling inferior about how much you can squat is no different than feeling inferior about how well you can write, or how well you can speak, or how well you can play basketball. Feeling inferior because who you are and what you look like does not conform to societal ideals is not the same.10 -
You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.11
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Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.singingflutelady wrote: »Blaming everything on society is a cop out
You've mentioned powerlifting a few times now. How is training for powerlifting any more 'virtuous' than training for physique? Both of them are a specific individual end goal. Is it because you think being able to lift a lot of weight won't hurt people's feelings as much as having a good body?I'm comparing powerlifting/strength training to bodybuilding. Unless you think anyone who doesn't bodybuild is "average." Neither the bodybuilder nor the powerlifter is average. Neither should feel bad about their body. The point I'm exploring is whether it is good for society and our collective idea of body image ideals to pursue bodybuilding in the first place.
[ETA:] I couldn't care less how my body makes anybody else feel. That's their problem. And I don't even in the least think it's detrimental to society for a person to want to look good and be in shape. If anything, they're setting a good example that wouldn't hurt others to strive for. We all make our own choices, and if somebody chooses to be out of shape and not try to develop an aesthetic body, that's their decision and theirs alone.
I can't look like an elite bodybuilder - I don't have the genetics for it. The fact that others do doesn't diminish my enjoyment, nor does it make me feel inferior. I don't consider it unfair to me or detrimental to society that they can do something I'm not able to.
Anybody can develop their body to their own individual potential and be reasonably aesthetic. Most people don't because it's a lot of work and takes a lot of discipline. There's nothing unfair about that. Life isn't fair and people need to deal with that. "Fair" is the place you take your pig to get a blue ribbon.10 -
Not at all. Just questioning whether people should go to the gym to get fit and strong, or to look good. I know there's a lot of overlap between those two things, but bodybuilding indexes on looking good.IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Not everyone has as their priority an aesthetic body. Maybe their career or family is. Should they not try to advance in their career because NOT EVERYONE can attain CEO status? Or should people not marry because some people can't find a partner?
Trying to push down people from their desire to see what their God-given potential is, (in whatever ethical arena) is really a SELFISH thing to do.
It would be selfish to ban bodybuilding as a sport, but not selfish for an individual to decide that their participation in the sport was a net negative for society. That would be selfless, IMO. The debate is how we each answer that individual ethical question.
Wait, whut???
Are you actually arguing that people should let themselves get fat and unfit to spare the feelings of the people around them???
Why should people's motives matter? This is like all the posts where OP asks for help losing vanity weight, and someone always posts a judgy response about how that's not a good motive for weight loss. Do you think that people should only lose weight if it's based on health objectives, because losing vanity weight could make people who are having trouble getting to the top of a healthy weight feel bad?
I've worked hard with my diet to get my body into a (low) healthy weight range. I've worked hard in the gym and on the road to get strong, visible muscles. Like others here, I look (and feel) younger than I am (67). Everything I do beyond adequate nutrition and movement to maintain health is purely for vanity. Do you think I'm harming society by striving for a body and health goal that others in my age group can't or choose not to persue?
Or, conversely, are you helping society by striving to get the body you want and, thus, inspiring others to do the same?
Seriously, if we were all mediocre so that no one feels "bad" just how would we advance as a society?
Apparently it depends on my motives.
eta: If I'm doing it because I like the way I look, I'm selfish. If I'm doing it as an inspiration for others I'm benefiting society. Frankly, I think the latter motive is smug and condescending, but that's just me.
"I'm not doing this workout for me, I'm doing it for the children!"16 -
IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Where is the logic? There is none. It is HYPOCRISY.
Body positivity premise: you should feel good about your body no matter your size.
Your argument: you should only feel good about your body if it is average.
Wow, not at all. Again, I'm comparing powerlifting/strength training to bodybuilding. Unless you think anyone who doesn't bodybuild is "average."
But if someone (person A) built a particular muscular body with the motive of looking fabulous, and it makes another person with a less-muscular body (person B ) feel bad about themselves, how is that different from the case where someone (person C) built the identical type of muscular body with the motive of being strong, and person B sees them? Won't they feel just as bad?
Or do they ask the muscular person why they got muscular, then decide whether they should feel bad?
If the person who weight trains has mixed motives, both strength and appearance, should person B feel 50% bad about themselves?
I'm in the camp of those who feel this is mainly about person B. I'd like person B - and everyone else - to be able to find a way to value and appreciate his/her own choices, natural talents, refined skills, hard work, and the accomplishments that flow from all of them. I'd like everyone to be able to feel happy and confident in his/her own body, no matter how it looks, and no matter whether they'd like to change it, or are working on changing it, or are just accepting the way it is.
I don't know how to do that. I don't think it would happen by making bodybuilding be universally acknowledged as an unethical or unkind thing to do, though.11 -
singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.4 -
Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.singingflutelady wrote: »Blaming everything on society is a cop out
You've mentioned powerlifting a few times now. How is training for powerlifting any more 'virtuous' than training for physique? Both of them are a specific individual end goal. Is it because you think being able to lift a lot of weight won't hurt people's feelings as much as having a good body?I'm comparing powerlifting/strength training to bodybuilding. Unless you think anyone who doesn't bodybuild is "average." Neither the bodybuilder nor the powerlifter is average. Neither should feel bad about their body. The point I'm exploring is whether it is good for society and our collective idea of body image ideals to pursue bodybuilding in the first place.
Because apparently, training to look your best is selfish (i.e. the only reason you would do it is to make other people feel bad about themselves), but training to be the strongest, fastest, etc is a selfless act that should be promoted by society... or some other such nonsense.4 -
You're drawing false conclusions. Feeling inferior about how much you can squat is no different than feeling inferior about how well you can write, or how well you can speak, or how well you can play basketball. Feeling inferior because who you are and what you look like does not conform to societal ideals is not the same.
Here's where I'm having trouble following your logic - you are assigning virtue to motives rather than actual accomplishments. How does a power-lifter who lifts purely because they like the way they look when they're at the top of their game fit into the virtue/selfish paradigm you've created?
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singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Why are you assuming that we all live a priviledged life? You don't know anything about the life experiences of those you are chatting with.
HINT: some posters in this thread are recovered from severe eating disorders.10 -
You've mentioned powerlifting a few times now. How is training for powerlifting any more 'virtuous' than training for physique? Both of them are a specific individual end goal. Is it because you think being able to lift a lot of weight won't hurt people's feelings as much as having a good body?
Virtue was your word, not mine. Yes, the point I'm exploring is whether you optimize for having a perfect-looking body, you cause more harm than if you optimize for having a functional body. Power lifters are not perpetuating any kind of aesthetic ideal. Action figures and movie stars do not look like power lifters.
I'll also point out to those that didn't notice, this isn't MY argument. I'm exploring it because I came across it debating someone else, and if I just agree with you all it doesn't do me any good.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I understand the argument that you are making, but the problem is not that there are bodybuilders who are willing to sacrifice and spend unending hours in a gym to achieve what they believe are the 'perfect' body (and more than likely damage their health with various illegal substances to achieve their goals). The actual problem is a societal issue with how the bodybuilders are perceived. Banning the 'sport' of bodybuilding will not solve the problem, society would simply move on to the next thing that gets idolized/glorified/etc.
I mean, if you were to ban bodybuilding because it makes some people feel bad about themselves, what gets banned next? Blue eyes, blonde hair, beauty....? You should do a Google search on 'The Twilight Zone' - they actually covered this very topic more than 40 years ago by depicting a society that forced all people who had reached puberty to undergo plastic surgery so that all people would be the same (thus eliminating envy). There have also been a number of SciFi writers who have covered this topic extensively.
A classic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
I was actually reading this thread just to see if anyone had posted a link to this short story.
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
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singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Sexual abuse?!?! How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?!?2 -
singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Not BS at all - there are millions of people the world over who have overcome their circumstances to achieve great things (even when society had given up on them), just like there are millions who want to blame their circumstances for their lot in life.5 -
singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Acknowledging that there are boundaries between myself and others and that their choices don't have to impact how I think of myself isn't pretending that everything they or I have achieved came to us purely on merit.
I think everyone here gets that we have diverse backgrounds and we're all impacted by our circumstances. We just disagree that it's reasonable to expect others to change their lives to try to avoid making anyone ever feel unhappy or insecure.10 -
singingflutelady wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Sexual abuse?!?! How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?!?
You're getting really worked up about this. You and another poster were making the point that individual responsibility trumps all else. Sexual abuse is an example of how not everything is as easy for some people as for others.9 -
singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
So what's your point? That everybody should consider that others can't do what they can do, and we should all settle for the lowest common denominator so we don't run the chance of offending anybody? I don't buy that at all. It goes back to the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality, which doesn't in any way resemble how real life works.
You can choose to better yourself to the best of your abilities, or you can wallow in self-pity and use it as an excuse. You don't have any idea about my (or anybody else's) upbringing, the challenges/issues I (or anybody else) may have dealt with. I didn't use them as an excuse, I wrote them off as 'it is what it is' and got on with my life. It's not some triumphant story of overcoming obstacles, it's simply that I didn't let my past determine my future.
Any successes I've had in life didn't come to me "purely on merit" - they came to me because I put my mind to it and worked damn hard and sacrificed for them. I don't sit around waiting for things to fall into my lap or worrying about what others have that I don't. If I want something, I know I have to earn it, and that's what I do.8 -
singingflutelady wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »You are the only one in control of if you feel inferior or not.Yeah, but it makes people feel better than having to accept responsibility for their own actions.
That's kind of BS. In the end we're all in control of ourselves, but for person A's circumstances, maintaining that control may be 100x harder than for person B's circumstances. For example, let's say you were sexually abused as a child. The trauma you've experience from that may distort your body image in ways that you or I will never understand. Personal responsibility is only part of the equation, no matter how much you'd like to stick your head in the ground and pretend every success you've achieved came to you purely on merit. It seems worthwhile to value the fact that we all come from different places, and our environment and circumstances matter.
Sexual abuse?!?! How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about?!?
You're getting really worked up about this. You and another poster were making the point that individual responsibility trumps all else. Sexual abuse is an example of how not everything is as easy for some people as for others.
Not being easy doesn't equal impossible. Unless you have a severe mental illness or cognitive impairment as an adult you are responsible for your actions.4
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