Ancient Bone broth and the nutritional infi
Replies
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clsumrall1 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Have you seen a GI for your digestive issues?
Yes am still seeing them That was my original point because after 30 years with crohns and IBS and too many other issues I for the first time am getting relief. It’s making a huge difference. In getting a little quality of life for the first time.
I am happy to hear you are getting relief. Dealing with chronic issues can be emotionally and physically devastating.7 -
clsumrall1 wrote: »
If you check the Mayo Clinic Forum it take you right to the Mayo Clinic site. FYI. I have a master degree in Chemistry thank you very much for sharing your knowledge to the extent you have. This is a simple thread and why people feel the need to attack others is beyond me
The Mayo clinic forums is not the same thing as the Mayo clinic.clsumrall1 wrote: »Check out the Mayo Clinic like I did. LEAKY GUT has become a catch all phrase which includes those symptoms. I find the
Mayo Clinic To be believeable and Informative
Umm.. no. They are all types of herpesviruses, but they are not the same.Just like chronic fatigue syndrome became a catch all phrase in the 80’s we know it all started with the Epstein Barr virus which is the same as chicken pox Mono ect.
You owe me a new irony meter.Feel free to educate yourself
I educated myself when I went to nursing school many years ago. I also use critical thinking skills to help me separate science from pseudoscience. You should take your own advice and educate yourself as nothing you have posted in this thread is based on sciences .
I think people are frustrated that you're propounding all sorts of dodgy nutritional, medical and scientific opinion as known fact. Look, if what you're doing works for you, fine. But using junk science to justify your consumption of meat soup is a bit much.14 -
clsumrall1 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Have you seen a GI for your digestive issues?
Yes am still seeing them That was my original point because after 30 years with crohns and IBS and too many other issues I for the first time am getting relief. It’s making a huge difference. In getting a little quality of life for the first time.
That's incredible that you went 30 years of flare without having major surgery. I'm surprised that your dr let you go that long. Have you tried biologics? They are very effective in lots of people. I would be dead if I relied on diet alone. I've only been diagnosed for 3.5 years and I've already had a proctocolectomy (which has helped more than any diet or meds could).4 -
https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/digestive-diseases/food-sensitivities-may-affect-gut-barrier-function. For your entertainment please check out this feed.7
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Intestinal permeability and "leaky gut syndrome" are not the same thing12
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clsumrall1 wrote: »https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/digestive-diseases/food-sensitivities-may-affect-gut-barrier-function. For your entertainment please check out this feed.
This is better and a more reputable source. It says nothing about leaky gut though. Just, please read everything and with seeking truth your primary objective. This is a direct quote from that article: "Intriguing as the study is, Dr. Vazquez Roque observes that CLE is not a well-recognized methodology for studying the intestinal barrier and that some of the commercial assays for gut permeability have not been validated at the research level for use in clinical practice."7 -
That was not my understanding my point I so poorly made was all of the diseases share a lot of common threads.4
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clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
btw, broth is a vegetable product and stock has bones. so like chicken stock or beef stock. mmmm...shrimp stock.2 -
I have had many surgeries That’s my point. I’m such a work horse and high threshold of pain but I finally became fully disabled because of this illness. Surgery after surgery. No gallbladder left and now liver disease because of the holistic approach I took-in the 80’s. And now I get gamma globulin infusions every 28 days I started on those in 1980 after a year had to stop and restart it in 2015.singingflutelady wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Have you seen a GI for your digestive issues?
Yes am still seeing them That was my original point because after 30 years with crohns and IBS and too many other issues I for the first time am getting relief. It’s making a huge difference. In getting a little quality of life for the first time.
That's incredible that you went 30 years of flare without having major surgery. I'm surprised that your dr let you go that long. Have you tried biologics? They are very effective in lots of people. I would be dead if I relied on diet alone. I've only been diagnosed for 3.5 years and I've already had a proctocolectomy (which has helped more than any diet or meds could).
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clsumrall1 wrote: »https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/digestive-diseases/food-sensitivities-may-affect-gut-barrier-function. For your entertainment please check out this feed.
Excellent article, it backs up what people have been telling you throughout this thread. Intestinal permeability is a thing, related to some auto-immune issues and food intolerances. Where are you getting "leaky gut" from?
"Since then, loss of intestinal barrier integrity has been shown to affect immune homeostasis and play a key role in the development of a variety of conditions, including inflammatory bowel disease, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), celiac disease, Clostridium difficile infection, graft-versus-host disease, type 1 diabetes mellitus, rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune disorders."
Is this why you insist on lumping together a group of unrelated issues? The fact that they are mentioned in the same sentence doesn't make them the same thing. That's basic reading comprehension.
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clsumrall1 wrote: »
I have had many surgeries That’s my point. I’m such a work horse and high threshold of pain but I finally became fully disabled because of this illness. Surgery after surgery. No gallbladder left and now liver disease because of the holistic approach I took-in the 80’s. And now I get gamma globulin infusions every 28 days I started on those in 1980 after a year had to stop and restart it in 2015.singingflutelady wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »Have you seen a GI for your digestive issues?
Yes am still seeing them That was my original point because after 30 years with crohns and IBS and too many other issues I for the first time am getting relief. It’s making a huge difference. In getting a little quality of life for the first time.
That's incredible that you went 30 years of flare without having major surgery. I'm surprised that your dr let you go that long. Have you tried biologics? They are very effective in lots of people. I would be dead if I relied on diet alone. I've only been diagnosed for 3.5 years and I've already had a proctocolectomy (which has helped more than any diet or meds could).
How much of your intestines have you had removed and why haven't you tried a biologic yet? You only mentioned gallbladder and liver. They are the gold standard. I would stay far far away from holistic approaches if it caused so much damage to your body.5 -
You just made our point on why we are trying to make you understand that your research is flawed. You have liver disease because of a holistic approach you took. Trust me, I believe that many holistic approaches can be effective but some are dangerous or useless. I'm an environmental scientist and I avoid chemicals that I know to be dangerous or harmful. I have personal beliefs and practices others would consider woo but I also wouldn't trust my longterm health to unverified sources. You trusted at the time that what you are doing was good for you and now have liver disease because of that blind trust. Can you at least understand now why we are trying to save you from another possible dangerous outcome. It's wonderful that you are feeling better but realize that it may be something besides the broth. There is no harm in continuing to have the broth but don't think it is going to cure you. You may end up with more health issues than you already have.11
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clsumrall1 wrote: »That was not my understanding my point I so poorly made was all of the diseases share a lot of common threads.
If that was you're point then yes, you did a really poor job of making it (which is troublesome given that you have a masters in chemistry and presumably have had to communicate information very accurately using various modes of communication). What you actually ended up saying, with regards to various diseases, was:
Which implies that IBS, Crohn's, and colitis are all the same thing. It also implies that leaky gut is an actual diagnosis which is a whole other issue. So what you did in that one sentence was say that these three conditions are actually one in the same. You did a similar thing earlier today when you wrote,For those who don’t believe in leaky gut another name for it is I B S [sic] and Chron’s [sic] disease Colitis ect.
The Epstein–Barr virus is not the same as the varicella-zoster virus which is what causes chicken pox.Just like chronic fatigue syndrome became a catch all phrase in the 80’s we know it all started with the Epstein Barr virus which is the same as chicken pox Mono ect.
So here's the thing. People aren't "attacking" you because we blindly think you're wrong. What's happening is that you're continuously communicating information that is very clearly incorrect and then seriously digging your heels in when you're being challenged on the accuracy of your statements. By digging your heels in, not linking to peer reviewed articles (which is ironic given your academic background), not linking to articles say, the CDC or the WHO, etc., you are seriously not helping your case.
So again, to go back to my original point. If what you're really trying to say is that "the diseases share a lot of common threads" then you're not making that point at all because what you're continually saying is that X disease/virus is the same thing as Y disease/virus.8 -
clsumrall1 wrote: »https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/digestive-diseases/food-sensitivities-may-affect-gut-barrier-function. For your entertainment please check out this feed.
"Uncertainty remains". Even the scientists doing the studies are aware of the variables and the difficulties presented in conducting them. They're still theorising at this point and make it clear they haven't yet pinpointed all the factors that go into affecting intestinal sensitivity, so they can't say for certain why some people have sensitivities and some don't. In other words, the studies haven't drawn any firm conclusions, except that it's looking like genetic predisposition and diet may be part of the reasons some people experience intestinal disorders.3 -
clsumrall1 wrote: »debrakgoogins wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »If you check the Mayo Clinic Forum it take you right to the Mayo Clinic site. FYI. I have a master degree in Chemistry thank you very much for sharing your knowledge to the extent you have. This is a simple thread and why people feel the need to attack others is beyond me
Having a masters degree in Chemistry is vastly different than having a masters degree in say...food science or nutrition. I am finishing my masters in sustainability and environmental compliance but that doesn't make me any more informed on medical diseases than you. BUT I do know this because of studying scholarly sources (not blogs and forums), leaky gut is not the same as IBS or Chrons; Epstein Barre is not the same as Chicken Pox; GMO is not harmful for consumption (refer back to my masters because, yes, this is something I am VERY informed about); and last but not least, giving you constructive feedback when your claims are patently incorrect and downright dangerous is not attacking you - it is informative and generous. Having completed a masters degree, you should understand that continual learning and constructive debate is a gift, not an attack.
What claim have I so called made by sharing a string ng to an article I had read. I haven’t made up this info. And I find it hard to believe that all these experts responding with such negativity have an agenda of helping vs hurting. And did I ever say I bre better than someone else who I haven’t met. But a lot of you said that about me. Shows me there very finite mind
I've been reading along this train wreck from the beginning and finally feel like I have to chime in.
Support comes in a lot of forms. Some people are looking only for blind encouragement of things they've already made up their minds to try. Any sort of questioning about the logic behind how the person came to that decision, where they got their info from, is perceived as being an attack - it sort of seems like you are falling in that category.
Others however, view support in the form of "helping me avoid making mistakes that others have already learned from" as being extremely valuable. There is a VAST amount of nonsense, pseudoscience and woo that is prevalent and widely propagated these days due to the ease of access to information that the average person has these days. There are countless members here who have done extensive research, value peer reviewed science and well vetted sources as helping to dispel this woo and focus people on actual hard science and repeatable results from well designed studies. Whether you see this or not - this IS helpful, for so many people - who are deluded and confused by the mass appeal of blog postings and social media. Simply flouting a degree, a well known medical clinic as an affiliation - does not mean that this information is reliable and solid.
Often people come to this site who have spent years struggling with health and weight loss issues. The charlatans that prey on these people with just enough sciencey sounding words to make them think that some of these conditions are legit, that the secret to addressing them and finally finding relief or success lies within the miracle cure that the snake oil salesman is peddling - this is what the people you are labeling as "experts" are trying to dispel. You may not respond well to it - but there are countless people who are tremendously grateful to realize that they have been duped, that they've been continuing to try to follow a method that will not actually provide them the relief and success they desire - and to be put on the correct path toward long term health and wellness.
No one truly benefits from the "what can it hurt" mindset. Placebo effect and confirmation bias are powerful things - but at the end of the day - getting at the root cause of the issue and finding a method to truly impact it is far more beneficial. Again, as someone who claims to have an advanced scientific degree, I would think you would appreciate getting past the flash bang part of the experiment that makes an initial impression, and focusing on the molecular reaction that truly explains what is happening.
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dadsafrantic wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
btw, broth is a vegetable product and stock has bones. so like chicken stock or beef stock. mmmm...shrimp stock.
Not exactly, stock has bones and broth does not, correct. That doesn't mean that broth can't come from animal proteins - most of the time it does really. The difference between stock and broth is that stock comes from simmering bones and broth comes from simmering meat. Links from The Kitchn, Alton Brown, Food and Wine, and the Food Network.2 -
dadsafrantic wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
btw, broth is a vegetable product and stock has bones. so like chicken stock or beef stock. mmmm...shrimp stock.
Not exactly, stock has bones and broth does not, correct. That doesn't mean that broth can't come from animal proteins - most of the time it does really. The difference between stock and broth is that stock comes from simmering bones and broth comes from simmering meat. Links from The Kitchn, Alton Brown, Food and Wine, and the Food Network.
Interesting. So, when I cook and use vegetable... flavored simmering liquid, is that a broth, a stock, or is there some other more accurate but less-often used term for it?0 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »dadsafrantic wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
btw, broth is a vegetable product and stock has bones. so like chicken stock or beef stock. mmmm...shrimp stock.
Not exactly, stock has bones and broth does not, correct. That doesn't mean that broth can't come from animal proteins - most of the time it does really. The difference between stock and broth is that stock comes from simmering bones and broth comes from simmering meat. Links from The Kitchn, Alton Brown, Food and Wine, and the Food Network.
Interesting. So, when I cook and use vegetable... flavored simmering liquid, is that a broth, a stock, or is there some other more accurate but less-often used term for it?
I suspect the term that is a combination of most used and most accurate would be "vegetable broth". It would be easy to argue that "well it's also not broth because there was no meat used to make it" but you could also argue, "I'm using 'vegetable' to denote the fact that there was no meat used in the same way people say 'veggie sausage'." Either way, it's not stock because of the lack of bones.2 -
Ah okay. Thanks!0
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WinoGelato wrote: »
No one truly benefits from the "what can it hurt" mindset.
In fact, many have been harmed by it
http://whatstheharm.net
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clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
facts aren't hating. They are ... FACTS.7 -
callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »clsumrall1 wrote: »Lol. Well what caught my interest is the personal results I haveHad. I’m lucky here in NE Pennsylvania I have great access to dairy and farm which are all grass feed cow lamb pork. It’s so clean and quite different from grain fed. To make bone broth which has quite different profile than stock or regular broth. FYI. Must cook for about 3 days and requires apple cider vinegar that is organic and raw to do the proper treatment. I us marrow bones chicken feet and carcass as well as lamb and pork. FYI do your due diligence. please, and if you don’t like the discussion feel free to leave. But stop the hate ing
facts aren't hating. They are ... FACTS.
Also anecdata is not data.4 -
Millicent3015 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Millicent3015 wrote: »I had bone tablets as a child for calcium deficiency, but "powdered bone broth" sounds like you're just buying fancy stock cubes. Personally I'd just use Bovril.
Is that what that means? I was thinking it meant pulverized bones, not dehydrated stock. But I'm betting you're probably right.
Pulverised animal bones is what chalk used to be made of, and it was given in tablet form to children with calcium deficiency. To pulverise bones at home you'd need to dry them out in an oven on low heat for about three days before grinding them (while presumably chanting "fee fi fo fum").
Well, it sounded (in the OP) like she was talking about a commercial product, since she said she "invested" in it -- not something she was making herself. But the phrase "powdered bone broth" for (finely granulated ??) instant bouillon is just as weird as making up a new name for stock, IMO. It's just so the people touting this stuff can pretend they've invented some new thing, rather than just slapped a new name on something people have been doing for millennia.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Millicent3015 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Millicent3015 wrote: »I had bone tablets as a child for calcium deficiency, but "powdered bone broth" sounds like you're just buying fancy stock cubes. Personally I'd just use Bovril.
Is that what that means? I was thinking it meant pulverized bones, not dehydrated stock. But I'm betting you're probably right.
Pulverised animal bones is what chalk used to be made of, and it was given in tablet form to children with calcium deficiency. To pulverise bones at home you'd need to dry them out in an oven on low heat for about three days before grinding them (while presumably chanting "fee fi fo fum").
Well, it sounded (in the OP) like she was talking about a commercial product, since she said she "invested" in it -- not something she was making herself. But the phrase "powdered bone broth" for (finely granulated ??) instant bouillon is just as weird as making up a new name for stock, IMO. It's just so the people touting this stuff can pretend they've invented some new thing, rather than just slapped a new name on something people have been doing for millennia.
If you google powdered bone broth, it is unfortunately a product you can buy
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