The psychology of needing to eat until stuffed - a discussion
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kommodevaran wrote: »
I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.kshama2001 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
That's really interesting... not something I hear much on these boards. But then again, maybe it just gets drowned out by the usual chanting.2 -
I have struggle with overeating to the point that I can't move. It doesn't happen often because for most of my life I've been "dieting". My diets have always consisted of low fat, until recently. I've been doing KETO for almost three weeks and I gotta tell you it's a big difference on how satisfy I feel. Half way through my meals I feel I'm satisfy, not full but I don't feel like i need to keep eating either. I always wonder if maybe I don't have a "i feel satisfy" hormone, because no matter how much I ate I always had that want to keep eating. I'm not saying go and do KETO, it is very strict but it has been working for me. But maybe increasing healthy fats might help overeating.3
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If you think you have a problem with overeating and you don't find a solution, go to Overeaters Anonymous meetings. Those people have solved the problem and they have personal success and an understanding of the problem.8
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Bad thing about OA is that it's about abstinence, food lists, "never", etc. I see a lot of value in the 12 Steps in general; they are a good common-sense way to live life but the never part and the food abstinence for life is just not a great strategy IMO. I'm not giving up sugary treats, flour, etc. Not happening. I tried the abstinence from added sugars thing and it's not a sustainable way for me to live. Plus it seems like people just live on dates, figs and dried fruits instead, which isn't really a solution. It's still sugar. OA has a whole list of abstinence foods. It works for some people, but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
Sorry, I know better than to take this down the "sugar" trail. It is page five though. I guess it's inevitable.
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This is a topic that a lot of people can relate to. I too have dealt with this throughout my life. I would like to share my opinions. I think by nature us humans are addicts. We can be addicted to anything. It can be as simple as having our morning coffee, sleeping in a certain position every night, or binge eating. I have tried to figure this binge eating out for myself and I think it comes down to one thing: Addiction ! You have to treat food as a drug. I looked up the definition of addiction and here is what I found:
There are four key parts to this definition of addiction:
1. Addiction includes both substances and activities (such as sex and gambling).
2. Addiction leads to substantial harm.
3. Addiction is repeated involvement despite substantial harm.
4. Addiction continues because it was, or is, pleasurable and/or valuable.
I am too trying to solve this issue for myself. I have dealt with weightloss/gains throughout my entire life. I think we must move away from the actual ritual of binge eating. Understand that this pattern of behavior is what leads us down a bad path. Maybe if we do this for enough days a new habit will form. Good Luck !!11 -
I find that I am less tempted to overeat when I am cutting back on calories than when I am in maintenance or over, thats when I am more likely to eat just for comfort, or to stop emotions and feelings of anxiety or stress.
Thanks for sharing this... it hit home to me and is a point to make note of.
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kommodevaran wrote: »
I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.kshama2001 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
ITA. I think this is the toughest thing we try to explain to newbies, and sometimes the real message gets lost in the hyperbole. It's not about cutting out all of the yummy foods, viewing them as the enemy. It's not about being able to eat nothing but twinkies if you hit your calories. It's about finding the balance. And the balance is hard to find when you are surrounded by food you don't NEED, but certainly want, and you're not weak for wanting them. And part of the balance is accepting that some days you will overeat. You just have to keep those to a minimum and limit your exposure to situations where it's likely. Perhaps for some, the balance is too painful to find, but IMHO muddling through to find it is really important, and probably a lifelong effort.
I do tend to eat the same things for meals with slight variations day to day and week to week. Less decisions - less temptations. My treat foods are foods I can't wait to eat, but through repetition I have gotten used to eating a reasonable portion, at a scheduled time. Then the occasional holiday, restaurant meal, hormonal splurge on a pint of ice cream is less dangerous. I still go off the rails on occasion, because I'm human and that's real life, but it helps. I think scheduled treats and indulgences generally make me feel more comfortable and secure, subconsciously.
Interestingly, I'm way more likely to stuff myself with "comfort foods" than I am treat foods. My mom's pasta and sausages, a roasted chicken, the saltines and butter I used to eat when I was sick as a child.
I think looking at it analytically like in this thread is super important - the more emotion you can take out of the equation, the better, though that is sometimes easier said than done! Taking the time to figure out the reasons we seem compelled to do things that ultimately aren't good for us and really understanding them. As another poster said - we're not nuts! This is like evolutionary growing pains. Hopefully we come out the other side with a different relationship with food more attuned to the swing from scarcity to abundance.13 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.kshama2001 wrote: »IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?
They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.
So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).
If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.
For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.
Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.
Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!
Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!
When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.
When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
ITA. I think this is the toughest thing we try to explain to newbies, and sometimes the real message gets lost in the hyperbole. It's not about cutting out all of the yummy foods, viewing them as the enemy. It's not about being able to eat nothing but twinkies if you hit your calories. It's about finding the balance. And the balance is hard to find when you are surrounded by food you don't NEED, but certainly want, and you're not weak for wanting them. And part of the balance is accepting that some days you will overeat. You just have to keep those to a minimum and limit your exposure to situations where it's likely. Perhaps for some, the balance is too painful to find, but IMHO muddling through to find it is really important, and probably a lifelong effort.
I do tend to eat the same things for meals with slight variations day to day and week to week. Less decisions - less temptations. My treat foods are foods I can't wait to eat, but through repetition I have gotten used to eating a reasonable portion, at a scheduled time. Then the occasional holiday, restaurant meal, hormonal splurge on a pint of ice cream is less dangerous. I still go off the rails on occasion, because I'm human and that's real life, but it helps. I think scheduled treats and indulgences generally make me feel more comfortable and secure, subconsciously.
Interestingly, I'm way more likely to stuff myself with "comfort foods" than I am treat foods. My mom's pasta and sausages, a roasted chicken, the saltines and butter I used to eat when I was sick as a child.
I think looking at it analytically like in this thread is super important - the more emotion you can take out of the equation, the better, though that is sometimes easier said than done! Taking the time to figure out the reasons we seem compelled to do things that ultimately aren't good for us and really understanding them. As another poster said - we're not nuts! This is like evolutionary growing pains. Hopefully we come out the other side with a different relationship with food more attuned to the swing from scarcity to abundance.
Thank you for posting this... there is some very valuable/important context and nuance here that I don't see spelled out very often.2 -
Well, I for one am a bit of a nut job honestly.8
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I haven't read the thread yet, but I wanted to offer my personal experience. I'm working on the understanding that the OP eats until feeling "stuffed," like you would when you unbutton your pants and sit back at Thanksgiving, not that this is a true binge where he eats until he vomits / feels sick or uncomfortable / literally can't eat any more.
As far as feeling stuffed is concerned, I associate it with several pleasant experiences. 1) Holidays such as Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Halloween, which were the only times I was allowed to eat that much as a child. 2) stealing cookies or other treats as a child which was the only other time I was able to eat as much as I wanted. 3) pigging out after getting paid as a young adult, when I had been on short rations for several days. Feeling stuffed equals feeling happy on a primitive level for me, because that's what it meant when it happened. My mother has been overweight her whole life, and despite me being an active and underweight youngster, I was never allowed to eat as much as I wanted as a child. So I learned to steal food, and I associated feeling stuffed with escaping from oppressive parental control. It's hard to break early associations.
What helps me now is that I can feel stuffed without going outside my calorie limit if I plan carefully. A bunch of vegetables and low calorie dense foods, followed by enough tasty/fattening/protein foods to trigger satiety, and I can "stuff" myself on 700 calories, especially now that I usually eat less than 500 at a sitting.16 -
Something I have noticed in myself is what I refer to as a need for "constant crisis" (a play on the name of the tea, "Constant Comment".)
I think because of the environment in which I was raised, some kind of crisis is what my brain considers the normal state of affairs. So, if there isn't an external crisis going on, I need to manufacture one. I can see this throughout my life across all aspects of it. I will (subconsciously) find some way to stir things up.
With my health/weight, this means that I have been eating healthy, having planned treats, being active, feeling good about myself and life, then, "whoops!" I mess it all up by binging. It doesn't even have to be anything specific I am craving. I have binge eaten things I wouldn't think twice about eating under other circumstances.
This is a very simplified explanation that came out of a lot of soul searching, and would seem contrary to my perfectionism and need for control, but they are really sides of the same learned behavior "die" for me.10 -
I don't have an answer to the question of why we overeat to discomfort. Speaking only for myself, I can say that in those rare times, it has everything to do with depression, emotional self-harm, diverting pain from one place to another. What I can do is give you a solution. Some practical behavioral tricks that will help you to change that.
Think of them as rules if that helps. If the idea of rules bothers you, think of them as simple changes in habits.- When you eat make a point of sitting down
- Drink a full glass of water before your meal
- Consciously, slowly chew eat bite... savor it, enjoy it, think about it
- Put your utensils down while you chew with your hands in your lap in between each bite
- Drink a sip of water between each bite
Try this out for even a few days and you will notice several things. The whole idea is that you are ENJOYING your food slowly. On a physical level, it gives your brain time to register that you are full. We usually eat so quickly that we fill ourselves before we even have time to let it sink it. On an emotional level, we are in the present. We are truly stopping to take the time to savor the food we took the time to prepare. For those who struggle with drinking enough water, this is a solution that helps to get that in.
The hardest part is setting aside the time to purposely eat in a relaxed, meaningful way. I admit that changing [habits] takes a lot of effort but I have found that I am full (truly full) eating about 2/3 of a portion when I eat this way. That equates to 1/3 less calories and I relax and truly enjoy my food rather than mindlessly eating to numbness or as a task on my to-do list. For myself, mindless eating is a slippery slope to emotional over-eating that I mentioned earlier.
Hope that helps. Thanks for posting this topic. It's an interesting discussion.5 -
The majority of these habits are developed in early childhood, so this feels "normal" later in life. At early adulthood your genetics begin to have greater influence as opposed to environment.
The habits you develop follow a pattern. Hormones also follow this pattern. Any shifts from this pattern end up in temporary chaos while your body attempts to restore order. As hormones are free cycling if you are overweight this further compounds the issue and tends toward chaos.
It is very much rooted in psychology, but we are biological, so everything is connected. Your chances of restoring order increase if you initiate positive changes on multiple root causes.
I agree...I have always eaten fast and I think it is because growing up you ate fast so you could have seconds, etc. before the food ran out so I continue this today. Plus eating fast I would typically eat way more than I should because time I start feeling full I have eaten way more than I should have....
Yep. Here too. I am a card-carrying member of the clean your plate club. I ate quickly as a kid in order to get second before the food was all gone. For as long as I can remember, I could always eat. It takes a lot of food to feel really, really full. I love feeling full, even to this day. Every now and again I will eat to fullness (sometimes it's uncomfortable). It's rare, but it happens and I definitely like the feel-good-feels that happens because of it.
Of all the things my weight loss has taught me, it's to get used to feeling hungry most of the time, because that's simply the reality for me.4 -
cmriverside wrote: »Bad thing about OA is that it's about abstinence, food lists, "never", etc. I see a lot of value in the 12 Steps in general; they are a good common-sense way to live life but the never part and the food abstinence for life is just not a great strategy IMO. I'm not giving up sugary treats, flour, etc. Not happening. I tried the abstinence from added sugars thing and it's not a sustainable way for me to live. Plus it seems like people just live on dates, figs and dried fruits instead, which isn't really a solution. It's still sugar. OA has a whole list of abstinence foods. It works for some people, but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
Sorry, I know better than to take this down the "sugar" trail. It is page five though. I guess it's inevitable.
Sorry as well, but OA isn't about food lists, its about taking the 12 steps of recovery.
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[/quote] Yep. Here too. I am a card-carrying member of the clean your plate club. I ate quickly as a kid in order to get second before the food was all gone. For as long as I can remember, I could always eat. It takes a lot of food to feel really, really full. I love feeling full, even to this day. Every now and again I will eat to fullness (sometimes it's uncomfortable). It's rare, but it happens and I definitely like the feel-good-feels that happens because of it.
Of all the things my weight loss has taught me, it's to get used to feeling hungry most of the time, because that's simply the reality for me. [/quote]
What is hard when you tell yourself to stop eating and still feel like you can eat way more...that is hard to get used to. But I figure I am a work in progress and IF has taught me some semblance of control, I am not 100% perfect but way better than pre IF. I also have learned that being hungry is okay, I will not die from starvation.
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The discomfort I have over the feeling of a bloated stomach (and I mean emotional discomfort) usually wins out against the comfort of fullness. I wonder if I have a problem on the other end of the spectrum...I hate that day-after-Thanksgiving morning when you wake up and your stomach is sticking out like you've already eaten for the day. Not sure if this is "good"--because I don't overeat--or "bad"--because maybe it's just as disordered but for the reverse reasons.2
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What is hard when you tell yourself to stop eating and still feel like you can eat way more...that is hard to get used to. But I figure I am a work in progress and IF has taught me some semblance of control, I am not 100% perfect but way better than pre IF. I also have learned that being hungry is okay, I will not die from starvation.
I tried IF, but I wake up too hungry and my attempts at keeping the hunger at bay just gives me headaches and a caffeine/coffee tummy. Hubby will eat a small-ish breakfast (250 calories) and then he can go all the way to dinner without eating anything. Nope. Not me. Too hangry.
I still clean my plate and meal plan, so that I get to eat all of whatever it is I've planned for the day. I have to eat ALL the food. Knowing that about myself made the process so much easier.
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This is me, I joke that if I'm not in pain and hating myself a little, how will I know to stop eating?
On an episode of the West Wing, one of the characters is an alcoholic and he's describing what it's like, and he says he never understood how people could have just one drink - like, you have that drink and you get that feeling, and how can you not want to feel like that forever? And so you chase it. That's what it's like for me, with deciding how much to eat, pretty much all the time.11 -
I did IF for a year or so. It started slowly in fall 2016, when I more and more often couldn't eat my fourth meal until close to midnight - I realized I didn't need it anymore, so on to three meals per day, and playing around with meal times saw me eating according to 16:8 or even 18:6. This was a strange experience. I had internalized the "wisdom" of "keeping my metabolism burning" with small frequent meals, and I would often feel irritated and unfocused and weak if I had to wait for a meal. I was dreaming of inventing a remote control thing that could turn on the stove so it was hot and ready when I got home. And that takes like 10-20 minutes!Yep. Here too. I am a card-carrying member of the clean your plate club. I ate quickly as a kid in order to get second before the food was all gone. For as long as I can remember, I could always eat. It takes a lot of food to feel really, really full. I love feeling full, even to this day. Every now and again I will eat to fullness (sometimes it's uncomfortable). It's rare, but it happens and I definitely like the feel-good-feels that happens because of it.
Of all the things my weight loss has taught me, it's to get used to feeling hungry most of the time, because that's simply the reality for me.
What is hard when you tell yourself to stop eating and still feel like you can eat way more...that is hard to get used to. But I figure I am a work in progress and IF has taught me some semblance of control, I am not 100% perfect but way better than pre IF. I also have learned that being hungry is okay, I will not die from starvation.
One year earlier I had read Allen Carr's "Easyweigh to lose weight", where he speaks warmly of the joys of postponing meals. I had felt it myself, but not connected the dots. And for quite some time, I was very strict with my "feeding window"; now it feels bizarre, because it taught me I could indeed wait for a meal, and that eating regularly is what I'm after, and that does not mean "this or that at exact times", but "varied meals, every day".
And it makes me wonder what other bizarre behavior I'm exhibiting, but not yet aware of.5 -
cmriverside wrote: »Bad thing about OA is that it's about abstinence, food lists, "never", etc. I see a lot of value in the 12 Steps in general; they are a good common-sense way to live life but the never part and the food abstinence for life is just not a great strategy IMO. I'm not giving up sugary treats, flour, etc. Not happening. I tried the abstinence from added sugars thing and it's not a sustainable way for me to live. Plus it seems like people just live on dates, figs and dried fruits instead, which isn't really a solution. It's still sugar. OA has a whole list of abstinence foods. It works for some people, but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
Sorry, I know better than to take this down the "sugar" trail. It is page five though. I guess it's inevitable.
Sorry as well, but OA isn't about food lists, its about taking the 12 steps of recovery.
"A Plan of Eating
A Plan of Eating is a tool to help the OA member maintain abstinence.
RelapsePrevention_Tools_Plan_Women
“As a tool, a plan of eating helps us abstain from compulsive eating, guides us in our dietary decisions, and defines what, when, how, where and why we eat.There are no specific requirements for a plan of eating; OA does not endorse or recommend any specific plan of eating, nor does it exclude the personal use of one. (See the pamphlets Dignity of Choice and A Plan of Eating for more information.) For specific dietary or nutritional guidance, OA suggests consulting a qualified health care professional, such as a physician or dietitian. Each of us develops a personal plan of eating based on an honest appraisal of his or her past experience. Many of us find it essential to take guidance from our sponsors to develop a plan of eating that reflects an honest desire to achieve and maintain abstinence."
https://oa.org/members/relapse-prevention/tools-of-recovery/a-plan-of-eating/
So...where was I wrong in my post? I'm willing to learn, but there is an element of restriction/abstinence and this is directly from the OA site...As a tool, a plan of eating helps us abstain from compulsive eating, guides us in our dietary decisions, and defines what, when, how, where and why we eat.
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