Of refeeds and diet breaks
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for those studies key word is weight loss efficiency - so for equal time at a deficit lost slightly more weight.
But for overall time it took 2 x as long for them to hit the same deficit time.
So it and similar do seem to prove what could potentially happen - it doesn't mean it's the best method. Might be too extreme on safe side.
Some studies also show that a reasonable rate of loss (0.75% of BW) compared to more extreme rate (1.5%) leads to better fat only loss, or LBM retained, or some other benefit.
Obviously there's a mediam there too, and what your body can handle before the stress and adaptations kick in is personal.
It's a good place to start, on the safer side of these things, but some other studies show that perhaps the safer side was too safe, and in the range between you could move on over a bit.
Lyle's recommendations seem to do that, still safer than extreme.3 -
Some studies also show that a reasonable rate of loss (0.75% of BW) compared to more extreme rate (1.5%) leads to better fat only loss, or LBM retained, or some other benefit.
I don't doubt this is backed up by research somewhere but I have never been able to find the citations. Everything I've read (from organizations such as the CDC/NIH/NHS) speaks in terms of 1% BW/week or 1-2 pounds/week as being a safe amount to lose.
But people on MFP are constantly saying not to lose more than a half-pound per week if one is in the "normal" BMI range.
Where is the data to back this up? Just curious. Also, I have been losing just a little over a pound per week for a while now and feel good about it. I have about 10-15 more to go.
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www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571
was actually .7 and 1.4 upon review.
And that's what I mean by a middle of the road of 1% too.
But obviously that's not a blanket recommendation too - what if you only have 10 lbs left - losing 1.5 weekly really a good idea? No.
Rate is really dependent upon how much left to lose - otherwise more stressful to body and more adaptation will take place.
Where that line is depends a the person - but better to be on safe side, because once you've gone over it, more wasted time to recover.2 -
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571
was actually .7 and 1.4 upon review.
And that's what I mean by a middle of the road of 1% too.
But obviously that's not a blanket recommendation too - what if you only have 10 lbs left - losing 1.5 weekly really a good idea? No.
Thanks so much. I really appreciate data like this. Just for the fun of it, I analyzed my last 6 weeks of weight loss data and it looks like I've been losing at a rate of about 0.77%*BW per week. There is some fluctuation from week to week but that has been the average.
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Some studies also show that a reasonable rate of loss (0.75% of BW) compared to more extreme rate (1.5%) leads to better fat only loss, or LBM retained, or some other benefit.
I don't doubt this is backed up by research somewhere but I have never been able to find the citations. Everything I've read (from organizations such as the CDC/NIH/NHS) speaks in terms of 1% BW/week or 1-2 pounds/week as being a safe amount to lose.
But people on MFP are constantly saying not to lose more than a half-pound per week if one is in the "normal" BMI range.
Where is the data to back this up? Just curious. Also, I have been losing just a little over a pound per week for a while now and feel good about it. I have about 10-15 more to go.
I’m not sure there’s hard/formal data, but from folks posting their stats here on the forums, it seems a lot of them would have to drop down to an unhealthy number of calories (maintained for weeks/months), either 1200 for women or 1500 for men, to achieve a deficit of more than .5 pounds per week.4 -
I'm late to this discussion but want to share what's going on with me since I think it's somewhat related to this discussion.
After 6 months of diligently practicing IF programmed for a calories deficit for a 1.5 lb. per week weight loss, I lost 35 lbs. sticking to my plan 100% and achieving my goal weight. Then, on March 6th for Lent 2019, I started abstaining from meat and extending my fasting period to 22 hours a day, eating only in the evening once the sun set. But, since I didn't need to lose more weight, I upped my calories to maintenance, on average, and decreased my workouts. In both cases, my eating is carb-centric, higher fat and lower protein. Today, which is day 25 of my Lent 2019 OMAD practice, my morning BW is 173.4 or 3.4 lbs. less than my March 6th BW when beginning OMAD.
What's going on?
I've heard the terms "reverse dieting" and "refeeding" here and honestly have never read details about them. Is this what I"m doing and is my unplanned additional weight loss the result?3 -
pierinifitness wrote: »I'm late to this discussion but want to share what's going on with me since I think it's somewhat related to this discussion.
After 6 months of diligently practicing IF programmed for a calories deficit for a 1.5 lb. per week weight loss, I lost 35 lbs. sticking to my plan 100% and achieving my goal weight. Then, on March 6th for Lent 2019, I started abstaining from meat and extending my fasting period to 22 hours a day, eating only in the evening once the sun set. But, since I didn't need to lose more weight, I upped my calories to maintenance, on average, and decreased my workouts. In both cases, my eating is carb-centric, higher fat and lower protein. Today, which is day 25 of my Lent 2019 OMAD practice, my morning BW is 173.4 or 3.4 lbs. less than my March 6th BW when beginning OMAD.
What's going on?
I've heard the terms "reverse dieting" and "refeeding" here and honestly have never read details about them. Is this what I"m doing and is my unplanned additional weight loss the result?
The simplest explanation is that you are under-shooting maintenance. Possibly going on is that with less deficit and exercise, there is less stress-related cortisol and less exercise-induced inflammation, both of which can lead to more fluid retention. If you level off, then I would lead toward the second. If you continue to drop weight, then eat more.4 -
pierinifitness wrote: »I'm late to this discussion but want to share what's going on with me since I think it's somewhat related to this discussion.
After 6 months of diligently practicing IF programmed for a calories deficit for a 1.5 lb. per week weight loss, I lost 35 lbs. sticking to my plan 100% and achieving my goal weight. Then, on March 6th for Lent 2019, I started abstaining from meat and extending my fasting period to 22 hours a day, eating only in the evening once the sun set. But, since I didn't need to lose more weight, I upped my calories to maintenance, on average, and decreased my workouts. In both cases, my eating is carb-centric, higher fat and lower protein. Today, which is day 25 of my Lent 2019 OMAD practice, my morning BW is 173.4 or 3.4 lbs. less than my March 6th BW when beginning OMAD.
What's going on?
I've heard the terms "reverse dieting" and "refeeding" here and honestly have never read details about them. Is this what I"m doing and is my unplanned additional weight loss the result?
A few possibilities could be happening. Due to your OMAD eating schedule, unless you are weighing and measuring accurately, you may be eating less than you think causing weight loss. You also said you decreased exercise so that can cause a loss of water weight (I lose about 3lbs if I decrease my workout volume just to give you an idea), also a change in macros can cause changes in food volume and water weight, also, depending on what time you are eating and weighing yourself you could be experiencing a difference in how much food is in your system. So for example if I kept calories the same but ate my last meal at 4pm and weighed the next morning, vs if I finished eating at 11pm and weighed in the morning, my weights would show a difference due to food and sodium in my system. Another possibility, if you are truly eating at maintenance and don't think it is any other factors there is also the possibility your NEAT has gone up due to having more energy. I find if I increase my calories from a deficit to maintenance (or what I think is maintenance) I will continue to lose weight because my energy is up, I move more and my workouts are more productive. So that is a possibility as well. There could be others but those are my first thoughts.6 -
I have not used a food scale at all during my current journey so obviously portion accuracy could be a contributing factor but I can't imagine there's any change in any accuracy before and after because, as you know, you get pretty good at it or at least I have with the proof being that I achieved a weekly weight loss that aligned with my goal.
As far as eating goes, my OMAD feeding window begins once the sun sets and ends 2 hours or less thereafter. Yesterday, for example, I started eating at 7:27 pm and finished at 8:56 pm, a little shorter than normal. I weighed myself at 4:55 am this early morning. Prior to OMAD, my IF feeding window obviously began earlier but also ended earlier. Now, I'm basically going to bed full.
I think a more obvious explanation might be the changes from workouts and cortisol-related. I'm working hard now due to seasonal workload but it's all sitting, so maybe that's a consideration, sedentary work-related stress. Time will tell as I continue marching forward during my Lent 2019 OMAD journey. Thanks to everyone who replied.1 -
I have a hard time accepting that the on and off group actually lost more weight overall. That would mean that our metabolism adaptation is more than half of whatever the deficit of the always on group. The other thing is that obesity supposedly protects you from some of that adaptation and the study was on obese men.
There's definitely need for more studies on this! Most existing studies that come close to this subject are either trying see the effects of "yo-yo" dieting or are really about intermittent fasting rather than diet vs diet break. My layman's hypothesis is that diet breaks are so helpful because of their effects on leptin and ghrelin as well as how diet breaks help you psychologically stick to a deficit once your break is done. There also is evidence that your body does metabolically downregulate in a deficit and upregulate in a surplus, but never to the effect of negating CICO, just enough to make results a bit difficult to predict.
Just before my diet break I was definitely NOT losing as expected (after dieting for 8 months with no break), but looking at my diary I definitely wasn't sticking to protocol. I see a bunch of days where dinner just wasn't logged...while this study was supposed to eliminate those who didn't stick to protocol, how many of the full diet group were lying when asked about adherence? Should failure to adhere be seen as evidence for or against either method?1 -
Hi, I’m so glad I found this thread I hope some one can reply to me.
I’ve just watched the video and am delighted he talks about small females quite a lot which has given me a lot of info on this!
I a 119lb, 5ft female with 25% body fat (roughly as I only measured myself & used an online calculator I really want to find out 100% which I will soon!) I have been on less then 1500 calories since January but from end of February to now I’ve been on very strict 1300 calories - 130g AT LEAST protein a day.
I’m getting down becuase this is not enough food for me, I’m active as in I get at least 20,000 steps every day, have 1 hour upper body strength training & 1 hour lower body strength with a PT plus 1-2 hour circuit sessions a week.
I’m not sure what my maintenance calories are as I’ve always been in deficit which I’ve put the numbers into MFP myself according to my PT.
I’ve literally lost 6lbs in this time. I feel and look much leaner have slight muscle definition now but my tummy is sooo flabby & still fat (even though I’m small I can look 9 months pregnant!) I just don’t feel like I’m getting anywhere so I’m hoping 2 refeed days may help at maintence.
I think it’s only another 300 cals (1600) at my maintence so really that’s just one small meal each of those days I can’t really get too excited about it?!
My question is, it needs to be 2 consecutive days - should I refeed on my strength days Thursday & Friday? & should I try to eat the carbs early before my workouts which are always at 9.30am - might it make a difference for me? I don’t feel like I can approach my PT about this as he’s happy with the slow loss. Weekends come and I find myself desperate for the new week to start becuase my routine is so set that I work out fasted to save calories & eat at 11/12 every day. Weekends I’m home relaxing and all I want to do is eat - I thought I was healthy & happy but I’m quickly realising I’m becoming totally obsessed with food, calories & routine. On top of that my tummy has lost NOTHING! Help me! TIA!0 -
emmajunesmith19 wrote: »Snip
You said you lost 6 lbs, but your wording wasn't clear on whether that was since January or the end of February when you dropped your calories lower. If you mean since the beginning of the year, that's a little less than .5 lb a week, which is a good rate of loss for someone already at a normal BMI. Our stats aren't very similar so it is hard to give that much advice, but the practical side of me thinks that you can probably do your refeed on the weekend, since that is when you find yourself wanting to eat more. If my understanding of the science is correct, your body will need some time to take the carbs from your refeed and replenish the glycogen stores in your muscles. Refeeding just before a workout might give you energy without you benefiting from more glycogen in your muscles.1 -
gogetemrogue wrote: »emmajunesmith19 wrote: »Snip
You said you lost 6 lbs, but your wording wasn't clear on whether that was since January or the end of February when you dropped your calories lower. If you mean since the beginning of the year, that's a little less than .5 lb a week, which is a good rate of loss for someone already at a normal BMI. Our stats aren't very similar so it is hard to give that much advice, but the practical side of me thinks that you can probably do your refeed on the weekend, since that is when you find yourself wanting to eat more. If my understanding of the science is correct, your body will need some time to take the carbs from your refeed and replenish the glycogen stores in your muscles. Refeeding just before a workout might give you energy without you benefiting from more glycogen in your muscles.
Thank you for replying.
Yes since the beginning of feb I have been on a strict 1300, from 1st Jan till then it was never above 1500 (apart from a couple of times but still under maintenance)
I’ve been looking around on google now at refeed days and it mainly says refeed says are for people under 25% body fat & people who are already lean trying to get leaner but not lose muscle. I’m 25% body fat, not under. So I wonder whether 2 refeed days will be to much. I think I’m going to try this coming week, and I have decided to do them Tuesday and Wednesday I’m hoping the higher carbs will carry through to Thursday and Fridays training sessions.
I guess it’s all about working out yourself what is best. Trial and error. There’s so much confliction it’s difficult to know what to do for the best!0 -
emmajunesmith19 wrote: »Thank you for replying.
Yes since the beginning of feb I have been on a strict 1300, from 1st Jan till then it was never above 1500 (apart from a couple of times but still under maintenance)
I’ve been looking around on google now at refeed days and it mainly says refeed says are for people under 25% body fat & people who are already lean trying to get leaner but not lose muscle. I’m 25% body fat, not under. So I wonder whether 2 refeed days will be to much. I think I’m going to try this coming week, and I have decided to do them Tuesday and Wednesday I’m hoping the higher carbs will carry through to Thursday and Fridays training sessions.
I guess it’s all about working out yourself what is best. Trial and error. There’s so much confliction it’s difficult to know what to do for the best!
A two day refeed at maintenance will only truly delay progress by two days (actual scale results may vary, but you know what I mean). At the same time, if your training has suffered from that glycogen low feeling, you know where you feel like your muscles aren't able to do the movements as well as they should be or take as much weight as your previous sessions, then a refeed is probably a good idea to ensure you don't get injured at the very least.
Honestly it seems like you are doing a lot of things right, especially since you are training regularly. I hope your PT appreciates how hard you work and understands that since you are so small that scale progress might be slower than their other clients, but that doesn't mean you aren't progressing. I think that where you are right now, progress pics should be taken often so you can see if you body is recomping at the same time as losing fat slowly.1 -
gogetemrogue wrote: »I have a hard time accepting that the on and off group actually lost more weight overall. That would mean that our metabolism adaptation is more than half of whatever the deficit of the always on group. The other thing is that obesity supposedly protects you from some of that adaptation and the study was on obese men.
There's definitely need for more studies on this! Most existing studies that come close to this subject are either trying see the effects of "yo-yo" dieting or are really about intermittent fasting rather than diet vs diet break. My layman's hypothesis is that diet breaks are so helpful because of their effects on leptin and ghrelin as well as how diet breaks help you psychologically stick to a deficit once your break is done. There also is evidence that your body does metabolically downregulate in a deficit and upregulate in a surplus, but never to the effect of negating CICO, just enough to make results a bit difficult to predict.
Just before my diet break I was definitely NOT losing as expected (after dieting for 8 months with no break), but looking at my diary I definitely wasn't sticking to protocol. I see a bunch of days where dinner just wasn't logged...while this study was supposed to eliminate those who didn't stick to protocol, how many of the full diet group were lying when asked about adherence? Should failure to adhere be seen as evidence for or against either method?
As I mentioned here: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43512223/#Comment_43512223
I am slightly more disgruntled when I don't stick to my 6 day deficit/1 day maintenance system. For me "slightly disgruntled" means unscheduled trips to the kitchen and a calorie creep of 100 to 200 calories per day over normal. I am not physically hungry so I can keep it contained but I am dissatisfied. According to L.McD. a single day break doesn't have much of a benefit physically but I will attest to a mental benefit... at least for me.
I still have quite a bit of weight to lose so I am sticking to a 10 day diet break about every 6 months until I drop to 1 pound per week. I think then I will shoot for every 4 months but I will decide that when I get closer.
I do think the break helps me mentally and probably is a good insurance policy for the physical side of things even if I don't absolutely need it. I use my breaks to try and relax more. I like my normal routine but it is nice to allow the "fun foods" to occupy a higher percentage of my day for a short period. I did 10 days at Thanksgiving but I was really kind of tired of it by the 7th day and ready to get back to normal. It really reinforced that my normal day-to-day was sustainable. It might also suggest that I need the mental break a little less since I do it once a week anyway...3 -
gogetemrogue wrote: »I have a hard time accepting that the on and off group actually lost more weight overall. That would mean that our metabolism adaptation is more than half of whatever the deficit of the always on group. The other thing is that obesity supposedly protects you from some of that adaptation and the study was on obese men.
There's definitely need for more studies on this! Most existing studies that come close to this subject are either trying see the effects of "yo-yo" dieting or are really about intermittent fasting rather than diet vs diet break. My layman's hypothesis is that diet breaks are so helpful because of their effects on leptin and ghrelin as well as how diet breaks help you psychologically stick to a deficit once your break is done. There also is evidence that your body does metabolically downregulate in a deficit and upregulate in a surplus, but never to the effect of negating CICO, just enough to make results a bit difficult to predict.
Just before my diet break I was definitely NOT losing as expected (after dieting for 8 months with no break), but looking at my diary I definitely wasn't sticking to protocol. I see a bunch of days where dinner just wasn't logged...while this study was supposed to eliminate those who didn't stick to protocol, how many of the full diet group were lying when asked about adherence? Should failure to adhere be seen as evidence for or against either method?
As I mentioned here: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43512223/#Comment_43512223
I am slightly more disgruntled when I don't stick to my 6 day deficit/1 day maintenance system. For me "slightly disgruntled" means unscheduled trips to the kitchen and a calorie creep of 100 to 200 calories per day over normal. I am not physically hungry so I can keep it contained but I am dissatisfied. According to L.McD. a single day break doesn't have much of a benefit physically but I will attest to a mental benefit... at least for me.
I still have quite a bit of weight to lose so I am sticking to a 10 day diet break about every 6 months until I drop to 1 pound per week. I think then I will shoot for every 4 months but I will decide that when I get closer.
I do think the break helps me mentally and probably is a good insurance policy for the physical side of things even if I don't absolutely need it. I use my breaks to try and relax more. I like my normal routine but it is nice to allow the "fun foods" to occupy a higher percentage of my day for a short period. I did 10 days at Thanksgiving but I was really kind of tired of it by the 7th day and ready to get back to normal. It really reinforced that my normal day-to-day was sustainable. It might also suggest that I need the mental break a little less since I do it once a week anyway...
I'm skimming through this thread, so if it's been said prior, please refresh my memory.. are you overfat enough to be rigidly adhering to a 6 day deficit/1 day maintenance period for months? The underlying foundation for this thread has always been that if you are closer to your goal, or have achieved a state of leanness that requires more frequent diet breaks, then provoking a long term deficit becomes counterintuitive.
Yes, you can white knuckle the deficit for as long as possible, but it doesn't do much more than overstep the boundary between discipline and an unhealthy relationship with food. If at any point the diet becomes too stressful, leading to unscheduled kitchen trips, thoughts of grazing or binges, or just plain makes you question the existence of pigeons, then take a diet break, even if it's earlier than planned.
Even if you were in a state of overfatness that could sustain a longer deficit duration, it doesn't always mean you should if adherence becomes an issue.
Either way, diet breaks are typically 14 days of new lower weight maintenance calories between rounds, and if it needs to be longer, then so be it. The goal is to achieve maintenance for life. Lyle understands people aren't perfect and that being restrictive doesn't always mean militant rigidity. As long as you get the concept of running an average deficit over a period of time to lose fat, prioritizing protein to reduce/retain lbm (given no health issues to consume around .7-1.2g of protein/lb/lbm), and doing some form of physical activity (with proper programming) to gain/keep lbm, strength, and bone health, then you are good enough to continue doing it for as long as you're able.
*After a while, you do it for so long that you just answer MFP threads because you haven't practiced your knowledge and need something to do to make sure you still understand the nuance of basic physiology and the existence of pigeons.7 -
I have a question. I took a week off my calorie restriction because of appendicitis and resulting appendectomy. I had been adhering pretty closely to my plan before but weight had been very slow in coming off. I decided after surgery to not count for the week (I know this isn’t a true diet break—I wasn’t counting calories and trying to eat at maintenance). I started back again on Monday of this week with the calorie restriction, and my weight has been dropping! I am now today lower than I have been in over a year. Did my week off restricting calories somehow affect my weight loss?
I should note that I don’t think taking a week off to eat whatever I feel like is a great plan. I was just focused on healing and resting and decided not to count that week. In the future though, I am wondering if I could see similar positive results of losing when I restart calories restriction after taking a proper diet break (eating at maintenance level).0 -
Christismylife wrote: »I have a question. I took a week off my calorie restriction because of appendicitis and resulting appendectomy. I had been adhering pretty closely to my plan before but weight had been very slow in coming off. I decided after surgery to not count for the week (I know this isn’t a true diet break—I wasn’t counting calories and trying to eat at maintenance). I started back again on Monday of this week with the calorie restriction, and my weight has been dropping! I am now today lower than I have been in over a year. Did my week off restricting calories somehow affect my weight loss?
It can but not that dramatically. You can't lose fat weight fast enough to have accomplished much in 3 days. It is more likely that you were due for a whoosh and this was always going to happen. It could also be that you might have been keeping yourself a little stressed about your weight and the change in attitude dropped your cortisol and your water weight.
This all assumes you are not currently dehydrated.4 -
Christismylife wrote: »I have a question. I took a week off my calorie restriction because of appendicitis and resulting appendectomy. I had been adhering pretty closely to my plan before but weight had been very slow in coming off. I decided after surgery to not count for the week (I know this isn’t a true diet break—I wasn’t counting calories and trying to eat at maintenance). I started back again on Monday of this week with the calorie restriction, and my weight has been dropping! I am now today lower than I have been in over a year. Did my week off restricting calories somehow affect my weight loss?
I should note that I don’t think taking a week off to eat whatever I feel like is a great plan. I was just focused on healing and resting and decided not to count that week. In the future though, I am wondering if I could see similar positive results of losing when I restart calories restriction after taking a proper diet break (eating at maintenance level).
Were you working out before? I would assume you stopped workouts to heal. That could be a factor, you could have lost some water weight as a result.3 -
Christismylife wrote: »I have a question. I took a week off my calorie restriction because of appendicitis and resulting appendectomy. I had been adhering pretty closely to my plan before but weight had been very slow in coming off. I decided after surgery to not count for the week (I know this isn’t a true diet break—I wasn’t counting calories and trying to eat at maintenance). I started back again on Monday of this week with the calorie restriction, and my weight has been dropping! I am now today lower than I have been in over a year. Did my week off restricting calories somehow affect my weight loss?
I should note that I don’t think taking a week off to eat whatever I feel like is a great plan. I was just focused on healing and resting and decided not to count that week. In the future though, I am wondering if I could see similar positive results of losing when I restart calories restriction after taking a proper diet break (eating at maintenance level).
a quick google yielded that the average appendix weighs 5-6 oz... so there's that.7
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