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Keto diet= good or bad
Replies
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Human beings managed to colonize every ecosystem from the arctic to the rainforest.
There is no way we could have done that if there was One Perfect Diet. We're enormously adaptable omnivores, and no, we did not spend 500,000 years in ketosis.
(As evidence: We didn't domesticate grains out of some weird idea that we'd like to start eating grains. We domesticated grains because we were already eating them in amounts big enough that we invented flint-bladed scythes to cut grain stalks before we domesticated the grain itself)
Along these lines, I thought this piece by Yoni Freedhoff on the recent debate between Stephan Guyenet and Gary Taubes was really good: http://www.weightymatters.ca/
A few excerpts:As far as diets go, I'm egalitarian. I believe that the best diet for you may be the worst diet for someone else, and that all diets work by way of reducing caloric intake, but that calories from different foods will have differing impacts upon health and satiety....
Suffice to say, as many already have, it seemed that Gary the journalist relied on stories to make his points, while Stephan the scientist relied on studies. Gary constantly interrupted Stephan, and somehow also managed to recurrently mispronounce his name (despite corrections), and Stephan, perhaps as a consequence, at times treated Gary dismissively....
Self identified "science journalists" (note, this isn't actually a dig at Gary but rather others) who purport to care about evidence embrace and amplify the most idiotic of theories, stories, or comments so long as they suit their narratives. And if a study contradicts any of the aforementioned folks' belief systems, the fault is said to no doubt lie with the methodology, or the researcher being conflicted (as Gary repeatedly suggested in the debate when discussing the work of his former NuSi hire Kevin Hall, as well as Jim Hill and colleagues' metabolic ward study that utilized direct calorimetry to show that people gained equal amounts of weight when overfed fat or carbs), or both. And of course pretty much all of the most vocal gurus, even the ones from prestigious institutions like Harvard, appear more than happy to extend their credibilities to prop up whatever medical quack (Mercola, Oz, Hyman, etc.) is willing to promote them.... it would seem to me that the bulk of the energy spent by the loudest of the LCHF/#Keto crowd is mustered trying to prove everyone else is wrong or conflicted, and that there is only one, true, right, best, diet - a message that's especially off putting when it comes from MDs, given every single day physicians are reminded that different treatments work differently for different people - sometimes predictably, and sometimes not so much - which is why for instance for hypertension there are at least 10 different classes of medications, and multiple options within each.
And I know this wasn't the point of the debate - it was a debate after all - but wouldn't it be grand if instead of the constant need of so many (and yes, there are definitely exceptions - see note at end) to promote LCHF/#Keto as the one right, best, only, diet, LCHF/#Keto proponents, especially those who are themselves researchers and health professionals, took a deep breath and realized that if tragic *kitten* is indeed going on, that perseverating on motives rather than data, and fanning the flames of online outrage mobs, and propping up of quacks like Mercola and Hyman, and promoting the worst examples of science and opinion so long as it suits their narratives, and fear-mongering around statins, and spreading the bizarre notion that there's only one right diet and that anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong and likely conflicted, while I suppose providing fodder for online debates, is indefensible, unhelpful, and a very real reason why there's far less embrace and research of a strategy that absolutely has a place in the treatment and prevention of diet and weight related diseases.15 -
Human beings managed to colonize every ecosystem from the arctic to the rainforest.
There is no way we could have done that if there was One Perfect Diet. We're enormously adaptable omnivores, and no, we did not spend 500,000 years in ketosis.
(As evidence: We didn't domesticate grains out of some weird idea that we'd like to start eating grains. We domesticated grains because we were already eating them in amounts big enough that we invented flint-bladed scythes to cut grain stalks before we domesticated the grain itself)
Along these lines, I thought this piece by Yoni Freedhoff on the recent debate between Stephan Guyenet and Gary Taubes was really good: http://www.weightymatters.ca/
I don't want anyone to blindly follow what I have done thinking they can replicate my current results. I am still not done yet so all I really know is that I am doing what is right for myself at this moment.
All weight loss attempts have a ridiculously high failure rate. Some of the very people who think keto is so great in this thread will, unfortunately, fail to sustain their weight loss and in time will either return and try again or move on. I HATE that. I think it is very wrong to defend any weight loss method and try to say it is the best because it might be currently working for you. We should try and get each other to question ourselves and our choices because that is being helpful. I have failed so much that I have stopped caring about being 'right' I just want to see results.
The number of other people doing keto or whatever you are doing doesn't help you lose weight. It doesn't do anything to reinforce that you have made the right decision either. All the studies out that seem to suggest that one method is better than another are WORTHLESS when it comes to personal weight loss.
Is keto good or bad? The only people that can answer that it is good are the people that have successfully met ALL of their goals and maintained them for several years and then it only means it was good for them. Everyone else is either hoping it is good or doing something else. The very same thing applies to calorie counting, weight watchers, paleo, etc.
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Human beings managed to colonize every ecosystem from the arctic to the rainforest.
There is no way we could have done that if there was One Perfect Diet. We're enormously adaptable omnivores, and no, we did not spend 500,000 years in ketosis.
(As evidence: We didn't domesticate grains out of some weird idea that we'd like to start eating grains. We domesticated grains because we were already eating them in amounts big enough that we invented flint-bladed scythes to cut grain stalks before we domesticated the grain itself)
Along these lines, I thought this piece by Yoni Freedhoff on the recent debate between Stephan Guyenet and Gary Taubes was really good: http://www.weightymatters.ca/
I don't want anyone to blindly follow what I have done thinking they can replicate my current results. I am still not done yet so all I really know is that I am doing what is right for myself at this moment.
All weight loss attempts have a ridiculously high failure rate. Some of the very people who think keto is so great in this thread will, unfortunately, fail to sustain their weight loss and in time will either return and try again or move on. I HATE that. I think it is very wrong to defend any weight loss method and try to say it is the best because it might be currently working for you. We should try and get each other to question ourselves and our choices because that is being helpful. I have failed so much that I have stopped caring about being 'right' I just want to see results.
The number of other people doing keto or whatever you are doing doesn't help you lose weight. It doesn't do anything to reinforce that you have made the right decision either. All the studies out that seem to suggest that one method is better than another are WORTHLESS when it comes to personal weight loss.
Is keto good or bad? The only people that can answer that it is good are the people that have successfully met ALL of their goals and maintained them for several years and then it only means it was good for them. Everyone else is either hoping it is good or doing something else. The very same thing applies to calorie counting, weight watchers, paleo, etc.
I agree with this so much. All that we can do is stick with what is working for the time being and if it stops working try something different. I think the key is to keep trying. I run like the "kitten" when I hear people say that their way is the one and only true path.
However, when I read someone refer to themselves as "ketoers" I kind of cringe!
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If I have eaten keto for a few years, then I can call myself a ketoer? It's a lot faster to type than "someone who follows a ketogenic diet ".
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I'm following a diet that is part Keto and part Medditerian. I recently attended a conference where a Dietitian spoke, she explained that when you give up healthy foods you are also giving up nutrients that your body needs. So by following a combination of Keto and Medditerian you are getting the vitamins and nutrients that your body needs. And you can still lose weight... I've been doing this since the first of January, 2019 and I've lost 32 pounds so far. You just need determination to stick with it.6
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If I have eaten keto for a few years, then I can call myself a ketoer? It's a lot faster to type than "someone who follows a ketogenic diet ".
Umm... considering keto is in your username and your posts are seldom about anything else I am not sure that your diet allegiance is ever in question.21 -
If I have eaten keto for a few years, then I can call myself a ketoer? It's a lot faster to type than "someone who follows a ketogenic diet ".
Umm... considering keto is in your username and your posts are seldom about anything else I am not sure that your diet allegiance is ever in question.
Diet allegiance was not called into question.
I generally dont post in threads that are not about woes that I am not using or dislike. I feel I would not have much to offer that could help people.
My areas of success are health improvements and easy weight loss with keto.
I tried WW and failed. I tried moderation, repeatedly) and failed. I ate low fat for years and failed... and by failed I mean I struggled with weight, gained, and my health declined. No point posting in those threads, imo, except possibly in the debate forum.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason.
I agree that one can eat a no, or essentially no carb diet and not die. I don't personally believe that is healthy because I don't agree that it would be a healthy choice to cut out vegetables, and most would not eat the variety of organ meats necessary for adequate nutrition (which doesn't mean they'd die as a result, but I think has longer term effects). However, I also believe this is rather irrelevant, as most who do keto eat some carbs (ideally vegetables), and one can get adequate veg doing keto -- I just found it more stressful than necessary and did not like that I was cutting out a variety of healthy foods I normally eat, having to cut back on veg (I eat a lot of servings of non starchy veg normally, and not just leafy ones), and more meat than I prefer.Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
I don't believe this claim is grounded in anything credible, and it's inconsistent with the evidence about traditional human diets, blue zones, and the fact that those few cultures who were necessarily eating very low carbs regularly have a genetic modification that means they are NOT in ketosis when most of us would be.
But it might be the easiest way for you to eat in a healthful, calorie-appropriate manner, so carry on.
You're right. It is irrelevant. Check out Paul Saladino.
You shouldn't have had to cut out many veggies other than starches. And, there are vegan ketoers so too much meat for you shouldn't have been an issue either.
Finding it frustrating and giving up is an emotional response as stated before.
Our species has survived for around 500k years mostly in a state of ketosis with few exceptions. There is tons of evidence. Start with Mike Eades, Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Paul Mason, Nina Teicholz, and Ken Berry.
For people who eat a lot of vegetables, it's possible to eat enough to interfere with ketosis even if they're non-starchy. Based on what I've read about keto, I would probably have to personally limit my vegetable consumption if I wanted to try it.
When I Google those names, I get a lot of YouTube links and non-historical nutritional advice. What research in particular are you citing for the claim that our species has been in ketosis for the past 500,000 years? None of them appear to be anthropologists or associated with research documenting this particular claim.
Peter S. Kaufman
Mark Mathan Cohen, PH. D.
Dr. Mike Eades
Blake Donaldson, M. D.
Max Klieber (Kleiber's Law)
Leslie Aiello & Wheeler
Lierre Keith
Michael Richards
Claire Cassidy
Armand Ruffer
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity"
" The expensive tissue hypothesis"
"Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66"
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145"
"Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136"10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason.
I agree that one can eat a no, or essentially no carb diet and not die. I don't personally believe that is healthy because I don't agree that it would be a healthy choice to cut out vegetables, and most would not eat the variety of organ meats necessary for adequate nutrition (which doesn't mean they'd die as a result, but I think has longer term effects). However, I also believe this is rather irrelevant, as most who do keto eat some carbs (ideally vegetables), and one can get adequate veg doing keto -- I just found it more stressful than necessary and did not like that I was cutting out a variety of healthy foods I normally eat, having to cut back on veg (I eat a lot of servings of non starchy veg normally, and not just leafy ones), and more meat than I prefer.Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
I don't believe this claim is grounded in anything credible, and it's inconsistent with the evidence about traditional human diets, blue zones, and the fact that those few cultures who were necessarily eating very low carbs regularly have a genetic modification that means they are NOT in ketosis when most of us would be.
But it might be the easiest way for you to eat in a healthful, calorie-appropriate manner, so carry on.
You're right. It is irrelevant. Check out Paul Saladino.
You shouldn't have had to cut out many veggies other than starches. And, there are vegan ketoers so too much meat for you shouldn't have been an issue either.
Finding it frustrating and giving up is an emotional response as stated before.
Our species has survived for around 500k years mostly in a state of ketosis with few exceptions. There is tons of evidence. Start with Mike Eades, Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Paul Mason, Nina Teicholz, and Ken Berry.
For people who eat a lot of vegetables, it's possible to eat enough to interfere with ketosis even if they're non-starchy. Based on what I've read about keto, I would probably have to personally limit my vegetable consumption if I wanted to try it.
When I Google those names, I get a lot of YouTube links and non-historical nutritional advice. What research in particular are you citing for the claim that our species has been in ketosis for the past 500,000 years? None of them appear to be anthropologists or associated with research documenting this particular claim.
Peter S. Kaufman
Mark Mathan Cohen, PH. D.
Dr. Mike Eades
Blake Donaldson, M. D.
Max Klieber (Kleiber's Law)
Leslie Aiello & Wheeler
Lierre Keith
Michael Richards
Claire Cassidy
Armand Ruffer
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity"
" The expensive tissue hypothesis"
"Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66"
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145"
"Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136"
And?
Instead of citation dumping, provide excerpts from your sources and explain how they support your premise.
Merely listing names and links without context does nothing to support your position14 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason.
I agree that one can eat a no, or essentially no carb diet and not die. I don't personally believe that is healthy because I don't agree that it would be a healthy choice to cut out vegetables, and most would not eat the variety of organ meats necessary for adequate nutrition (which doesn't mean they'd die as a result, but I think has longer term effects). However, I also believe this is rather irrelevant, as most who do keto eat some carbs (ideally vegetables), and one can get adequate veg doing keto -- I just found it more stressful than necessary and did not like that I was cutting out a variety of healthy foods I normally eat, having to cut back on veg (I eat a lot of servings of non starchy veg normally, and not just leafy ones), and more meat than I prefer.Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
I don't believe this claim is grounded in anything credible, and it's inconsistent with the evidence about traditional human diets, blue zones, and the fact that those few cultures who were necessarily eating very low carbs regularly have a genetic modification that means they are NOT in ketosis when most of us would be.
But it might be the easiest way for you to eat in a healthful, calorie-appropriate manner, so carry on.
You're right. It is irrelevant. Check out Paul Saladino.
You shouldn't have had to cut out many veggies other than starches. And, there are vegan ketoers so too much meat for you shouldn't have been an issue either.
Finding it frustrating and giving up is an emotional response as stated before.
Our species has survived for around 500k years mostly in a state of ketosis with few exceptions. There is tons of evidence. Start with Mike Eades, Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Paul Mason, Nina Teicholz, and Ken Berry.
For people who eat a lot of vegetables, it's possible to eat enough to interfere with ketosis even if they're non-starchy. Based on what I've read about keto, I would probably have to personally limit my vegetable consumption if I wanted to try it.
When I Google those names, I get a lot of YouTube links and non-historical nutritional advice. What research in particular are you citing for the claim that our species has been in ketosis for the past 500,000 years? None of them appear to be anthropologists or associated with research documenting this particular claim.
Peter S. Kaufman
Mark Mathan Cohen, PH. D.
Dr. Mike Eades
Blake Donaldson, M. D.
Max Kleiber (Kleiber's Law)
Leslie Aiello & Wheeler
Lierre Keith
Michael Richards
Claire Cassidy
Armand Ruffer
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity"
" The expensive tissue hypothesis"
"Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66"
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145"
"Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136"
Google results:
Peter S. Kaufman - investment banker
Mark Mathan Cohen -- in which publication does he make a claim that humans have been in ketosis for 500,000 years?
Mike Eades -- a medical doctor who appears to have no anthropological publications
Blake Donaldson -- a medical doctor who appears to have no anthropological publications
Max Kleiber - biologist from the 1930s, unclear what relation his work has to anthropological claims
Leslie Aiello and Wheeler (Peter?) - Work is related to higher intake of animal protein helping early humans develop higher brain size, can't find any claims that humans have been in ketosis for 500,000 years. Her work seems to focus on a time well before 500,000 years ago.
Lierre Keith -- an activist mainly noteworthy for her anti-vegetarian writings. No background in anthropology that I can tell.
Michael Richards -- an actual anthropologist! Which paper of his are you referencing here?
Claire Cassidy -- another anthropologist! Which paper of hers are you referencing here?
Armand Ruffer -- a pathologist who died in 1917.
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity" - returns one Google hit: https://www.dietdoctor.com/look-patients-lipids-glucose-low-carb-vs-high-carb
"The expensive tissue hypothesis" - This hypothesis is pretty well known, but it is not an argument that humans have been eating a ketogenic diet for the past 500,000 years
""Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM" -- This isn't a claim that humans *have* been eating ketogenically for the past 500,000 years, it's an argument that one *can* measure what humans are eating using these markers. It's a way to address the inaccuracy of self-reporting. Here is the study I assume you're referencing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26048703
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66" - This returns one result, to a reddit thread. I kept digging from there and was able to find some references to specific work by Richards. This particular link seems to be to a study of two Neanderthal populations which ate a lot of meat. There don't appear to be any claims about keto or any claims about what was eaten by those outside the groups studied. You can check it out here: https://www.pnas.org/content/97/13/7663 It's interesting stuff, to be sure, but for the claim that the ketogenic diet has been the standard worldwide for 500,000 years, it's irrelevant.
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145" -- Unfortunately, can't seem to find this online. That said, it's unlikely that a case study of two populations can be expanded to conclude that humans around the world were eating ketogenically for the past 500,000 years. Is that the claim made in the case study?
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
There are a lot of names and links here. Some of them don't appear to be related at all to the claim, some do have more of a relation. Do you have anything directly related to your claim that keto has been the standard for 500,000 years?
This is different than the claim that keto may have been practiced in some parts of the world during some periods of history. I'm sure it has been, because the world has amazingly diverse foods available and humans have excelled, in large part, due to our ability to meet our nutritional needs with a wide variety of dietary styles.
I'm less interested in modern diet doctors making claims about keto than I am for actual evidence about the claim. Since diet doctors are unlikely to have done the fieldwork necessary to actually document the historical claim being made, can we leave them out of the discussion? (Of course, any high achieving doctors who are moonlighting in actual anthropology would qualify to potentially document the claim).
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I've got access through my organization and found it.janejellyroll wrote: »
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
It's a literature review about ways to study and reconstruct historic, ancient, and paleolithic microbial "passengers" and the uses of that data It describes methods for examining ancient feces and dental plaque for the microbes that live in it. It does say that the techniques described COULD be used to discover evidence of ancient diets.
Interestingly, the examples of previous work on "discovering what ancients ate by studying their poop and teeth" contain many citaitons to studies that found plants, starchy foods, tubers, rhizomes, squashes, and legumes.
There's zero about ketosis.
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I've got access through my organization and found it.janejellyroll wrote: »
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
It's a literature review about ways to study and reconstruct historic, ancient, and paleolithic microbial "passengers" and the uses of that data It describes methods for examining ancient feces and dental plaque for the microbes that live in it. It does say that the techniques described COULD be used to discover evidence of ancient diets.
Interestingly, the examples of previous work on "discovering what ancients ate by studying their poop and teeth" contain many citaitons to studies that found plants, starchy foods, tubers, rhizomes, squashes, and legumes.
There's zero about ketosis.
Thank you so much! I always appreciate it when people are willing to look something up for me.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
I've got access through my organization and found it.janejellyroll wrote: »
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
It's a literature review about ways to study and reconstruct historic, ancient, and paleolithic microbial "passengers" and the uses of that data It describes methods for examining ancient feces and dental plaque for the microbes that live in it. It does say that the techniques described COULD be used to discover evidence of ancient diets.
Interestingly, the examples of previous work on "discovering what ancients ate by studying their poop and teeth" contain many citaitons to studies that found plants, starchy foods, tubers, rhizomes, squashes, and legumes.
There's zero about ketosis.
Thank you so much! I always appreciate it when people are willing to look something up for me.
It may be paywalled for you, but...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248414002620
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janejellyroll wrote: »
I've got access through my organization and found it.janejellyroll wrote: »
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
It's a literature review about ways to study and reconstruct historic, ancient, and paleolithic microbial "passengers" and the uses of that data It describes methods for examining ancient feces and dental plaque for the microbes that live in it. It does say that the techniques described COULD be used to discover evidence of ancient diets.
Interestingly, the examples of previous work on "discovering what ancients ate by studying their poop and teeth" contain many citaitons to studies that found plants, starchy foods, tubers, rhizomes, squashes, and legumes.
There's zero about ketosis.
Thank you so much! I always appreciate it when people are willing to look something up for me.
It may be paywalled for you, but...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248414002620
Unfortunately, it is. But thank you!0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason.
I agree that one can eat a no, or essentially no carb diet and not die. I don't personally believe that is healthy because I don't agree that it would be a healthy choice to cut out vegetables, and most would not eat the variety of organ meats necessary for adequate nutrition (which doesn't mean they'd die as a result, but I think has longer term effects). However, I also believe this is rather irrelevant, as most who do keto eat some carbs (ideally vegetables), and one can get adequate veg doing keto -- I just found it more stressful than necessary and did not like that I was cutting out a variety of healthy foods I normally eat, having to cut back on veg (I eat a lot of servings of non starchy veg normally, and not just leafy ones), and more meat than I prefer.Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
I don't believe this claim is grounded in anything credible, and it's inconsistent with the evidence about traditional human diets, blue zones, and the fact that those few cultures who were necessarily eating very low carbs regularly have a genetic modification that means they are NOT in ketosis when most of us would be.
But it might be the easiest way for you to eat in a healthful, calorie-appropriate manner, so carry on.
You're right. It is irrelevant. Check out Paul Saladino.
You shouldn't have had to cut out many veggies other than starches. And, there are vegan ketoers so too much meat for you shouldn't have been an issue either.
Finding it frustrating and giving up is an emotional response as stated before.
Our species has survived for around 500k years mostly in a state of ketosis with few exceptions. There is tons of evidence. Start with Mike Eades, Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Paul Mason, Nina Teicholz, and Ken Berry.
For people who eat a lot of vegetables, it's possible to eat enough to interfere with ketosis even if they're non-starchy. Based on what I've read about keto, I would probably have to personally limit my vegetable consumption if I wanted to try it.
When I Google those names, I get a lot of YouTube links and non-historical nutritional advice. What research in particular are you citing for the claim that our species has been in ketosis for the past 500,000 years? None of them appear to be anthropologists or associated with research documenting this particular claim.
Peter S. Kaufman
Mark Mathan Cohen, PH. D.
Dr. Mike Eades
Blake Donaldson, M. D.
Max Klieber (Kleiber's Law)
Leslie Aiello & Wheeler
Lierre Keith
Michael Richards
Claire Cassidy
Armand Ruffer
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity"
" The expensive tissue hypothesis"
"Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66"
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145"
"Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136"
I don't see how the expensive tissue hypothesis would show humans being in ketosis. In general, the limitations of the cost of intestinal tissues to eat carnivorously, and particularly that humans don't have them, suggests brains large enough to manipulate fire had to predate appreciable amounts of meat eating.8 -
I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason. There are no essential carbohydrates. If a person wants their body ran on the dependency to eat what and when they want for any reason other than optimization, then so be it. But, again. Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
Can you please reference this research you have done? I would like to read up on it.1 -
for me lc was a good jump start, lost 30 lbs in 4 months, now back to moderation eating, missed that fruit! and bread6
-
Started Keto right after Christmas...didn't even wait until the New Year because I was tired of all the food. Down 28 LBS and my blood glucose has dropped to almost a normal level. While I know not everyone agrees with the Keto WOE and it may not be for everyone, I'm really happy with the results so far. I think it's great for someone like me with Type 2 Diabetes.
So far I haven't really struggled with it either...but as with any "diet" I know to take it one day at a time. It's a mind game to be in the game. I really hope to make this a WOE forever.9 -
LCHF has helped me have my best ever Ha1c since starting it. Lost 14 lbs when Istarted, but gained back. Eating too many cap of fat, having to back up and see the nutritionist at Endo office who put me on Low carb. I will beat this I'm 59 never too late to start a lifestyle change.
5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I am 36. I've lost 85 pounds in 9 months. Every single marker of inflimation is gone. All of my aches and pains are gone. My mind is magnitudes more focused and clear. I have energy all day and jump out of bed with more vigor than when I was a kid. My grocery bill has been cut by 75%. I can smell now, which I could never do for my entire life. And, everything tastes better. My sexy drive is amazing. I haven't been sick since starting, yet everyone around me has been sick mutiple times. All of these wonderful side effect with NO EXERCISE!
Technically "keto" is any intake in nutrients that puts you in a state of ketosis. Which is pretty hard to do sometimes with carbohydrates. As far as I'm concerned, through my experience and personal research, being in ketosis or even having more metabolic flexibility is probably the most optimal way of being for 90% of humans.
Other than the smell thing, which is odd, that all sounds normal and common for people who need to and lose 85 lbs.
If you had a lot to lose or are a big guy, 85 in 9 months isn't that surprising either -- although great job!
Point is that there are lots of ways people do that besides keto. Keto may have been the easiest way for you, but for many of us it wouldn't be, or we tend to eat healthier diets not doing keto. So once again, keto is neither good nor bad. It's a way of eating that works well for some people, but likely not most people.
I agree that it may not be for everyone. With that said. There are many factors that come into play when trying to optimize yourself in any way. Emotions, habits, cravings, schedules, social cues, medical problems, etc. If we take the weight lose aspect out of it right, and only focus on what happens to our bodies when we are using minimal glucose, then there isn't any evidence left that we need any sort of carbohydrates for any reason.
I agree that one can eat a no, or essentially no carb diet and not die. I don't personally believe that is healthy because I don't agree that it would be a healthy choice to cut out vegetables, and most would not eat the variety of organ meats necessary for adequate nutrition (which doesn't mean they'd die as a result, but I think has longer term effects). However, I also believe this is rather irrelevant, as most who do keto eat some carbs (ideally vegetables), and one can get adequate veg doing keto -- I just found it more stressful than necessary and did not like that I was cutting out a variety of healthy foods I normally eat, having to cut back on veg (I eat a lot of servings of non starchy veg normally, and not just leafy ones), and more meat than I prefer.Through the research I've done, fueling the human body on fat and ketones seems to be optimal for the majority of the human population in almost every aspect.
I don't believe this claim is grounded in anything credible, and it's inconsistent with the evidence about traditional human diets, blue zones, and the fact that those few cultures who were necessarily eating very low carbs regularly have a genetic modification that means they are NOT in ketosis when most of us would be.
But it might be the easiest way for you to eat in a healthful, calorie-appropriate manner, so carry on.
You're right. It is irrelevant. Check out Paul Saladino.
You shouldn't have had to cut out many veggies other than starches. And, there are vegan ketoers so too much meat for you shouldn't have been an issue either.
Finding it frustrating and giving up is an emotional response as stated before.
Our species has survived for around 500k years mostly in a state of ketosis with few exceptions. There is tons of evidence. Start with Mike Eades, Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Paul Mason, Nina Teicholz, and Ken Berry.
For people who eat a lot of vegetables, it's possible to eat enough to interfere with ketosis even if they're non-starchy. Based on what I've read about keto, I would probably have to personally limit my vegetable consumption if I wanted to try it.
When I Google those names, I get a lot of YouTube links and non-historical nutritional advice. What research in particular are you citing for the claim that our species has been in ketosis for the past 500,000 years? None of them appear to be anthropologists or associated with research documenting this particular claim.
Peter S. Kaufman
Mark Mathan Cohen, PH. D.
Dr. Mike Eades
Blake Donaldson, M. D.
Max Kleiber (Kleiber's Law)
Leslie Aiello & Wheeler
Lierre Keith
Michael Richards
Claire Cassidy
Armand Ruffer
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity"
" The expensive tissue hypothesis"
"Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66"
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145"
"Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136"
Google results:
Peter S. Kaufman - investment banker
Mark Mathan Cohen -- in which publication does he make a claim that humans have been in ketosis for 500,000 years?
Mike Eades -- a medical doctor who appears to have no anthropological publications
Blake Donaldson -- a medical doctor who appears to have no anthropological publications
Max Kleiber - biologist from the 1930s, unclear what relation his work has to anthropological claims
Leslie Aiello and Wheeler (Peter?) - Work is related to higher intake of animal protein helping early humans develop higher brain size, can't find any claims that humans have been in ketosis for 500,000 years. Her work seems to focus on a time well before 500,000 years ago.
Lierre Keith -- an activist mainly noteworthy for her anti-vegetarian writings. No background in anthropology that I can tell.
Michael Richards -- an actual anthropologist! Which paper of his are you referencing here?
Claire Cassidy -- another anthropologist! Which paper of hers are you referencing here?
Armand Ruffer -- a pathologist who died in 1917.
Studies:
"Generations in the evolution of humanity" - returns one Google hit: https://www.dietdoctor.com/look-patients-lipids-glucose-low-carb-vs-high-carb
"The expensive tissue hypothesis" - This hypothesis is pretty well known, but it is not an argument that humans have been eating a ketogenic diet for the past 500,000 years
""Stable isotope ratios as biomarkers for health resesrch" O'Brien DM" -- This isn't a claim that humans *have* been eating ketogenically for the past 500,000 years, it's an argument that one *can* measure what humans are eating using these markers. It's a way to address the inaccuracy of self-reporting. Here is the study I assume you're referencing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26048703
"Richards, MP et al (2000) PNAS 97(13):7663-66" - This returns one result, to a reddit thread. I kept digging from there and was able to find some references to specific work by Richards. This particular link seems to be to a study of two Neanderthal populations which ate a lot of meat. There don't appear to be any claims about keto or any claims about what was eaten by those outside the groups studied. You can check it out here: https://www.pnas.org/content/97/13/7663 It's interesting stuff, to be sure, but for the claim that the ketogenic diet has been the standard worldwide for 500,000 years, it's irrelevant.
"Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers: a case study of two populations, Nutritional Anthropology, Redgrave publishing Co. 117-145" -- Unfortunately, can't seem to find this online. That said, it's unlikely that a case study of two populations can be expanded to conclude that humans around the world were eating ketogenically for the past 500,000 years. Is that the claim made in the case study?
""Warner C(2015) Ancient Human Microbiomes, J Hum Evol 79:125-136" - Having trouble locating this. Can you share the claim that is being made there?
There are a lot of names and links here. Some of them don't appear to be related at all to the claim, some do have more of a relation. Do you have anything directly related to your claim that keto has been the standard for 500,000 years?
This is different than the claim that keto may have been practiced in some parts of the world during some periods of history. I'm sure it has been, because the world has amazingly diverse foods available and humans have excelled, in large part, due to our ability to meet our nutritional needs with a wide variety of dietary styles.
I'm less interested in modern diet doctors making claims about keto than I am for actual evidence about the claim. Since diet doctors are unlikely to have done the fieldwork necessary to actually document the historical claim being made, can we leave them out of the discussion? (Of course, any high achieving doctors who are moonlighting in actual anthropology would qualify to potentially document the claim).
These were just some facts that I have found interesting.
I would think that a diet of mostly meat and fat, especially throughout the ice ages where there were almost no plants growing, that it would naturally lead to a state of ketosis since there wouldn't be enough natural carbohydrates to stay any considerable length of time in glucosis. Also, if you account for how different the plants were then and how much you'd have to eat to get enough. It's pretty hard to say that they were not in ketosis.
Thanks for putting in the work in the name of science and keeping an open mind. 😎11
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