Carbs are bad. Yes or no?
Replies
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ryanmichaelhorn wrote: »There's no such thing as a bad macronutrient. You need them all, including carbohydrates, as the following papers have found:
"Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize."
Sacks, F. M., Bray, G. A., Carey, V. J., Smith, S. R., Ryan, D. H., Anton, S. D., ... & Leboff, M. S. (2009). Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. New England Journal of Medicine, 360(9), 859-873.
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."
Johnston, C. S., Tjonn, S. L., Swan, P. D., White, A., Hutchins, H., & Sears, B. (2006). Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 83(5), 1055-1061.
This is where it gets slippery. Technically we don't need carbs to survive. Then that get's turned into we don't need them at all. Do you want to survive or thrive...?6 -
ryanmichaelhorn wrote: »There's no such thing as a bad macronutrient. You need them all, including carbohydrates, as the following papers have found:
"Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize."
Sacks, F. M., Bray, G. A., Carey, V. J., Smith, S. R., Ryan, D. H., Anton, S. D., ... & Leboff, M. S. (2009). Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. New England Journal of Medicine, 360(9), 859-873.
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."
Johnston, C. S., Tjonn, S. L., Swan, P. D., White, A., Hutchins, H., & Sears, B. (2006). Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 83(5), 1055-1061.
This is where it gets slippery. Technically we don't need carbs to survive. Then that get's turned into we don't need them at all. Do you want to survive or thrive...?
Sugars, sure, but what about fiber derived from carbohydrates? Probably just a discussion about my original phrasing or our conversation centering completely around energy balance, but I would argue that cutting out 100% of carbohydrates would lead to insufficient nutrient intake resulting in a myriad of health problems.4 -
ryanmichaelhorn wrote: »ryanmichaelhorn wrote: »There's no such thing as a bad macronutrient. You need them all, including carbohydrates, as the following papers have found:
"Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize."
Sacks, F. M., Bray, G. A., Carey, V. J., Smith, S. R., Ryan, D. H., Anton, S. D., ... & Leboff, M. S. (2009). Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. New England Journal of Medicine, 360(9), 859-873.
"KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted."
Johnston, C. S., Tjonn, S. L., Swan, P. D., White, A., Hutchins, H., & Sears, B. (2006). Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 83(5), 1055-1061.
This is where it gets slippery. Technically we don't need carbs to survive. Then that get's turned into we don't need them at all. Do you want to survive or thrive...?
Sugars, sure, but what about fiber derived from carbohydrates? Probably just a discussion about my original phrasing or our conversation centering completely around energy balance, but I would argue that cutting out 100% of carbohydrates would lead to insufficient nutrient intake resulting in a myriad of health problems.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am just saying this is what the "anit-carb" crowd like to say to defend their point of view. Yes it's technically true, but in the big picture IMO it is not a good idea long term. Of course it is important to point out that there will always be outliers that skew the thinking...2 -
Carbs in one form or another have been around for millions of years, feeding just about everything on earth. How could carbs be "bad" overnight?4
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@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.13 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.
???
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GaleHawkins wrote: »@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.
???
Yeah, that's just nonsense and demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the physiology of T2D.9 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.
???
5 years ago I did not know carbs are required in most cases to develop fasting glucose levels over 100 (USA).
Even the ADA only learned/accepted this fact in about the role of carbs last year and why they are putting out info to cut carbs to help Type 2 diabetes. Carbs are a factor in Type 1 diabetes but not the cause of Type 1 Diabetes.
New study: Reduced-carb diet beats conventional diabetes diet
https://dietdoctor.com/new-study-reduced-carb-diet-beats-conventional-diabetes-diet
"In 2019, a conventional diabetes diet — providing between 60–90 grams of carbs at meals and 15–30 grams of carbs at snacks — is no longer considered state-of-the-art.
Earlier this year, after decades of recommending a low-fat, high-carb approach, the American Diabetes Association (ADA) published a consensus report stating that “reducing overall carbohydrate intake for individuals with diabetes has demonstrated the most evidence for improving glycemia (blood sugar).”
And just recently, a lower-carb diet was found to be more effective than a conventional diabetes diet for decreasing blood sugar and liver fat in people with type 2 diabetes:
Diabetologia: A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet improves HbA1c and liver fat content in weight stable participants with type 2 diabetes: a randomised controlled trial"
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GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.
???
5 years ago I did not know carbs are required in most cases to develop fasting glucose levels over 100 (USA).
Even the ADA only learned/accepted this fact in about the role of carbs last year and why they are putting out info to cut carbs to help Type 2 diabetes. Carbs are a factor in Type 1 diabetes but not the cause of Type 1 Diabetes.
New study: Reduced-carb diet beats conventional diabetes diet
https://dietdoctor.com/new-study-reduced-carb-diet-beats-conventional-diabetes-diet
"In 2019, a conventional diabetes diet — providing between 60–90 grams of carbs at meals and 15–30 grams of carbs at snacks — is no longer considered state-of-the-art.
Earlier this year, after decades of recommending a low-fat, high-carb approach, the American Diabetes Association (ADA) published a consensus report stating that “reducing overall carbohydrate intake for individuals with diabetes has demonstrated the most evidence for improving glycemia (blood sugar).”
And just recently, a lower-carb diet was found to be more effective than a conventional diabetes diet for decreasing blood sugar and liver fat in people with type 2 diabetes:
Diabetologia: A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet improves HbA1c and liver fat content in weight stable participants with type 2 diabetes: a randomised controlled trial"
Am I correct in assuming these are suggestions once you already have diabetes? Not to prevent diabetes?7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »@ryanmichaelhorn there is no way I would consider "Zero Carb" as a Way Of Eating to be healthy in my case. When I cut out foods containing any added sugars and or any form of grains back in 2014 I went more plant based than ever but have not left off protein and fats sources in the same way. Well I do try to not eat any trans fats of course.
About a month ago I ate about 6 tablespoons of raw honey for the first time in years and noticed stool forming improvement so I researched why that might be. Turns out there is some important complex sugars in honey that humans typically can not digest that the colon microbiome need to eat to protect the colon.
Going down that rabbit hole I learned raw apples including the stem and core, honey and bananas contain good food sources for the gut microbiome so I have added these three carb sources to my WOE with only positive results so far.
Carbs are required to develop the common Type 2 diabetes it seems in most cases but that does not make them "bad". Abuse of anything can become a "bad" thing that but not the objects being abused themselves.
???
5 years ago I did not know carbs are required in most cases to develop fasting glucose levels over 100 (USA).
Even the ADA only learned/accepted this fact in about the role of carbs last year and why they are putting out info to cut carbs to help Type 2 diabetes. Carbs are a factor in Type 1 diabetes but not the cause of Type 1 Diabetes.
New study: Reduced-carb diet beats conventional diabetes diet
https://dietdoctor.com/new-study-reduced-carb-diet-beats-conventional-diabetes-diet
"In 2019, a conventional diabetes diet — providing between 60–90 grams of carbs at meals and 15–30 grams of carbs at snacks — is no longer considered state-of-the-art.
Earlier this year, after decades of recommending a low-fat, high-carb approach, the American Diabetes Association (ADA) published a consensus report stating that “reducing overall carbohydrate intake for individuals with diabetes has demonstrated the most evidence for improving glycemia (blood sugar).”
And just recently, a lower-carb diet was found to be more effective than a conventional diabetes diet for decreasing blood sugar and liver fat in people with type 2 diabetes:
Diabetologia: A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet improves HbA1c and liver fat content in weight stable participants with type 2 diabetes: a randomised controlled trial"
"WHAT CAUSES TYPE 2 DIABETES?
Several factors can cause type 2 diabetes, such as insulin resistance, heredity, being obese or overweight, lack of physical activity, abnormal glucose production by the liver, metabolic syndrome, problems with cell signaling, and beta cell dysfunction.
Insulin resistance is a condition where the body still produces insulin but is unable to use it properly. It is more commonly seen in people who are overweight or obese, and lead a sedentary lifestyle. This leads to a buildup of glucose (sugar) in the blood, which can result in prediabetes or diabetes.
Certain genes that affect insulin production rather than insulin resistance are a risk factor for developing type 2 diabetes. Family history of diabetes is a risk factor, and people of certain races or ethnicities are at higher risk, including African Americans, Hispanics/Latinos, Native Americans, some Asians, and Native Hawaiians or other Pacific Islanders.
Obesity and lack of physical activity can cause type 2 diabetes, especially excess abdominal fat.
Abnormal glucose production by the liver can also lead to high blood glucose levels.
Metabolic syndrome is a serious health condition that includes a group of risk factors such as higher than normal blood glucose levels, excess abdominal fat and increased waist size ("apple" shape), high blood pressure, and high cholesterol and triglycerides. Metabolic syndrome can also increase risk for heart disease and stroke.
Cell signaling – how cells communicate to regulate body processes – may not work properly and can set off a chain reaction that leads to diabetes.
Insulin-producing beta cells in the pancreas may be damaged and this dysfunction can cause insufficient or abnormal insulin release. Glucose toxicity is when beta cells are damaged by high blood glucose."
Does not say one thing about carbs...10 -
Carbs stole my car and slept with my man!
JK - we're besties!9 -
Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
???3 -
Kathryn247 wrote: »Carbs stole my car and slept with my man!
JK - we're besties!
Ugh. That just chafes my chicken.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
Please explain the physiological process by which carbs are required to develop common type 2 diabetes in an otherwise normal weight individual. Also, please use peer reviewed studies, as a minimum source of proof, to support your assertion. By this I mean no articles or blogs. Good luck!13 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
Please explain the physiological process by which carbs are required to develop common type 2 diabetes in an otherwise normal weight individual. Also, please use peer reviewed studies, as a minimum source of proof, to support your assertion. By this I mean no articles or blogs. Good luck!
^^^ this andGaleHawkins wrote: »Even the ADA only learned/accepted this fact in about the role of carbs last year and why they are putting out info to cut carbs to help Type 2 diabetes. Carbs are a factor in Type 1 diabetes but not the cause of Type 1 Diabetes.
@GaleHawkins Did you mean to say T2D when you typed this??? I ask because diet has nothing (zero, zip, nada) to do with type 1 diabetes. T1 diabetes is ALWAYS 1 of 2 things - either an auto-immune misfire where the body attacks and destroys the insulin producing cells in the pancreas, or a genetic disorder where the pancreas simply doesn't produce insulin.11 -
I think the people with the most significant longevity are somewhere in Japan eating a lot of sweet potatoes and a high high amount of carbohydrate. I haven't found the scientific evidence that points to a high fat, high protien diet as a good way to eat over a full lifetime. Nor is a very high carbohydrate diet been proven to be a good way to eat into older age.
I don't think carbs are evil and I like them. I don't feel well when I over indulge in a high amount of carbohydrates combined with a lot of fat.
I vary my food quite a lot. I like vegetables and fruit and basically a vegetarian way of eating, but a lot of my days are lowish in carbohydrates. I'm becoming way more attentive to how I feel and energy levels because I am quite active for my age and its important to me that what I eat works to give me a healthy, good feeling and plenty of energy with a good nights sleep.
So many carbohydrate debates!
Regarding the bold, couldn't that be said with anything edible at all though?
Well, ya, you are correct!
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
https://www.everydayhealth.com/type-2-diabetes/type-2-diabetes/can-thin-people-get-type-2-diabetes/
Once again, nothing about leaving out the carbs, and that's even for the 10% of thin people who can become type 2 diabetic...5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
https://www.everydayhealth.com/type-2-diabetes/type-2-diabetes/can-thin-people-get-type-2-diabetes/
Once again, nothing about leaving out the carbs, and that's even for the 10% of thin people who can become type 2 diabetic...
Interesting how quiet it gets when this poster is actually asked for peer reviewed evidence for the questionable info they post.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Leave off the carbs then what happens in the case of type 2 diabetes?
https://www.everydayhealth.com/type-2-diabetes/type-2-diabetes/can-thin-people-get-type-2-diabetes/
Once again, nothing about leaving out the carbs, and that's even for the 10% of thin people who can become type 2 diabetic...
Interesting how quiet it gets when this poster is actually asked for peer reviewed evidence for the questionable info they post.
Indeed...1
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