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Ethical food consumption
Replies
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Carlos_421 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
Ground that isn't suitable for cattle isn't suitable for food crops.
Sorry, but that is a non sequitur. I said nothing about using ground not suitable for cattle to grow food crops. The point is that it is more efficient for humans to get their calories directly from the plants rather than to use "middlemen" (middleanimals?) to consume plants that humans could consume (corn, other grains, and soy) -- you can feed more people an adequate diet if you just feed them the plants directly. And, in general, if you are going to eat animals and animal products (dairy, eggs), it tends to be more efficient to eat smaller animals. The amount of plants you have to feed a smaller animal to get a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories to consume will generally be less than the amount you have to feed a larger animal to produce a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories.
And if you look historically and globally, land that was suitable for food crops wasn't wasted on cattle, or goats, or sheep. Grazing animals were domesticated, managed, or herded to make use of land that wasn't suitable for food crops. Humans didn't have a long enough digestive tract to make use of grass, brush, etc., directly, so they ate the animals that could make use of those plants.
ETA: Also, if you look historically and globally, poor people tend to have much less animal protein in their diet than higher-income or higher-wealth people. This seems like a far odder choice on their parts if animal protein is the only practical and economic way to ensure an adequate diet for the world than the choice of industrial farms to focus on what is, relatively speaking, a luxury product. If producing luxury products was such a bad economic for those looking to turn a profit, there would be no jewelers, no boat makers, no builders of high-end houses. Every car would be a basic, utilitarian model.6 -
liftingbro wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
May be but for people into fitness and athletics the protein requirement is even higher than the average person eats right now. If we want a bunch of skinny folks running around we could all go vegan. Personally, I don't think another person's morals are to be pushed on everyone else but I know a lot of people that think that way.
I'm not talking about morals. I was addressing your repeated argument that somehow cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world and that other protein sources are impractical.
It is. Unless you want to tell people they can't eat meat or have to eat less than the RDA. Even the RDA isn't suitable for active people though.
What source are you basing that on? Plenty of other sources of protein seem more efficient to produce than beef.
I already posted an article above about it.
#1- Goats require more manual labor than cows.
#2- The nature of goats means they get more diseases.
#3- If it were true you could produce more meat and milk on a same sized farm as an average cattle based farm farmers would do that but they don't.
There's also very little demand for goat meat/milk in most industrialized countries. So basically, more labor= more cost. More disease=more cost. Sure, if every family raised goats it would work but in a society where very few people want to keep animals we are dependent on industrial farms and goats are not suitable for that type of farming.
I'm not comparing only with lamb and goats.
If you look at this, beef is by far less efficient than everything but sheep and goats:
https://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts
https://www.wri.org/resources/charts-graphs/animal-based-foods-are-more-resource-intensive-plant-based-foods
Even if you exclude plant-based sources (which I wouldn't, since one option is just to eat less animal based, more plant based), chicken and pork are more efficient sources. Of course, right now the industrial farming of them is pretty horrible, but as Lynn said we aren't talking about morals, we are talking about the claim that cattle consumption is necessary to feed the world.
Yes, of course chicken and pork are more efficient sources of meant but obviously not dairy. I believe pork is already the most eaten meant world wide so...
So, yes, we could shift to more chicken and pork but they are probably even more industrialized than cattle. I've worked on an industrial chicken farm which is one reason I don't eat chicken from those farms. My job was to vaccinate chickens and pack them in cages for transport. Literally 20 chickens in a little square mesh cage. A stink in the barn so bad it wouldn't wash off. It's disgusting, even for farming. I know pig farmers and while the pigs are actually treated pretty well their farms are huge scale.
Most dairy and beef farmers seem to much smaller operations than pork, chicken and turkey operations. At least around here.
So your argument to eat cattle is really based on your effort to foist your moral view that cattle are generally more ethically treated than pigs, chicken, and turkey.2 -
liftingbro wrote: »Problem is that there's no way to provide the amount of meat to feed everyone without industrial farms and also have it at a price that is generally affordable.
Also, if we're talking about fitness, protein requirements are higher than the RDA.
I am not sure if this is the case...at least not in my part of the world...there are so many abandoned lands that nobody cares for and pasture that is being trimmed with trimming machines. It's almost impossible to see a cow, a pig or a sheep outside in the countryside.
If all those land would be utilized, I would probably share your opinion, right now it sounds too me like one of those widely spread beliefs that are hard to prove/disprove.
Regarding proteins...I don't have enough knowledge to argue about how much proteins we need, but a look into the historical consumption of proteins raises a question if we maybe are going overboard with proteins lately.
(I am not talking about bodybuilders, but an average person with average physical activity)
Even though this is wildly off-topic, I completely agree. The town I live in (semi-rural NC) has many empty buildings that could be put to better use. Our own government is part of the problem- there have been 4 social security office buildings that have been built in our town since the 1980s, and only 2 are being used by other businesses. You see roadkill everywhere because of the logging and everybody hits at least 1 deer per year in their cars because they're always on the move. We have an empty Kmart building, but instead of it being used, they're building a Tractor Supply store elsewhere.
While the land may not be prime for raising livestock, it's not being used either. Sometimes I feel like local farmers are being forced into smaller and smaller spaces so that the only option for raising animals for food is the nightmares you have at the industrial farms where there are many animals crammed into small spaces. But that's just my 2 cents on the situation.2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
Ground that isn't suitable for cattle isn't suitable for food crops.
Sorry, but that is a non sequitur. I said nothing about using ground not suitable for cattle to grow food crops. The point is that it is more efficient for humans to get their calories directly from the plants rather than to use "middlemen" (middleanimals?) to consume plants that humans could consume (corn, other grains, and soy) -- you can feed more people an adequate diet if you just feed them the plants directly. And, in general, if you are going to eat animals and animal products (dairy, eggs), it tends to be more efficient to eat smaller animals. The amount of plants you have to feed a smaller animal to get a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories to consume will generally be less than the amount you have to feed a larger animal to produce a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories.
And if you look historically and globally, land that was suitable for food crops wasn't wasted on cattle, or goats, or sheep. Grazing animals were domesticated, managed, or herded to make use of land that wasn't suitable for food crops. Humans didn't have a long enough digestive tract to make use of grass, brush, etc., directly, so they ate the animals that could make use of those plants.
ETA: Also, if you look historically and globally, poor people tend to have much less animal protein in their diet than higher-income or higher-wealth people. This seems like a far odder choice on their parts if animal protein is the only practical and economic way to ensure an adequate diet for the world than the choice of industrial farms to focus on what is, relatively speaking, a luxury product. If producing luxury products was such a bad economic for those looking to turn a profit, there would be no jewelers, no boat makers, no builders of high-end houses. Every car would be a basic, utilitarian model.
The bolded is exactly what I was getting at.5 -
My greatest ethical angst around my levels of food consumption comes from the amount of packaging waste involved in almost everything. It is so convenient to be able to scan a single serving size barcode to enter food in MFP. After all that’s how most of us get our food delivered and if you are active and on the go, this may be even more true. When I look at my household packaging waste on trash/recycling day and consider its volume in relation to the amount of food it contained, I feel irresponsible. Yes, there are ways to get food ecologically for those who have the money and or time to afford it. But mass markets will always be dominated by the product that gets there faster, fresher, and more intact. I have no answers. Just angst.13
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Interesting topic, and while I can say that for vegetables I do tend to get organic, buy at vegetable/fruit stands local. Much more than buy at large chains. And really make a concentrated effort to use up all the edible parts in veges and fruits. For meats/poultry/fish I aim to buy in portion size or cut down to portion size that I know gets used 100%.
Just in last couple of months found a place to buy eggs that are raised locally. Better yet, I bring my own container to put them in.
Because in many places, but most certainly here in the USA. One of the largest issues we face is the fact that never for most parts of the country has there been a huge mandatory push for recycling plastic and all other items that should be recycled. And that issue is going to continue to become a huge burden. Heck some cities stopped their recycling efforts once China and other Asian countries quit accepting our so called recycled plastic.
I think stores should charge for the plastic one use bags. And go back to brown paper bags, or we use or own bags. For all major chains that sell their own bags I have them. In my humble opinion.3 -
RachelElser wrote: »I also try to eat as ethically as possible. There are several organic, grass feed farms (I visited one, the pastures are very nice) that sell whole and half cows, pigs, and chickens. Eggs I get from a guy at church who has chicken. I think milk is vile, so I don't drink it. I am planting a garden this year- i have deer but my friends hubby is going to build me an enclosed garden, yay! I also bought a house with a double lot and am planting fruit trees. There won't be fruit for a few years, but it's coming.
But my main question is- what is the ethical argument against wool? Sheep grow wool not matter what, it doesn't harm them to sheer it off, so what the problem there?
A vegan would avoid wool because we can't be sure if the animal is treated humanely while being used for wool. There is abuse of animals in this industry. Also, when an animal's wool production falls, they're often slaughtered (as they are no longer profitable).2 -
For us, it means hunting, fishing and growing as much of our food as we can.
Eventually humanely raising what we can as well. This way, we know what we're eating, we know that getting from "farm to table " was as humane as possible.4 -
I do not want to cause animals harm. I love animals. I am very much against factory farming because animals there are treated very poorly. Many are tortured.
If someone wants to eat meat, pasture raised is best, or buying from farms where at least their time on this earth is peaceful is better. Eating less meat and dairy helps, even if one doesn’t eliminate it entirely.
I eat mostly plant based now. I do eat occasional eggs from a friends backyard chickens. Occasionally I eat shrimp or fish.
I also feel it is important to protect our environment too. I try to use as little plastic as possible and recycle everything I can. I have silicone straws and containers now, and reusable grocery bags.4 -
liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
My mother kept goats and I grew up on goat's milk. I never developed a taste for cow's milk, and I lost my taste for goat's milk. We don't need to drink cow's milk as adults (and arguably not as children either.)
As others have said, our protein doesn't have to come from cows either. Some (or all) of it can come from other animals, or plants.
I've donated goats as gifts in people's names:
https://www.oxfamgifts.com/gifts/donate-goat/
No kid-ding here—this gift is an invaluable resource for rural communities.
A hardy goat is the gift of sustainability, which means fertilizer and food for families—especially those living in areas that cannot support less-durable critters.7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you aware of the land requirements for successful farming/cattle pasturing? Just because land is "abandoned" doesn't mean it can be effectively used for those activities.
Yes, I grew up in the countryside, on a small, family farm. We had sheep, pigs, chickens, geese, etc. so I do know something about it, although not everything for every kind of animal.
What I do know, however, is that last 20 years (in my country, probably more in the more developed countries) there has been a huge trend toward industrial farming even in small or family businesses. Even between people who just grow animals for their own needs. It's quite irrational since they do have land, they do have customers willing to buy and pay a bigger price for it, they have lower initial costs regarding equipment, and yet many of them choose to go high tech and usually fail in few years because of too big initial costs and credits they cannot pay off.
To give you a small example - nowadays nobody has a hen with eggs/chickens, almost every household has an incubator for laying chickens.
Well, I like to support those who make an additional effort to go beyond something that is a current, IMO very cruel, trend.
EDIT:
Regarding pastures - I just feel the need to share an image where my ancestors were raising sheep and planted olive trees (it's a very rocky terrain, in live, it looks almost like a surface of the moon):
Those sheep actually play a big role in keeping vegetation alive on these islands.
My point is - not all land is good for everything, but through history, we adapted to survive and thrive even on the poorest land.
Sheep and goats can be raised on just about any land because they are smaller and require less food. You can't have cattle on that sort of terrain, they would go lame from the rocks and wouldn't have enough grass.
Sheep and goats are not going to support the meat/milk needs of the world on their own.
I love goats milk and mutton. I grew up on a farm too.
Sheep and goats are more efficient converters of plants into animal protein than cattle, so your assertion is illogical.
and sheep and goats have been used for their milk for 1000s of years.
That's obvious. Nobody is disputing you can't use goats and sheep for milk. Have you ever seen how much milk 1 cow these days can produce? Average cow now days produces 9 gallons a day, goat 1 gallon, maybe. A cow will eat 100lbs per day, goat 4lbs. So yes, for pound of food in to pound of food out Goats are better that way but the there is much more labor involved in running a goat farm for milk.
However much more efficient they may be in producing meat/milk they are much more difficult to keep:
https://newfoodeconomy.org/the-goat-gap/
I'm not against goat/sheep, I love goat milk and meat. Just not practical for the current population of the planet.
"Practical for the current population of the planet" would be for consumers of animal products to get a higher proportion of their diet from non-animal sources.
Ground that isn't suitable for cattle isn't suitable for food crops.
Sorry, but that is a non sequitur. I said nothing about using ground not suitable for cattle to grow food crops. The point is that it is more efficient for humans to get their calories directly from the plants rather than to use "middlemen" (middleanimals?) to consume plants that humans could consume (corn, other grains, and soy) -- you can feed more people an adequate diet if you just feed them the plants directly. And, in general, if you are going to eat animals and animal products (dairy, eggs), it tends to be more efficient to eat smaller animals. The amount of plants you have to feed a smaller animal to get a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories to consume will generally be less than the amount you have to feed a larger animal to produce a pound of flesh or X number of edible calories.
And if you look historically and globally, land that was suitable for food crops wasn't wasted on cattle, or goats, or sheep. Grazing animals were domesticated, managed, or herded to make use of land that wasn't suitable for food crops. Humans didn't have a long enough digestive tract to make use of grass, brush, etc., directly, so they ate the animals that could make use of those plants.
ETA: Also, if you look historically and globally, poor people tend to have much less animal protein in their diet than higher-income or higher-wealth people. This seems like a far odder choice on their parts if animal protein is the only practical and economic way to ensure an adequate diet for the world than the choice of industrial farms to focus on what is, relatively speaking, a luxury product. If producing luxury products was such a bad economic for those looking to turn a profit, there would be no jewelers, no boat makers, no builders of high-end houses. Every car would be a basic, utilitarian model.
Not being overweight or obese would also decrease the need for production of animal products. With 71.6 % of the population of the US overweight or obese, we are over-consuming.
I spent a few months in poor, rural Costa Rico. During that time, I only saw one obese person - the local jefe. (this is just observational; I am not claiming it was statistical.)
We got most of our raw ingredients locally. Fruits and vegetables were abundant, and rice & beans were carried in by local farmers on horseback. We had eggs once or twice a week, and chicken every 10 days or so. I definitely didn't have any beef while I was there, but I have no idea what was the "jungle meat" our neighboring Guyami Indians would bring over from time to time.
Similarly, when I lived in Okinawa in the 80's and shopped in local markets, fruits and veggies were dirt cheap, and beef so expensive I did not buy it locally. I don't remember seeing any obese local people then.
Okinawa is a Blue Zone: https://www.bluezones.com/2017/05/okinawa-diet-eating-living-100/4 -
I actually think of it as a little broader.
This is sort of a downer, but personally, I think all of us well-off (in global terms) first-world-ers are unavoidably little moving bundles of global harm: Environmental damage, human exploitation, animal exploitation, more.
Nice people do things to mitigate that harm, and it makes sense to start with the things that are easiest for us as individuals. There's no way to completely fix all the harm done on our behalf, sadly.
So, eating ethically, in ways that work for us, that we can fit into our lives, is a rational thing for a nice person to try to do.
It's really complicated, in some cases, because real-world actions all have side effects, so many things are profoundly interconnected these days, and one gets into trying to assess comparative harm. Since much of the readily-available information is going to come from advocacy organizations on one side or another, it can be difficult for a non-expert to sort out what really is more ethical, or at least less unethical: Eating plant-based foods that require clearing forest land, and transport from far-away places, maybe exploited labor; or meat that's produced locally and with transported inputs? Efficent factory-style operations that help more humans, and economically less advantaged humans, to get better nutrition? Lots of dimensions.
Like I said, I think nice people do what they can, and do the best they can with it. It's hard to discuss, without getting into quasi-religious arguments about it, IMO.
Well stated. In reality it's all a very complex balance, and each person has to find what they feel is the best balance.
What is the most ethical or humane for the animal might also have a much larger environmental impact. A good example of this is grain fed vs grass fed beef. One could argue that the free roaming grass fed beef supply is treated more humanely but while doing so that animal will use more land, more water, emit more greenhouse gasses, and will still ultimately die.
Many plants that people on all kinds of diets eat are incredibly water hungry for the nutrition they return. In some parts of the world industrial plant production has vast ethical consequences, such as many rural homesteader families in Chile having to truck in water since the avocado farms drain sources dry and the natural source is no longer available. Should I enjoy a nutritious, delicious, cheap avocado at the expense of someone in another country? Probably not.
"Ethical" in terms of food consumption is very complex in my opinion.
As far as what we try to do as a family...
Consume less beef and more efficient chicken and poultry as primary meat sources
Try to move towards more plant based protein sources
Avoid any cruel animal treatment practices while accepting that every animal killed is cruel in some sense
Think about the entire environmental impact of the process rather than cherry pick. If I make multiple trips in a gas guzzling SUV to buy my "environmentally friendly" product, haven't I somewhat defeated the point?
I just do what I can do and what I think is right for my situation.4 -
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France to ban culling of unwanted male chicks by end of 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
About seven billion male chicks - not wanted for meat or eggs - are killed around the world each year, usually in shredding machines or by gas.
I thought the above was interesting. I believe a similar practice happens with male dairy cows. It makes me curious, even if I buy step 5 animal welfare milk and eggs, does it mean only the living animals were treated well? Or does it also apply to how they treat the unwanted animals that don't produce dairy and eggs?
male dairy cows are often sold for meat. if not for human consumption, for dog or cat. from what i read and the one diary farmer i knew3 -
France to ban culling of unwanted male chicks by end of 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
About seven billion male chicks - not wanted for meat or eggs - are killed around the world each year, usually in shredding machines or by gas.
I thought the above was interesting. I believe a similar practice happens with male dairy cows. It makes me curious, even if I buy step 5 animal welfare milk and eggs, does it mean only the living animals were treated well? Or does it also apply to how they treat the unwanted animals that don't produce dairy and eggs?
It's pretty bold of them to announce they're ending the practice before we've actually developed a way to sex a bird pre-hatching. They're either really confident that the method will be ready in time or they're counting on people not caring much if the date has to be set back.
For male dairy calves, the length of their life depends on what the market is for beef and veal. Sometimes they're killed relatively quickly for veal, sometimes they live longer and are then killed for beef. But there are also times when immediate killing costs less than the cost of bringing them to market, so they're just killed immediately (usually by gunshot, I believe).
My understanding is that there are no "Step Five" standards for dairy products, only for beef. The guidelines for laying hens only apply to hens -- there is nothing in there about male chicks: https://globalanimalpartnership.org/standards/laying-hen
My assumption would be that their practices are the same as the rest of the industry, as it isn't economically feasible to house a bunch of male chickens with no economic benefit.2 -
Maybe it's a European thing...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/21/morrisons-moves-to-end-killing-of-male-calves-at-birth
It can cost a farmer £2 a day to rear a calf, with selling prices as low as £25–40. In contrast, shooting the calf costs as little as £9, including the bill for disposing of the animal.
A Guardian investigation last year revealed an estimated 95,000 male dairy calves were being slaughtered on-farm as farmers couldn’t afford to keep them, in a practice known as the dairy industry’s “dirty secret”.
My family buys male day old dairy calves to raise for meat. We often buy a few at a time and sell to friends as well. Farmers don’t waste or kill for nothing. These articles make it seem as if it is enjoyable. If we don’t take the calves the farmer can sell to other places that slaughter for various uses. Or if he shoots it himself it feeds his dogs for a few days. I see no problem with this. In our own farm if I have picked out a ewe who I feel is too old to breed/who is a poor mother we will butcher her and put the meat in the freezer labeled as dog food.9 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Maybe it's a European thing...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/21/morrisons-moves-to-end-killing-of-male-calves-at-birth
It can cost a farmer £2 a day to rear a calf, with selling prices as low as £25–40. In contrast, shooting the calf costs as little as £9, including the bill for disposing of the animal.
A Guardian investigation last year revealed an estimated 95,000 male dairy calves were being slaughtered on-farm as farmers couldn’t afford to keep them, in a practice known as the dairy industry’s “dirty secret”.
My family buys male day old dairy calves to raise for meat. We often buy a few at a time and sell to friends as well. Farmers don’t waste or kill for nothing. These articles make it seem as if it is enjoyable. If we don’t take the calves the farmer can sell to other places that slaughter for various uses. Or if he shoots it himself it feeds his dogs for a few days. I see no problem with this. In our own farm if I have picked out a ewe who I feel is too old to breed/who is a poor mother we will butcher her and put the meat in the freezer labeled as dog food.
Are you arguing that the behavior described in the Guardian article isn't happening at all? Or are you arguing that it is outside your personal experience? Those are two different claims.
I would argue that just because your family doesn't kill and dispose of calves doesn't mean that it doesn't happen on other farms. When you're talking about larger dairy operations, feeding all the male calves to the dog isn't going to be feasible.3 -
France to ban culling of unwanted male chicks by end of 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
About seven billion male chicks - not wanted for meat or eggs - are killed around the world each year, usually in shredding machines or by gas.
I thought the above was interesting. I believe a similar practice happens with male dairy cows. It makes me curious, even if I buy step 5 animal welfare milk and eggs, does it mean only the living animals were treated well? Or does it also apply to how they treat the unwanted animals that don't produce dairy and eggs?
I saw this article. I have seen video footage of chicken and egg farmers throwing male chicks into the grinder alive. This is beyond cruel and why I stopped eating eggs.
4 -
France to ban culling of unwanted male chicks by end of 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
About seven billion male chicks - not wanted for meat or eggs - are killed around the world each year, usually in shredding machines or by gas.
I thought the above was interesting. I believe a similar practice happens with male dairy cows. It makes me curious, even if I buy step 5 animal welfare milk and eggs, does it mean only the living animals were treated well? Or does it also apply to how they treat the unwanted animals that don't produce dairy and eggs?
I saw this article. I have seen video footage of chicken and egg farmers throwing male chicks into the grinder alive. This is beyond cruel and why I stopped eating eggs.
What!!!? 😱 This is beyond disturbing! I have to look into this.
0 -
Your point about the ethics of overconsumption is really important. And it's not just about not eating way more than you need, although that's part of it. But also about limiting food waste and food packaging waste consistently. So here are my best, easy, realistic tips for reigning in consumption, which have the benefit of also saving money a lot of times:
1. Buy the option was less or more sustainable packaging when possible. Instead of buying the bagged potatoes, pick the loose potatoes. This also lets you control how many you buy. Buying in bulk only saves money if you actually use what you buy.
2. Bring your own container to the extent possible. Shopping bags, produce bags, containers for bulk items.
3. If you throw away a lot of food, try meal planning or freezing things to use later if they're about to go bad. The next time you go to make a shopping list, "shop your cupboards" first - try to use what you already have.
4. Bulk your meals with ingredients that are cheaper and more sustainable. This is also often healthier. Typically includes things like more veggies or more grains.
5. Save scraps of meats, veggies, and cheese rinds to make the best broth you've ever had.
These are just the top 5 tips that I've used the most, but I'm sure there are plenty of other great ideas.1 -
Safari_Gal_ wrote: »France to ban culling of unwanted male chicks by end of 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51301915
About seven billion male chicks - not wanted for meat or eggs - are killed around the world each year, usually in shredding machines or by gas.
I thought the above was interesting. I believe a similar practice happens with male dairy cows. It makes me curious, even if I buy step 5 animal welfare milk and eggs, does it mean only the living animals were treated well? Or does it also apply to how they treat the unwanted animals that don't produce dairy and eggs?
I saw this article. I have seen video footage of chicken and egg farmers throwing male chicks into the grinder alive. This is beyond cruel and why I stopped eating eggs.
What!!!? 😱 This is beyond disturbing! I have to look into this.
Yeah it broke my heart. I was buying pasture raised eggs before and while those egg laying hens may have a nice life on an open pasture, what happens to the male chickens? This is what happens. By eating eggs, I was supporting this so I had to stop entirely.
3 -
Farmer’s markets are seasonal where I live in the Midwest - only about 6 months out of the year. We shop when they are in season. We buy less meat but buy it strictly from local farmers - only eat meat 2-3x a week.
We get our milk from a local dairy farm in glass jars, the farm takes the empty jars back, sanitizes and reuses (0 waste). We also get our eggs local and return the empty carton to the farmer for reuse.
I shop grocery stores I try to stick in season produce. I use reusable shopping bags (including produce bags, and for bulk bins)
We grow our own tomatoes and I have an indoor herb garden in my kitchen. I’d like to grow more but we have a lot of rabbits in our yard.
I read somewhere that 40% of the waste in landfills is food waste (not sure if it’s true so don’t quote me on it) so we have started composting and we will use it in our yard and indoor plants.
In addition to buying sustainable food, we have a goal of eliminating single use plastic in our home in 2020.
I think it’s unrealistic that the entire world goes vegan but eating less meat and demanding it be from sources other than factory farming is important. I am a firm believer that e vote with how we spend our money.2 -
Ethical is a loaded word. I like loading it with cream cheese and bacon bits.3
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steviewonder128 wrote: »Your point about the ethics of overconsumption is really important. And it's not just about not eating way more than you need, although that's part of it. But also about limiting food waste and food packaging waste consistently. So here are my best, easy, realistic tips for reigning in consumption, which have the benefit of also saving money a lot of times:
1. Buy the option was less or more sustainable packaging when possible. Instead of buying the bagged potatoes, pick the loose potatoes. This also lets you control how many you buy. Buying in bulk only saves money if you actually use what you buy.
2. Bring your own container to the extent possible. Shopping bags, produce bags, containers for bulk items.
3. If you throw away a lot of food, try meal planning or freezing things to use later if they're about to go bad. The next time you go to make a shopping list, "shop your cupboards" first - try to use what you already have.
4. Bulk your meals with ingredients that are cheaper and more sustainable. This is also often healthier. Typically includes things like more veggies or more grains.
5. Save scraps of meats, veggies, and cheese rinds to make the best broth you've ever had.
These are just the top 5 tips that I've used the most, but I'm sure there are plenty of other great ideas.
6. Save bones in the freezer to make stock (which will be way tastier than store-bought.) I save various sized plastic containers, use these for freezer storage, and save stock in sizes from 1/4 C to 2 C.
7. Less than a serving size of meat and/or veggies might be nice in scrambled eggs or soup.
8. Compost! I have a spinning bin in my back yard and some communities compost. At one point, my state subsidized compost bins. That program is over, but apparently many municipalities still have them available and sell them at a discount. I had the Earth Machine where I lived last, but prefer the spinning one as it breaks down MUCH faster and spinning is so much easier than turning. https://www.mass.gov/composting-organics
My mother and grandfather had a Thing about food waste, and with good planning, what I compost wasn't edible but rather peels and skins and such.1 -
My personal opinion is that we need to try as hard as we can but I realize that someone is always going to get the short end of the stick. Whether it’s the animals being slaughtered or the people who can no longer afford their native food bc the demand has skyrocketed the price or the people who are made to pick the crop but aren’t being paid adequately or the bees who are dying due to almond milk production. It’s all very convoluted and everyone should just do their best. But IMO the least everyone can do is recycle and reuse.0
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Don't take this as an ego issue, but I am really puzzled with all the "Disagree's" in my entry point. I've tried to open an ethical debate about food consumption in the most open way I possibly could, trying to avoid separation on nutritional clans and just encourage thinking about what we can do within our diets (whether we are vegans, carnivores, paleo, vegetarians...) to make more sustainable and more human choices.
One of the things I found pretty basic was to give those animals at least a most natural environment for the length of their short or long, lives. Like, don't put them in small cages if you have acres of empty land.
If you can support smaller, multi-variety growth instead of large monoculture fields that require a lot of chemicals and seriously disrupt all life in the area, including humans (check for soya fields documentary in Paraguay). Another, also, pretty basic thing is to be mindful about food consumption and eating much more than we need.
I am really puzzled - what is there to disagree with?
Are we that much insensitive that we dislike even an idea of discussion about how can we survive and thrive and do so in the most ethical way possible?
Weird thing is that all those ethical things are actually in our favor. It's beneficial for us to eat free-range, grass-fed meat, veggies with fewer pesticides, and not to overeat.
To not end in the ranting tone, I really appreciate all tips shared!4 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »
My family buys male day old dairy calves to raise for meat. We often buy a few at a time and sell to friends as well. Farmers don’t waste or kill for nothing. These articles make it seem as if it is enjoyable. If we don’t take the calves the farmer can sell to other places that slaughter for various uses. Or if he shoots it himself it feeds his dogs for a few days. I see no problem with this. In our own farm if I have picked out a ewe who I feel is too old to breed/who is a poor mother we will butcher her and put the meat in the freezer labeled as dog food.
I grew up on a small family farm. When my parents had ducks, even though they haven't lived for a long time (few months), the time they were alive, they had the best life possible - they lived outside, on a big meadow with a small pool they've run to every morning.
When the time came, I did felt bad for them, but it was easier for me to accept the food chain when I knew they had a really cool life while they were alive.
On the other hand, when you turn a living being into industrial raw material as they do in the big tech meat companies, it's just so painfully heartless.3 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »
My family buys male day old dairy calves to raise for meat. We often buy a few at a time and sell to friends as well. Farmers don’t waste or kill for nothing. These articles make it seem as if it is enjoyable. If we don’t take the calves the farmer can sell to other places that slaughter for various uses. Or if he shoots it himself it feeds his dogs for a few days. I see no problem with this. In our own farm if I have picked out a ewe who I feel is too old to breed/who is a poor mother we will butcher her and put the meat in the freezer labeled as dog food.
I grew up on a small family farm. When my parents had ducks, even though they haven't lived for a long time (few months), the time they were alive, they had the best life possible - they lived outside, on a big meadow with a small pool they've run to every morning.
When the time came, I did felt bad for them, but it was easier for me to accept the food chain when I knew they had a really cool life while they were alive.
On the other hand, when you turn a living being into industrial raw material as they do in the big tech meat companies, it's just so painfully heartless.
If you're killing someone for food, you're turning them into raw material regardless of whether or not you allow them access to a pool beforehand or not. Is it the "industrial" part that is the specific issue? This is an attitude I've encountered before -- "Well, at least we're not like THEM," as if the act is transformed by a lower standard of efficiency or a smaller profit margin.
4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If you're killing someone for food, you're turning them into raw material regardless of whether or not you allow them access to a pool beforehand or not. Is it the "industrial" part that is the specific issue? This is an attitude I've encountered before -- "Well, at least we're not like THEM," as if the act is transformed by a lower standard of efficiency or a smaller profit margin.
Thank you for the feedback...although, I strongly disagree. Killing for food is in the very basic nature of the world we are born into. It is present in the numerous number of species and part of nature's balance. Even if you are a vegan, many living creatures are killed in order for you to be able to eat a piece of veggie.
Death is one moment in life. One of many moments.
But yet, depriving any being of the life it has been build for, by making them caged, depriving them of the most basic experiences like sun, or wind, or rain or grass...it's beyond cruel and it's a pretty new concept in nature.
2 -
Don't take this as an ego issue, but I am really puzzled with all the "Disagree's" in my entry point. I've tried to open an ethical debate about food consumption in the most open way I possibly could, trying to avoid separation on nutritional clans and just encourage thinking about what we can do within our diets (whether we are vegans, carnivores, paleo, vegetarians...) to make more sustainable and more human choices.
One of the things I found pretty basic was to give those animals at least a most natural environment for the length of their short or long, lives. Like, don't put them in small cages if you have acres of empty land.
If you can support smaller, multi-variety growth instead of large monoculture fields that require a lot of chemicals and seriously disrupt all life in the area, including humans (check for soya fields documentary in Paraguay). Another, also, pretty basic thing is to be mindful about food consumption and eating much more than we need.
I am really puzzled - what is there to disagree with?
Are we that much insensitive that we dislike even an idea of discussion about how can we survive and thrive and do so in the most ethical way possible?
Weird thing is that all those ethical things are actually in our favor. It's beneficial for us to eat free-range, grass-fed meat, veggies with fewer pesticides, and not to overeat.
To not end in the ranting tone, I really appreciate all tips shared!
I'm puzzled that you're puzzled.
It's been over a year since your OP. As I type this, you have 11 disagrees, an average of less than one a month. You also have 5 pages of replies, 89 total posts, some of them quite nuanced. I suspect at least some of the 11 disagrees were from people who never posted, aren't going to read your question from today. You posted about a controversial topic, and did so in an international online community, so there are going to be a huge range of experiences and opinions. It would be surprising to me if you post got very few disagrees, on a controversial topic, no matter what you said about the topic.
I've been here for a while, post/reply a lot. I have 786 total disagrees. (I have no idea whether I have any post with 11 disagrees, and don't much care.) I don't think you should worry about it, or care, anyway, especially in that you got some comments that disagree in some way with the OP, and there's no point in folks repeating what's already been said, so they may just click disagree.
I can speculate about reasons why people may've clicked "disagree", even though I personally didn't (and don't see why I would, though I did reply with what I think is a little skepticism about the concept in practice). I'm not saying I think any of the following are things you did wrong, or about which you're wrong, but some possibilities:
* Some people are going to expect a post/thread about eating and ethics to be a hotbed of virtue-signaling, and object to that whole idea being brought up.
* Some people think it's show-off-y to talk about one's own virtuous behavior.
* Thinking about ethics and eating in this way can be thought of as a luxury for developed world, relatively well off people. Even in the developed world, numerous people can't "eat free-range, grass-fed meat, veggies with fewer pesticides": Industrial production makes it possible for some to feed their families enough, if they're lucky.
* In connection with that last point, you mentioned zero in the OP that I saw about human famine, human undernutrition, food insufficiency or other inequities even in the first world, exploitation or abuse of human workers in the food production and delivery chain, or really anything that suggested that our lives vis a vis other people's lives may have any eating-related ethical considerations involved. (That one does seem odd to me, personally - though again, I didn't click "disagree". For example, I'm old enough to know that the "green revolution" (the old one, in food production!) which was very much about exploiting technology and industrialization, did, in certain places and times, play a significant role in reducing human starvation and undernutrition globally.)
* You're talking about ethics and animals, but you're not vegan or vegetarian, which will strike some people as disagreeable reasoning.
* Some of your choices of phrase seem quite un-nuanced ("veggies that are not grown in a very artificial way with lots of chemistry that kills everything around" seems to ignore valid debate about impacts of certain organic farming methods (Bt comes to mind, for example)); others seem naive (much of the food waste is in the supply chain vs. in people's homes; those sheep that need to be shaved every summer to stay cool wouldn't need to be shaved in such numbers if people didn't breed and manage them industrially in order to shave them every summer to sell that wool, and then maybe eat them once they're too old - though IMU younger animals are preferable for meat consumption - but I'm not very familiar with that because little mutton is eaten in the US.).
* Why just eating-related ethics?
And so forth. (But still, who cares?)
Again, it's not that I think those things (except where I've commented in this post that I do). I replied with my thoughts on the core subject, earlier in the thread. I thought it was a reasonable thing to post about, though controversial, and though I'm personally uncomfortable with it (reasons stated in my initial reply on the thread) and even though I found some the replies a little bit far out there in any/all directions.
Really, don't worry about the disagrees. You got more "inspirings" and "likes" than "disagrees" (though narrowly), and you got a high level of engagement in debate. The people who disagreed, and didn't say why, and didn't click just because someone else had stated a similar position, aren't worth worrying about. In that narrow set of cases, it's an emotional reaction from someone who doesn't know how to use their words productively. Ignore 'em.
Keep thinking, keep learning, keep posting. 🙂8
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