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Thoughts on Beyond Burger and other fake meat
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I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
She offers cancer treatment as a service on her website. Interesting that an RD is moonlighting as an oncologist.
"With food-as-medicine approaches, we can aggressively fight tumor growth" followed by this "Food-as-medicine tip": "Try sauteeing broccoli with garlic."
Now I am a huge broccoli fan, but even I think that's promising a bit too much.
https://www.alimillerrd.com/treatments/cancer/
I'm skeptical about the benefits of a lifestyle where you hardly ever exercise. What's aspirational about avoiding physical activity? With my diet which includes *gasp* the occasional Beyond Burger, I actually look forward to exercise and do it frequently. Inflammation, bloating, and skin issues . . . lots of people don't have those (although I'm glad that yours are gone). So if you asked me to choose between my current life with bread and running and skin that's pretty darn good and some "primal" life where I have to believe that broccoli is a cancer treatment . . . well, I've already chosen.16 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »magnusthenerd wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »i understand what you all are saying but I can't really agree with it.
i wouldn't wear fake leather or fake fur either if i were a vegan but whatever if it works for you.
What do you mean by 'I can't agree with it'? You think we're wrong about our own tastes, reasons and decisions?
i'm saying your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. but again, whatever works for you
If you were vegan would you quit: eating jello, using shampoo and conditioners, using paintbrushes, doing your makeup, and many other products just because they usually contain non-vegan ingredients? Using a synthetic paint brush should not really be an issue for a vegan, but you're saying it should. How does that make sense?
Yes, you explained well why mbaker's argument is one that I don't so much disagree with, but just don't follow at all. Or why would the same argument not mean that vegans should avoid soy milk, as that is largely used because it somewhat shares the taste and mouthfeel and use of milk, and also has a similar protein content?
I think kimny's answer helped me somewhat -- the line of thought must be that someone eating a plant-based product intended to taste like beef is mimicking the experience of "eating cow." Instead, I think they are enjoying an experience of eating a tasty food that is usually (but not necessarily) made from beef. And I would add that I don't think most meat eaters enjoy a burger because it is the experience of "eating cow." I think they mostly don't think much about where the food comes from and unless they are specifically eating food they hunted for themselves aren't likely to be thinking about the animal much at all, more the taste. They simply are okay with that taste (and the nutrients it comes with) being provided by the animal.
If that's the contention, I extremely don't get it. Would a person who was raised vegan be okay, then, to eat beyond burgers, but someone that knows eating cows is doing something wrong having one? If not, the argument seems like there's an assumed spiritual component to veganism? Pretty sure nonspiritual veganism exists.
This is such an interesting observation. If the "wrongness" of a vegan eating a meat substitute comes from experiencing the similarity to animal-based meat, then a vegan who is unable to appreciate the similarity wouldn't be doing anything "wrong."
However, if the wrongness comes from *others* observing the behavior, then it would only be wrong if those observing you recognized that it was similar to meat. By this standard, any vegan eating any kind of ambigious or potentially misclassified food is doing something wrong.
If I go to Whole Foods and buy a vegan chocolate chip cookie and then walk down the street eating it, someone I pass may see me and assume it is a standard cookie. I have now transgressed as I am *appearing* to engage in the behavior of consuming animal products. This expectation would result in most vegans consuming food privately unless it is clearly labelled or obviously a non-animal product.
So level 5 vegans eat nothing that cast a shadow, but level 6 vegans eat everything in shadows?
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janejellyroll wrote: »I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
She offers cancer treatment as a service on her website. Interesting that an RD is moonlighting as an oncologist.
"With food-as-medicine approaches, we can aggressively fight tumor growth" followed by this "Food-as-medicine tip": "Try sauteeing broccoli with garlic."
Now I am a huge broccoli fan, but even I think that's promising a bit too much.
https://www.alimillerrd.com/treatments/cancer/
I'm skeptical about the benefits of a lifestyle where you hardly ever exercise. What's aspirational about avoiding physical activity? With my diet which includes *gasp* the occasional Beyond Burger, I actually look forward to exercise and do it frequently. Inflammation, bloating, and skin issues . . . lots of people don't have those (although I'm glad that yours are gone). So if you asked me to choose between my current life with bread and running and skin that's pretty darn good and some "primal" life where I have to believe that broccoli is a cancer treatment . . . well, I've already chosen.
Particularly from someone touting the benefits of a 'primal' lifestyle...magnusthenerd wrote: »I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
Rarely have I found a post I disagree with so much, and yet felt so little interest in bothering with presenting counter factuals.
At most I feel like just bring up the cliched life expectancy of our primal ancestors as died at the ripe old age of found a delicious spot of tuberculosis infected carrion.
Yep, me too.2 -
The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers.
Why is less processed always better? These kinds of rules make no sense to me, don't seem related to the real research about the alleged problems with processed foods (the last study we discussed here was reported as about processed foods when it was really about foods high in sat fat and added sugar), and if adopted by me would actually make following a nutrient-dense and healthy diet more difficult because I tend to get hung up on rules and take them very seriously.
For one example, recently I've been really enjoying smoothies for breakfast. They are pretty lightly processed (but for the processing I do to them) -- normally I add zucchini (or fennel or cucumber), lots of frozen kale and/or spinach, some frozen strawberries or blueberries, some other kind of fruit sometimes (half a banana, peaches, raspberries), half an avocado, some white beans (or sometimes tofu), and some nuts or nutbutter and/or seeds.
The cals add up easily, but they are huge and filling and (to my taste) delicious and take a while to drink and work in my day. The nutrition is amazing (I log at Cron) and protein pretty comparable to whatever I would otherwise eat. One thing I sometimes do is substitute peanut powder (nothing added) instead of nutbutter or nuts (nothing added to the nutbutter but salt). Based on your claim, using peanut powder instead of peanuts is ALWAYS worse, because the powdered peanuts are more processed. But for me it can be better, since they add more protein for fewer cals, and clearly I have plenty of fat anyway.
Similarly, the argument would suggest that using tofu instead of white beans is always worse, that using canned beans instead of ones I bought dry and cooked is always worse, and I suppose even that using frozen fruit and greens is worse than if I bought them fresh (or "fresh" this time of year).
Respectfully, why?
Similarly, I love cottage cheese and find it an easy way to increase my protein. Why is this worse than less processed options? I could make greek yogurt myself, but typically prefer to buy it ready made (no ingredients but milk and the culture) -- why is this less good?
Moving on to even more processed foods, why are the Engine2 white bean and kale frozen patties I mentioned upthread worse (other than the exorbitant price, which doesn't bother me for an occasional thing) worse than making my own white bean patty?
Why is eating a food like bread or pasta or pasta made from black beans (I have some that is very high fiber and protein) inherently bad or, say, worse than eating a potato (in that potatoes are less processed)? I like potatoes and eat them, but sometimes you like a variety of starch options and different ones go with different other foods (and let's stipulate that the resulting meals are all quite nutrient dense and calorie appropriate)?
Oh, and assuming a reasonably healthy diet and that one is a good weight, exercise is MUCH more important for health than the minor differences between one diet and another. Certainly much more important than cutting out all processed foods (for which I still see no benefit at all).8 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »
This makes perfect sense. Thanks!3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Does that mean this thread is becoming reprocessed, and thus absolutely must be becoming worse for health?12 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Does that mean this thread is becoming reprocessed, and thus absolutely must be becoming worse for health?
Only if Reader's Digest is wrong about laughter being the best medicine.9 -
I have no idea how to directly respond to people on here but to the comment above, I hardly exercised because I did not have the time between work full time and school. Cancelled my gym membership & just spent time outside walking a few times a week to get some cardio in.
Before that I spent 2 years working out religiously while trying to "eat healthy" but ate way too much processed food. I saw noooo results until I changed my diet to mostly Whole Foods. I think it's an 80/20 concept here2 -
I have no idea how to directly respond to people on here but to the comment above, I hardly exercised because I did not have the time between work full time and school. Cancelled my gym membership & just spent time outside walking a few times a week to get some cardio in.
Before that I spent 2 years working out religiously while trying to "eat healthy" but ate way too much processed food. I saw noooo results until I changed my diet to mostly Whole Foods. I think it's an 80/20 concept here
You saw results because you created a calorie deficit when you switched to more whole foods.12 -
I was using my MFP my calories were literally the same lol.Nony_Mouse wrote: »
You saw results because you created a calorie deficit when you switched to more whole foods.
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I was using my MFP my calories were literally the same lol.Nony_Mouse wrote: »
You saw results because you created a calorie deficit when you switched to more whole foods.
But that's not how the body works. What is far more likely is that you were subconsciously more compliant or found it easier to log accurately while eating whole foods. Or you weren't burning nearly as many calories as you thought when you were working out hard, and were burning more calories than you realized through your normal day to day activity when you were too busy to work out
There is no scientifically verifiable reason why "processing" food would stop weight loss when calories are equal. And there are myriad examples of people who ate processed food and lost weight, myself included.
Having said that, eating more whole foods is a positive for someone trying to lose weight as it can often improve satiety and make calorie control easier. Regardless of the reasons why, congrats on finding a way that helped you succeed!12 -
Before that I spent 2 years working out religiously while trying to "eat healthy" but ate way too much processed food. I saw noooo results until I changed my diet to mostly Whole Foods. I think it's an 80/20 concept here
I occasionally shop at WF (joke!), but in fact I do eat mostly from whole foods (which I cook, of course). I also eat at restaurants, buy processed items (mostly minimally processed), and try not to overstress about it. As I discussed above, I don't think there is any support for a claim that less processed is always better, and I gave a few examples of products to demonstrate that.
Today I didn't plan well and bought soup (turkey chili) from Pret a Manger. Other than it being more expensive and higher sodium than the chili I would have made at home, it fit my needs, and was much better than not eating or doing what I would have needed to do to make sure I had something homemade after stuff came up that messed up my plans. Nutritionally, my day was as good as any, and so were my cals. So I don't see why even that (ultraprocessed? I guess) option was bad. I prefer homemade food and also prefer saving the cash, but eh, that's not about nutrition.
More significantly, I did go through a phase where I was obsessed with eating only "natural" food (i.e., whole foods, as I understood it). I managed to gain weight (for other reasons, but not prevented by my food preferences) when doing that. At some point I started reading books about locavorism and almost decided to do that, since I knew the restrictions would make me have to eat less (I live in Chicago, the truly local choices a good bit of the year aren't great, which was one reason why I didn't), and in any case it would have made everything so much more difficult which was the point, but it was stupid. Plus, I wasn't giving up all chocolate and coffee, so there's that.
Anyway, I actually loosened up quite a bit when using MFP (I still like mostly cooking from whole foods, but that's because it's how I like to eat) and I no longer stressed about relying on something that might be a convenience or make cutting cals a bit easier or be tasty even if not 100% homemade (I try various spicy sauces, for example, and buy kimchi and sauerkraut although I could make them, and the greek yogurt mentioned before). I also experimented with protein powder and protein bars (didn't end up liking any of them much), and actually ate ice cream quite regularly when losing weight (and ate at restaurants about once a week, since we have lots of good restaurants and I enjoy them).
Despite all this, I lost weight easily, at the amounts MFP predicted or more. I did so in weeks when I exercised and weeks when I did not (I did more than not because I think it's important but sometimes life happens, I know). I did so in weeks when I ate more processed foods than normal and when I ate less. That's because it's about cals. I do think a healthy diet is important (for health), but I think mine was more healthy in reality when I got over my serious hangups, which is why I always do post about this. I realize not everyone who goes on a "no processed" kick is as extreme as I was for a while, or beat themselves up over foods they ate (many seem to have a weird understanding of what "processed" even means), but because I did and I think others do sometimes too, I like to challenge the notion that processed = bad (or even necessarily not as good). Sometimes more processed can even fit needs better.5 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Does that mean this thread is becoming reprocessed, and thus absolutely must be becoming worse for health?
100%1 -
“If it came from a plant, eat it; if it was made in a plant, don't. ”
― Michael Pollan1 -
Do NOT come between me and my Greek yogurt!8
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I was using my MFP my calories were literally the same lol.Nony_Mouse wrote: »
You saw results because you created a calorie deficit when you switched to more whole foods.
If your calories were "literally the same" when you were working out religiously and when you weren't and you lost weight during one of those periods, then something is wrong with how you were estimating your calorie intake.
What you're arguing is that energy use is irrelevant. That may fly in the "broccoli is a cancer treatment" community, but it doesn't match what we know about how the human body actually works.8 -
“If it came from a plant, eat it; if it was made in a plant, don't. ”
― Michael Pollan
If I was in the wild, I think I'd be much better off if I had some granola and bottled water than I would be just grabbing plants and chowing down.
Michael Pollan has written some insightful stuff over the years, but this is asinine.6 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Do NOT come between me and my Greek yogurt!
Me too although I am back to regular yogurt I make myself. Not because I think it is healthier (after all, I am using store bought milk) but I eat so much it is cheaper ($2.50 per gallon as opposed to $10 per gallon for yogurt). I use Greek for the starter since I love the taste, but I don't have the patience to strain it like Greek needs to be.2 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Do NOT come between me and my Greek yogurt!
Me too although I am back to regular yogurt I make myself. Not because I think it is healthier (after all, I am using store bought milk) but I eat so much it is cheaper ($2.50 per gallon as opposed to $10 per gallon for yogurt). I use Greek for the starter since I love the taste, but I don't have the patience to strain it like Greek needs to be.
I might try that sometime. I do make my own sorbets and granitas, though.0 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »Do NOT come between me and my Greek yogurt!
Me too although I am back to regular yogurt I make myself. Not because I think it is healthier (after all, I am using store bought milk) but I eat so much it is cheaper ($2.50 per gallon as opposed to $10 per gallon for yogurt). I use Greek for the starter since I love the taste, but I don't have the patience to strain it like Greek needs to be.
I might try that sometime. I do make my own sorbets and granitas, though.
It is super easy but you need a way to keep it at 110° for about 8-18 hours. I have a yogurt maker that makes 1/2 gallon at a time. Heat the milk to 180°, cool to 110°, add some yogurt with active cultures, let sit. Chill and eat. There are starters you can get that give different flavors and textures but I like using Greek yogurt, then use some of the last batch to re-culture the next one. I can keep a strain going for about 5 gallons (10 batches) before it needs refreshing.3 -
I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
I also lost around 22 pounds (10 kg) and have kept it off for 6 years.
I ate plenty of processed food along with some fresh whole foods. Certainly did not eliminate anything other than full sugar soda, and that was swapped to diet soda so not a less processed thing, just a less calorie thing.
did a small amount of exercise (walking half an hour most days and occasional more vigourous activity) - by no means an excersice regime worth writing home about)
I had no bloating, skin issues or inflamation.
I don't want my taste buds to change - I enjoy the foods I like, why would I want to change that??
No need to change how I view my food or get any 'hard truths'
I feel you are making things more complicated - I simply * gasp!* ate at an appropriate calorie level and ate a half decent balance of macros/variety of foods
That's all.
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janejellyroll wrote: »I feel like we make everything complicated in this country. The BEST diet for you (unless you have very specific health concerns that REQUIRE you to eliminate certain foods) are a REAL, WHOLE FOODS DIET. The less processed the better... that goes for everything including food substitutes like the beyond meat burgers. Getting back to our basics- fruit, vegetables, and proteins consisting of fish, meat, poultry is what's needed. It's that simple. I lost 20 lbs 2 years ago before I was pregnant. Hardly ever exercised... literally just eliminated almost anything processed from my diet including *gasp* breads and vegetable oils, unless it was a special occasion that I felt I wanted to eat something at a restaurant or what have you. Didn't feel deprived. Didn't have to count macros. My taste buds literally changed. Inflammation went down, bloating gone, skin issues gone. It was eye opening. I switched to wild caught fish, grassfed or pasture raised meats. You literally cannot go wrong getting back to our primal, basics. If you want some hard truth on a lot of these issues I love the approach from integrative dietician Ali Miller, RD. It will change how you view our food.
She offers cancer treatment as a service on her website. Interesting that an RD is moonlighting as an oncologist.
"With food-as-medicine approaches, we can aggressively fight tumor growth" followed by this "Food-as-medicine tip": "Try sauteeing broccoli with garlic."
Now I am a huge broccoli fan, but even I think that's promising a bit too much.
https://www.alimillerrd.com/treatments/cancer/
I'm skeptical about the benefits of a lifestyle where you hardly ever exercise. What's aspirational about avoiding physical activity? With my diet which includes *gasp* the occasional Beyond Burger, I actually look forward to exercise and do it frequently. Inflammation, bloating, and skin issues . . . lots of people don't have those (although I'm glad that yours are gone). So if you asked me to choose between my current life with bread and running and skin that's pretty darn good and some "primal" life where I have to believe that broccoli is a cancer treatment . . . well, I've already chosen.
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In the spirit of today, an article on the subject of whether or not faux meat products are appropriate if one is avoiding meat for Lent: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-beyond-impossible-burger-fake-meat-lent-20200225-ldbyyq74lzadzgmiqhcdaqmuo4-story.html1
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janejellyroll wrote: »In the spirit of today, an article on the subject of whether or not faux meat products are appropriate if one is avoiding meat for Lent: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-beyond-impossible-burger-fake-meat-lent-20200225-ldbyyq74lzadzgmiqhcdaqmuo4-story.html
Interesting. On the Jewish calendar, there is a nine-day period when many Orthodox Jews refrain from eating meat and poultry (but not fish and there are a couple of loopholes). As an ovo-lacto vegetarian, I asked if I should adopt a more stringent practice at that time like a vegan WOE. I was told that it wasn't necessary. Basically, the custom was to refrain from meat and poultry specifically during those days and whether I normally refrained from them the rest of the year wasn't relevant.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the spirit of today, an article on the subject of whether or not faux meat products are appropriate if one is avoiding meat for Lent: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-beyond-impossible-burger-fake-meat-lent-20200225-ldbyyq74lzadzgmiqhcdaqmuo4-story.html
Heh, I read the Trib and thought about linking that.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the spirit of today, an article on the subject of whether or not faux meat products are appropriate if one is avoiding meat for Lent: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-beyond-impossible-burger-fake-meat-lent-20200225-ldbyyq74lzadzgmiqhcdaqmuo4-story.html
Interesting. I think it really does depend on "why" you observe Lent or any other religious or spiritual fasting convention. Kind of a "letter of the law" vs "spirit of the law" sort of thing.4
This discussion has been closed.
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