How do you deal with the fear?

Yeah, like Ann says (and Psychod) there are so many variables. They can't all be pinned down, so I doubt "science" is going to come up with a better answer than, "Log your food. Use a digital food scale. Prepare 90% of your own meals. Take a damn walk. Get eight hours of sleep. Drink a lot of water. Keep stress low. Step on the body weight scale and adjust accordingly. Repeat forever. "

:drinker: Ta da.

I mean, that's really the bottom line. Calories, keeping some sort of measurements and being consistent over TIME.

PAV8888 wrote: »

Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.

Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.

I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.

The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.

Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!

In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.

Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!

This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!

I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!

To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.

The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals. Even if my personal reality was a low TDEE, all of those things still apply.

For all I know, I have hundreds of calories of adaptive thermogenesis (despite the mysteriously high TDEE). It still doesn't matter, and I still don't care. All I need to care about is my personal calorie goals, and figuring out how to work with them as happily and healthfully as possible, whether they're high, low, or right on the population average.

The "high TDEE" cases aren't to invalidate the possibility of adaptive thermogenesis, they're to illustrate one reason that it's not worth worrying about speculatively, in advance: Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.

psychod787 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

PAV8888 wrote: »

Since the android app ate my homework, I will just address a comment about AT being disproved because a person is eating above average calories to maintain.

Eating above average calories to maintain doesn't prove or disprove whether you, as an individual, have lost some calories to AT. For all you know you could have been maintaining at + or -10% (or whatever figure) more than what you are maintaining at today.

I will also address another issue which used to really concern me six years ago; but which is no longer a concern.

The fact that there exists some AT does not mean that you're ACTUALLY going to be PHYSICALLY HUNGRY for the "lost" amount of calories.

Do you consume the same amount of food when you spend the day sedentary, puttering around the house, or when you're super active, going for a 5 hour hike around the lake? Of course not. Right? Either hunger or simple MFP math tell you to eat more to fuel that hike: because you've spent Calories in order to perform it!

In my case, I have reasons to suspect a 2.5-3.5% of my TDEE AT which very closely brackets the 80 Cal mentioned by @psychod787. This has persisted a good 5 years post rapid weight loss. BUT, somewhere during the 24 to 28 month post rapid weight loss time period (discussed above as a probable time period during which hormones normalize) there was a marked improvement in my perception of how easy it was to stay within my caloric budget.

Let me repeat that: if you survive the initial post weight loss adjustment period (the first "two" years where most of us lose the battle), having some AT doesn't mean that you're spending your whole day hungry for lost calories! It does NOT feel like you're in a permanent 80 Cal deficit. It just feels like normal maintenance because your body is NOT ACTUALLY USING these calories in the first place!

This, of course, does not address "brain hamster issues" given that appetite and desire to eat are not always exact reflections of physical hunger!

I also note that the restoration of AT to normalcy often observed with full regain + a bit, is probably counterproductive!

To the bolded: Of course not. But that's not the point.

The point was: If I wasted a bunch of time worrying about the calories I might have lost to (theoretical) adaptive thermogenesis (or age, hypothyroidism, or any other thing), it would've accomplished nothing positive. If that worry (or sense of AT doom) overtook me before I figured out my personal TDEE was mysteriously but delightfully high, it would've (1) made me feel negative (anxious, stressed) for large stretches of time, completely optionally; (2) possibly have prevented me from doing the productive work to understand actual practical reality; and (3) maybe made me give up entirely before I reached my goals. Even if my personal reality was a low TDEE, all of those things still apply.

For all I know, I have hundreds of calories of adaptive thermogenesis (despite the mysteriously high TDEE). It still doesn't matter, and I still don't care. All I need to care about is my personal calorie goals, and figuring out how to work with them as happily and healthfully as possible, whether they're high, low, or right on the population average.

The "high TDEE" cases aren't to invalidate the possibility of adaptive thermogenesis, they're to illustrate one reason that it's not worth worrying about speculatively, in advance: Only your personal, practical case is worth time & energy. Worrying about things we can't influence/control is time and energy (and happiness) wasted.

@AnnPT77 aunt granny. How is the holy hell do I manage to open a can of worms everytime I post? 🤣 God forbid I mention set point theory or Dr.Jason Fun... nope... nope....not saying his name!
While I agree with everything you have said, i think there are twot ypes of peopl when it comes to issues like. Some are ok with... yep it works..... then there are folks like me and @PAV8888 , we like to see what makes things tick...

Oh, I'm fascinated by how it works. Learning about it is fun, and potentially useful.

But IMO OP is getting bogged down in stressing over fear of regain, the idea that science can't say how long AT lasts, over "lots of depressing articles about how few people keep weight off, "metabolic adaption", microbiome changes associated with obesity, and all that stuff."

That stuff is academically interesting, some of it can be useful.

But fear, worry, annoyance, stress over it? Not helpful. The practical part one needs for base success is pretty simple. One maintains by understanding (within a certain error tolerance) how much to eat for one's own personal body's needs, and adjusts by watching the scale (or the fit of a particular pair of jeans or something).

To say "Worrying about things we can't influence/control is a waste of time and energy" is not the same as saying "Learning about - and considering whether one can apply - research and theory is a waste of time and energy."

It's the stress, the fear, the worry that's optional, completely unnecessary and unhelpful; not the liking or wanting to know how stuff works.

sofrances wrote: »

I haven't yet reached my maintenance goal, but I'm having serious anxiety issues related to fear of putting the weight back on. Partly this is because I fear the health consequences of doing so (weight loss is not primarily about looks for me at this stage in my life, although I'll take looking better as a bonus ). Partly because I have read lots of depressing articles about how few people keep weight off, "metabolic adaption", microbiome changes associated with obesity, and all that stuff. Also because I lost all the weight once before, but then watched it creep back on over the years until I was heavier than ever (although I was never doing proper calorie counting at that point).

How do you deal with the fear?

You're speaking of fear of failure. When failure happens, it should be a learning experience. So if the weight crept back up, it's because you neglected to be consistent. It's then really an easy fix. Be consistent. If you do that, you shouldn't have to fear weight regain.


A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

sofrances wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

Worry, worry, worry. Annoyance, stress, sense of unfairness, anxiety, resentment. It accomplishes nothing, it makes me feel bad, it doesn't make me more successful.

Why waste my energy doing it? Worry, stress, anxiety don't improve anything. I'm far better off focusing my energy on what it takes for me, personally, to be satiated and happy with life at my experientially-determined calorie need. Everything else is a waste of my time and energy.

Thanks @AnnPT77. That's the sort of stern talking to I needed.

I think part of the problem - and I think this might be common to lots of people - is that this process has taught me to distrust my own capacity for self-reassurance. For years, my capacity for self-reassurance was an enemy, not a friend. "You're not that fat", "At least you're not as fat as that guy", "You're just well built", "One more won't hurt", "You can start a diet on Monday" etc. On and on, very comfortable and reassured, very happy, and all the while ruining my health and getting bigger than I would have ever thought possible.

So although worrying is pointless, it almost feels safer than being reassured.

I can't be the only one who has felt that, can I?

(I probably need therapy )

Therapy is a wonderful thing, like other useful tools to improve life (physical therapy, medical exams (and treatments when needed), dietitians, personal trainers, etc.). It should have no more stigma than any of those, if we choose to seek help with our not-yet-ideal thought patterns. Nowadays, there are phone or video versions, even. Much can be achieved in a few sessions of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, say.

Beyond that, about the self-trust and self-reassurance: I can understand that. (Hey, I was obese for 30+ years!)

An advantage you have in this case, if you choose to take advantage of it: You can treat weight management, nutrition, even fitness to a certain extent, like a fun science fair project for grown-ups. Base what you do on data.

* Set a goal weight (in conjunction with your doctor, if you're uncertain).

* Learn about your personal daily fluctuation range, and set a maintenance range accordingly, low and high weights. (A weight trending app can be a help in this.) You don't want to set an upper limit that you will bounce over frequently with normal water-retention changes; you want the range to encompass normal fluctuation so there aren't constant freak-out triggers. You may even want a rule that says something like "intervene if over the top end for 3 days continuously" or something - especially if your range is smaller.

* If you want to keep calorie counting, you can do that, or you can use some other eating-management strategy (I think some have been discussed in the thread, but you can always look at threads here to see what others do, and figure out what will work for you).

* Manage your activity level. Set an enjoyable, manageable schedule of activity ("exercise"), and keep it consistent. Numbers: 3 times a week cardio, 2 times a week strength (for example - use numbers that work for you).

* Watch your scale weight, and adjust your eating. Recognize that if something changes (drive to work instead of walking to the bus stop,say), it might have an effect, and watch your data. Have a plan, mostly stick with it, change it on an intentional basis. (But an occasional deviation because of circumstances is no big deal - a droplet in the sea of your routine.)

Self-reassurance need not be the guide, or the flaw. Use the data. On the psychological side, doing that with some consistency will build confidence in your own abilities, as a plus. None of this need be obsessive. Give it an amount of time daily or weekly, to do the processes that are essential, and keep it in that cubbyhole. It doesn't need more brain-share than it gets in the time it takes to do the necessary tasks. (Think about dental health: Betting you brush your teeth daily, possibly floss, maybe get a hygienist cleaning and dentist exam every 6 months or so, deal with any exceptional problem (broken tooth?) as the exception it is . . . but you probably don't spend much energy or emotion on dental health. It's routine. Bodyweight can be a routine, mostly, too.)

An important fact to understand is that very quick large weight changes are almost certainly water weight and/or temporary digestive tract contents. You have to eat roughly 3500 calories over maintenance to gain a pound of fat (or move less, by the same extent). If 2 pounds suddenly shows up on the scale, and you didn't eat more or move less by 7000 calories in the last few days, it can't be fat, it has to be water/digestive waste.

Actual regain tends to be slow creep, not sudden jumps. While that makes self-delusion easier, sticking with your maintenance range is the counter-measure. Intervene when you start to hover at/above the top end. Base it on data, not "feelings".

Understand: I'm not deprecating emotions as an important thing in life, in many ways. But right now, managing those seems to be part of your personal struggle toward continuously improving health and happiness.

You're doing a great job with the self-insights and information-seeking. You can do this, you can be one of the long-term bodyweight success stories. And you can prove that to yourself: Just do the practical, concrete things that need to be done, with reasonable consistency.

Wishing you all the best!

suzesvelte wrote: »

sofrances wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

Why wasn't it important enough to you to do something about it?

I didn't want to calorie count. It seemed like an unnatural way to live your life, I resented having to do it when other people didn't seem to have to.

See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.

MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.

Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!

Endorsed.

For me, one of the benefits of having a wide range of good friends** is seeing this pretty graphically. Some of my friends - folks around them would say - are "naturally thin". They've always been a reasonably healthy weight (all the way up into 60s/70s now in some cases). They don't calorie count or necessarily do anything quite that explicit, but they have different habits that help them maintain their weight. For example, some I know will cut back on snacks and such if their waistband starts getting a little snug, or they tend to fall in with the bird-like lunch habits of their always-dieting co-workers out of social solidarity, among other things. For sure, it isn't magical. They may not calorie count, but they have weight-management strategies.

** I hang out with groups of on-water rowers, and groups of artists. It isn't universal in either group, but the active people are more likely to be managing their weight, and the artists are more likely not to be. And, speaking as someone who was athletically active with the rowers for over a decade while staying obese despite that, the difference is not simply exercise - no matter what some not-so-active people may believe.

suzesvelte wrote: »

sofrances wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

Why wasn't it important enough to you to do something about it?

I didn't want to calorie count. It seemed like an unnatural way to live your life, I resented having to do it when other people didn't seem to have to.

See - this is where you are wrong - and you do yourself a disservice by thinking "it's not fair!" ... because everyone who is skinny/slim pays some attention to maintaining that. They may not have the same struggle and it might be easier for some ppl than others, but we live surrounded by excess food in the modern world. Literally no-one stays slim without being aware of their own in/out balance of calories, even if they don't count them like you do they will be doing some maths and making some alterations on a daily/ weekly basis to make sure they stay around their happy weight. Things like doing an extra aero class cos they're having a special night out or accepting a slice of birthday cake at work but skipping their evening meal to compensate for it.

MFP is for life, if we want to make it stick, cos if our own ability to balance our in/out tally isn't quite good enough we need this for support and encouragement.

Personally I have never got to my goal but I have foudn MFP a great tool to encourage the awareness I need to drop the pounds I gained and keep trying to that goal weight!

It is a matter of perspective.

I count (pun intended) myself lucky that I now know how to log my food correctly and I have used this and other knowledge to change my life for the better.

People that do not yet possess this knowledge who currently maintain at a healthy weight are at risk of gaining or losing if something changes in their activity or food circumstance and they do not adapt. I have known many people who were at or close to a healthy weight that experienced the "middle age spread" and most have not been able to get it back off yet.

So is it fair that I am at less risk if I continue doing it and they are? Or is it unfair that I have to count my calories and they do not?