Of refeeds and diet breaks

@PAV8888
I started at 375 lbs in January 2017 and lost right over 100 lbs that year. I had stalled out by December 2017, and then slowly regained that 25 lbs over the next 18 months. Its like whatever switch kicked on slowly switched back off, coupled with moving and remodeling at the end of 2017 and being back home near the family. And I began slacking on weighing and measuring, estimating things, letting myself slip back into getting half cut teas, a little here, a little there, and just over all not being able to stick to my deficit for that 18 month period. Or thinking I was in deficit but being sloppy in weighing and measuring and thus wasn't really.

I finally was able to get myself to losing again, but that 6 month period at the end of 2019 was a battle. Then for no reason I can discern, at the beginning of 2020, the battle eased and I've been able to stick to my ~1000 calorie deficit with little trouble for the last 3 months. I can't figure out what kicks that switch on and off at all.

So I am currently sitting at 259.8 lbs. I'm 5'8" with a definitely larger frame, and BMI charts say the upper end of my healthy weight range is around 160 lbs. I don't expect to actually lose the next 100 lbs, but my pipe dream would be to get at least 80 of it off and be decently below 200 lbs. I'm currently set at 1450 calories as my deficit, which is roughly 60 calories more than what MFP says I should be at for 2 lbs/wk. I've added in activity, trying to get at least a 30 minute walk daily and get over 5,000 steps in, but I'm still setting myself at sedentary because a large chunk of that 5,000 steps is the actual walk itself. I add back in about 1/4 - 1/3 of those calories. I know that I've hit the bottom of how many calories I can actually cut and stay satiated - I'm not going to be able to drop below 1400, which is why I've started adding in the activity, even if its just walking; that buys me a few more calories per day, especially as I lose and the deficit shrinks.

Right now, I'm tolerating the deficit and activity increase fine. I'm on a roll when it comes to the self control; I'm not having cravings, and even when I find myself wanting something, I can either successfully tell myself no (such as a half cut tea over a unsweet one) or I successfully moderate the portion size or adapt it to lower the calories (taking the top bun and the cheese off the turkey slider at Arby's). I've been able to successfully stay under my deficit or deficit + exercise calories just about every day of the last 3 months. My energy levels are what they've always been, and I've been tolerating the increased activity well.

Yup, I'm down 115 lbs from my highest weight, which is about 10 lbs lower than the lowest I hit before I started gaining again. No, I haven't had any refeed days since Christmas.

Everything I've read has seemed to indicate that I"m still in the range for the 2 lbs/week rate to be safe (I thought it was no more than 1% of your body weight to be safe), so I hadn't considered changing that yet. I had considered just doing maintenance + activity during the vacation period (I'll be doing a lot of hiking that week), but was concerned that going another 2 months would be too long before taking a break.

This weekend is actually a very good set up for doing a refeed - my birthday is Sunday and mom's planning a dinner on Saturday To get this straight - a refeed is just eating at maintenance for 1 to 2 days, right? As opposed to the diet break which is maintenance for 1 to 2 weeks?

I wasn't really looking at the diet break as something to test for maintenance but more for the hormonal benefits that the post at the beginning of this thread stated. I've never done diet breaks in the past, and I've wondered if that might be part of the reason why I tended to stall out. I lost 90 lbs in about 8 months in 2012, then stalled and regained most of that over the next 4 years. I then lost a little over 100 lbs in 2017, stalled after about 8 months, and slowly regained 30 lbs. Better results, definitely, but I'd like to figure out what keeps flipping that switch to off and looking for ways to stop that or at least extend the loss periods.

At the same time, I admit I'm a little afraid to eat at maintenance for a week or two because I'm very much afraid I wouldn't be able to go back into deficit at the end - I'm of a if its working don't mess with it mentality. However, I'd also like to try to avoid the mistakes of the past and do this better this time around.

Ah, OK. My bad. I was thinking of the break as more extensive!

So re-feeds are one or two day events of eating at maintenance with carbs prioritized to get the most benefit.

I would often take the opportunity to engage in a re-feed when eating out with friends or in conjunction with various social events. I would not necessarily take the opportunity of prioritizing healthy carbs like potatoes like I should have

Diet breaks are maintenance breaks, eating normally and at maintenance. If we are talking 1 or 2 weeks then that would make them dove-tail nicely with a pre-defined event, or time period.

While I didn't plan for them, my frequent visits to and by my out of town parents created them for me! In fact, now that I think about it, they were 3 or 4 of them each year so easily in the 12 to 16 week time period as they tended to be 10-12 days in length, except for the Sept/Oct one which tended to be 21 to 28 days.

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

Categories are based on body fat percentage, can't remember the actual cut off between 2 and 3 (Cat 1 is 24% or below, for women), but based on your weight, you're a Cat 3.

You need to be at maintenance cals for at least a week to get the hormonal benefits, so yes, doing it that was would be fine if it's psychologically easier for you. Longer at maintenance is better, but it's up to you.

I checked my diary for when I was doing re-feeds, I was aiming to hit 300g a day, which was ~50% cals for me. Protein worked out to 30%, fats to 20%, though all of them were actually based on grams per lb of ideal weight. It's all in the video, from memory.

I've only just started adding activity and that's all cardio, so my body fat % is definitely still higher. I'd like to start weights but can't afford both a gym membership and the jiu-jitsu class, so I'm sticking with the jiu-jitsu for now. I don't like weight machines and I really want to start out with a trainer when I can afford it because I want to make sure I've got the forms right and I'm doing it right, and I can't tell that from a video on Youtube.

I've found that I just naturally eat a low fat diet anyway. My macros are currently set to 40%C and 30%P and 30%F, but while I focus on getting the protein in, I'm routinely eating more like 45%C and 25%F; it definitely wouldn't be hard to get the fat even lower. (That's the big reason I already know not to even bother trying low carb or keto!)

NovusDies wrote: »

@bmeadows380

Remember that banking calories is still an option during a break too in case you want to have a couple of really big food days.

There is another benefit of a diet/deficit break that helped me mentally. I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. After the midpoint it became almost a chore to complete. All I really ever wanted was a couple of big food days and then I was ready to get back to it. This has helped reinforce my overall change.

To do this though I had to learn to be picky. As a rule I make my food earn its calories but I do this even more when I decide to eat over my normal goal. An example was a an experience last year with a funnel cake. I had not had one in years. I was really looking forward to it but it wasn't that good so I stopped eating it. I have done something similar with several other foods. I consider the number of calories in the item in front of me then after a couple of bites I ask if it is worth it before continuing. It irritates me now that past me would eat room temp french fries and burgers that had been sitting around too long. I had to lose weight I gained from high calorie food I didn't fully enjoy.

My maintenance days have done wonders in changing my perceptions. I am not sure if I outgrew some of this food a long time ago and just ate it out of habit/convenience, my new way of eating has changed what I think is good, or, more likely, a combination of both.

I have found it interesting that things that used to catch my attention I no longer pay much attention to. Like donuts, for instance. If someone brought in donuts, I'd be eating at least 1 or 2, especially the filled ones. Now, I barely glance at them if someone has brought them in or when walking past a display case in the grocery store, and I don't really enjoy them when I do eat one because it tastes really artificial to me. I only crave french fries once in a while, but found that just that tiny kid's size that comes in a happy meal is plenty to satisfy that craving.

I really wish that were true for the half-cut teas.......

Thanks for all the input! I think I really will give the re-feed idea a go this weekend (that'll mean I won't have to skip breakfast to be able to eat dinner and birthday cake! And I can up the carbs easily by just adding in some homemade bread), and may still push a full diet break out to May, since I'm doing well at the moment.

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

NovusDies wrote: »

@bmeadows380

Remember that banking calories is still an option during a break too in case you want to have a couple of really big food days.

There is another benefit of a diet/deficit break that helped me mentally. I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. After the midpoint it became almost a chore to complete. All I really ever wanted was a couple of big food days and then I was ready to get back to it. This has helped reinforce my overall change.

To do this though I had to learn to be picky. As a rule I make my food earn its calories but I do this even more when I decide to eat over my normal goal. An example was a an experience last year with a funnel cake. I had not had one in years. I was really looking forward to it but it wasn't that good so I stopped eating it. I have done something similar with several other foods. I consider the number of calories in the item in front of me then after a couple of bites I ask if it is worth it before continuing. It irritates me now that past me would eat room temp french fries and burgers that had been sitting around too long. I had to lose weight I gained from high calorie food I didn't fully enjoy.

My maintenance days have done wonders in changing my perceptions. I am not sure if I outgrew some of this food a long time ago and just ate it out of habit/convenience, my new way of eating has changed what I think is good, or, more likely, a combination of both.

For the hormonal benefits, no, not really. You need to be at, or close, to maintenance every day. Leptin levels tank very quickly at a deficit, like within days (again, it's in the video), if you're having deficit days during your diet break, you're reversing the work you've put in to raise leptin. Lyle is quite clear about this.

That would be hard to calculate since your maintenance should go up some once your BMR resets though, right? There is also the chance that your NEAT might go up at maintenance.

Does he say how close is close enough? Starting to seem like a slight surplus may be the only way to get the full hormonal benefit.

I am going to need this information now because I plan to resume a deficit next week and postpone recomp until the gym opens back up. I should probably follow the recommendation for overweight since I was right on the line before I fluctuated. What would that be?

So the less you have to lose the more often you should do diet breaks? Can somebody break that down? Is that why the last 5-10lbs are the hardest to lose? Not taking enough breaks?

Correct on that concept, I think the extra info you are wondering about is page 2 updates.

Last 5-10 generally because of the accuracy issue. But also body has been under stress potentially for awhile, and waiting for a whoosh or such.

You can also skin that cat a different way since 250 cal deficit can be hard to keep. Take your week diet break.
Then keep 500 cal deficit for 2 weeks, take another break, then another 2 weeks. 3 weeks to lose 2 lbs instead of 4 on paper, and keeping that deficit perhaps in reality too.

bmeadows380 wrote: »

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

Categories are based on body fat percentage, can't remember the actual cut off between 2 and 3 (Cat 1 is 24% or below, for women), but based on your weight, you're a Cat 3.

You need to be at maintenance cals for at least a week to get the hormonal benefits, so yes, doing it that was would be fine if it's psychologically easier for you. Longer at maintenance is better, but it's up to you.

I checked my diary for when I was doing re-feeds, I was aiming to hit 300g a day, which was ~50% cals for me. Protein worked out to 30%, fats to 20%, though all of them were actually based on grams per lb of ideal weight. It's all in the video, from memory.

I've only just started adding activity and that's all cardio, so my body fat % is definitely still higher. I'd like to start weights but can't afford both a gym membership and the jiu-jitsu class, so I'm sticking with the jiu-jitsu for now. I don't like weight machines and I really want to start out with a trainer when I can afford it because I want to make sure I've got the forms right and I'm doing it right, and I can't tell that from a video on Youtube.

I am an experienced gym goer. It’ll be a long while before I can go back and do my workout the way I want (it’s not even open yet and when it is only hour-long slots by appointment, no drop-ins.)

I bought a couple sets of resistance bands (max weight for each set is 150 pounds). Love them! I may actually buy a third set next month. They come with handles and ankle wraps. (They anchor through a door.) I can’t replicate my beloved leg presses, but they give a run for my money on squats And other leg exercises. 😃💪🏻 And I have lots of room to go up regarding upper body. I’ve been enjoying myself Getting creative and trying new movements and increasing the weight. I track the exercises and weight on a google sheet. I use an app for the gym—I can never remember that stuff! 🤪

Quarantine has been tough, and I’ve made some good changes signed up for a meal delivery service and I’m getting more fruits and veggies. Still working on site some days—we had college students with no place to go so we kept them. And some who left and came back because home wasn’t good for them in one way or another. And all my maintenance and custodial staff stayed on site, they needed support, too.

We all do what we can with what we’ve got.

Glad this got bumped.

Very true the physical pounding can just be tiring - what's bad is when that leads to wanting to chuck the logging when you know that may be required for a very long time.

I've been doing 1 week break based on lbs lost, which ends up being every 5th week anyway, but I really should have planned out by time and had it set for planning.
Why?
Trying to do 3 weeks of groceries at a time to limit exposures - when I don't plan that extra food eaten reduces that time span pretty bad. Plus I forget to fill in some fun calories!