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Face mask or no face mask?

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  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,838 Member
    jamloche wrote: »
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.

    I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."

    Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?

    Thinking of this scenario in regards to school right now.
    A lot of teachers in our district are older and high-risk for other reasons - and home is the safest place for them - the increased risk and exposure that would happen going back to school just isn't going to be worth it for many of them and they have expressed that.

    Trying to imagine the schools, or any workplace for that matter - what do they say or do to those that for their own high risk personal safety say they can't come in?
    Lose their jobs, Dr's order, regulations a business can't fire over it, forced to help employee work from home if possible?

    As disagreeable as so many appear to be about masks, or not really adhering to good cleaning protocols in the first place (a mask with doing other things wrong doesn't help much) - just makes me wonder how many changes would be made to keep things safer.

    And while many actions are feel good (spray down the carts for me, but everything else in the store getting touched negates that - just give some sanitizer on the way out the door), and some are not fail-safe, they can at least lower the dosage you might say.
    Always about dosage it seems.
  • mockchoc
    mockchoc Posts: 6,573 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.

    Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?

    (Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)

    This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???

    They've had, what, five new cases in the last 24 hours and less than 1,700 total confirmed and probable cases overall? As an American, I'd love to be in that situation.

    Yes and my whole state had one case today and it's usually zero.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,878 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.

    Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?

    (Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)

    This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???

    They've had, what, five new cases in the last 24 hours and less than 1,700 total confirmed and probable cases overall? As an American, I'd love to be in that situation.

    Yes and my whole state had one case today and it's usually zero.

    My state had 567 new cases reported yesterday and we're not even one of the badly hit ones. About 1,800 dead overall and almost 67,000 people who will be living with the uncertain post-infection health impacts.
  • mockchoc
    mockchoc Posts: 6,573 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    Hey you. :) I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
  • cgvet37
    cgvet37 Posts: 1,189 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.

    I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
  • laurenq1991
    laurenq1991 Posts: 384 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    [I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.

    So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here. :(

    Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)
    Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.

    Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?
  • mockchoc
    mockchoc Posts: 6,573 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    [I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.

    So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here. :(

    Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)
    Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.

    Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?

    Ok well not looked into it but isn't the government taking care of them? They are here.
  • laurenq1991
    laurenq1991 Posts: 384 Member
    edited August 2020

    LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.

    The problem is that it never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.
    mockchoc wrote: »
    This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???

    You're literally making a smug post about how your country "behaved," in order to tell me that people in your country weren't acting smug about zero cases and claiming they "behaved."

    Call me back in two years and let me know how it all turned out over there in the end. All you guys are doing is delaying cases.
    mockchoc wrote: »
    Also to laurenq1991. You do realise the people being kept in quarantine in Australia are staying in rather nice hotels? They aren't being forced to stay in a hell hole. It isn't that they are put in some jail. Yes maybe now they have to pay to stay now but it's not a bad place to be but they knew they would have to right now. Don't travel if you can't afford the stay in a nice hotel for two weeks. I have paid to stay in some of them for vacation so I don't care what it's called it's still nice hotels, you are just doing what you should be doing to stop the spread of the virus. It's not hard. You get meals delivered and all the mod cons lay back, watch TV or work from there if you can.. no big deal.

    You mean like the people who were imprisoned in their low-income apartments in Melbourne with no food, medication, or baby formula? Yeah, this sure looks like a five-star hotel to me!

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/14/police-presence-at-melbourne-towers-was-dehumanising-infectious-disease-doctor-says
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/tower-lockdowns-spark-dozens-complaints-004300913--spt.html
    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2020/07/06/public-housing-lockdown-coronavirus/

    "Residents yelling for help from windows, friends turned away from dropping off care packages and masked police officers at the end of every corridor.

    This is the scene for about 3000 residents trapped inside public housing towers brought under sudden lockdown in Melbourne."

    "But the tense atmosphere outside a public housing block in Flemington tells a different story.

    There, residents said they feel more like they’re in jail.

    On Sunday, cries for help could be heard coming from the flats at 12 Holland Court.

    A sign plastered onto a fifth-floor window read: ‘Treat us as humans, not caged animals’."

    "In one instance, Mr Ige said it took the Department of Health and Human Services “at least 24 hours to deliver baby formula”.

    Alkira Austin, a 27-year-old Gunditjmara woman, said one family had to wait 18 hours before they were delivered any food packages.

    “And the food packages were so basic – just pasta and sauce, and no bread or milk,” Ms Austin told The New Daily."

    And these nice hotels are so great, that the people in them want to kill themselves and "distressed children" are spreading human waste on the walls, and the guards ignore it.
    https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/victorian-coronavirus-hotel-quarantine-inquiry-told-dhhs-staff-ignored-suicide-threats-lost-track-of-guests-at-parkroyal/ar-BB18aJMk

    "Meanwhile, a Melbourne lawyer who stayed at the Rydges Hotel has revealed images showing the filthy room he and his family were asked to stay in, which included discarded gloves on the floor, scraps of food and a blood-stained doona."

    "Jen said this resulted in daily welfare checks not being conducted on a family for a week.

    "It was very obvious that DHHS were having a hard time keeping a track of who was in the hotel and when," she said."

    "Another woman suffering "excruciating" pain from endometriosis was denied access to a kettle to boil water by DHHS staff, Jen said. The kettle was to be used to boil water to make herbal medicine that the woman regularly used while suffering the condition.

    "They were in so much pain it was affecting their speech," Jen said."

    https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/kids-spread-human-waste-covid-hotel/4081360/

    "It is thought the family's distressed children spread human waste in the room."
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