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COVID19 - To Vaccinate or To Not Vaccinate
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paperpudding wrote: »Minion_training_program wrote: »With all the talk about vaccine safety in pregnant women, I thought that this was good news and a good link to share.
First baby in U.S. born with antibodies against COVID-19 after mom receives dose of Moderna vaccine while pregnant - CBS News
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-moderna-baby-born-antibodies/
I actually thought that you should not get the vaccine if you are pregnant.
But that goes for all vaccines i thought
PS CBS news is not scientific news, so if there is someone to provide actual papers on yes or no vaccine for pregnant woman, i would like to know
I guess it depends a bit on the risk scenario involved.
here in Australia pregnant women are not routinely advised to have the vaccine
MY understanding about vaccines and actual pregnancies (not theoretical or potential risks) was that pregnant women were excluded from the trial groups - however 23 (I think) women did get pregnant anyway during the trials - aprox half in the vaccine group and half in the placebo group.
There were no negative outcomes
Quoting you because you quoted the post I wanted to reference... just read all 12 pages and didn’t want to go back searching on phone...
My input on this quote from PP...
“I actually thought that you should not get the vaccine if you are pregnant.
But that goes for all vaccines i thought”
I got pregnant during the 2009 swine flu pandemic. There was a rush for vaccine development then as well. I was still pregnant when they rolled out the H1N1 vaccine and my OB highly recommended it. (If I remember correctly, there was poor outcomes for pregnant women/unborn children if mother got swine flu). There was fear regarding a “new vaccine” that is similar to what many talk about today. While I was “nervous” about it (due to being pregnant), I followed my OB’s recommendations and got the H1N1 vaccine (as well as flu vaccine). I didn’t take advice from Facebook, family, society, etc. After all, my OB was the medical professional who was responsible for the care of my unborn child/myself- seemed like a safe bet to me! Neither of us had any negative side effects, reactions, etc. I can also say we didn’t get the swine flu- win in my book!
*I want to point out I didn’t do research on this and am only using my personal experience to dispute you shouldn’t get vaccinated while pregnant. Pregnant women should follow the advice of their OB/provider and not fear that advice due to misinformation/opinions of others.10 -
As I mentioned above, I just read the whole thread and am on phone, so it’s a bit difficult to go back and pull quotes. But there’s a few points I came across that I want to touch on, I’ll try to summarize my opinions/experience below...
1. I disagree with claims that Gardisil causes infertility. I don’t know that this PP is still around, but I hope they find reputable sources regarding this topic. In the event they’re still lurking I’ll share my experience... I got 1st dose in 2007, didn’t follow up for 2nd/3rd. While deployed to Iraq (2008), I got 1st/2nd dose simultaneously, didn’t follow up for 3rd after coming home. (Got pregnant within couple months of being home- 4/2009, pregnant again in 2011 and 2013). Got 2nd/3rd dose simultaneously in 2015 after having my 3rd healthy child. (Guess someone out there could argue it’s the 3rd dose that does it?! But seems asinine.) If anything I’d think my double dosing and sporadic timeline would be cause for greater issues. Which could also be argued by my experience... I ended up with a few abnormal paps (2013-2015), which ended up being severe pre-cancer of the cervix due to HPV. Got treatment and 2nd/3rd dose in 2015, as of late 2019 I’m still clear. Had I properly gotten the vaccination 2007-2008, I would have likely avoided that nightmare!
2. Further, my opinion is other vaccines shouldn’t be the first, go-to blame for infertility issues either. I’m female, by the time I was 19 I’d had a slew of vaccinations in the military- probably more vaccinated than most in my demographic to this day (to include many the typical US population doesn’t get such as small pox, anthrax, malaria, etc). I actually got pregnant 3x all post-vaccination within a couple months of trying. *please note, I am in no way trying to be insensitive to infertility issues! I know it is a very sensitive subject and I’m not trying to make light of the struggle many women have with conceiving! I just don’t want anyone to be convinced by misinformation that valuable vaccines should be avoided and blamed for infertility, I think the best course of action is to discuss your struggle with an OBGYN (not webMD or Internet strangers) who can help you navigate that process!
3. “I don’t live in fear...” ummm... people who say this as argument for not vaccinating are so silly! So you aren’t afraid of covid... but you sound pretty fearful of a vaccine. I’ll listen to medical professionals as I did the last 100 times I’ve been injected with a vaccine that caused zero side effects- let alone ICU, vent, or long-term respiratory issues.
Again, I’ll point out this is only my experience and opinions. No research is included here.18 -
3. “I don’t live in fear...” ummm... people who say this as argument for not vaccinating are so silly! So you aren’t afraid of covid... but you sound pretty fearful of a vaccine. I’ll listen to medical professionals as I did the last 100 times I’ve been injected with a vaccine that caused zero side effects- let alone ICU, vent, or long-term respiratory issues.
QFT5 -
Vaccines are not stopping the spread. So, If you're afraid then vaccinate. Just don't impose your fear on me. If I get sick I'll stay home.
So, are you going to vaccinate when you have the chance or not? If so, why not? It must be fear of something. How is your fear any better than someone else's "fear?"10 -
paperpudding wrote: »Minion_training_program wrote: »With all the talk about vaccine safety in pregnant women, I thought that this was good news and a good link to share.
First baby in U.S. born with antibodies against COVID-19 after mom receives dose of Moderna vaccine while pregnant - CBS News
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-moderna-baby-born-antibodies/
I actually thought that you should not get the vaccine if you are pregnant.
But that goes for all vaccines i thought
PS CBS news is not scientific news, so if there is someone to provide actual papers on yes or no vaccine for pregnant woman, i would like to know
I guess it depends a bit on the risk scenario involved.
here in Australia pregnant women are not routinely advised to have the vaccine
MY understanding about vaccines and actual pregnancies (not theoretical or potential risks) was that pregnant women were excluded from the trial groups - however 23 (I think) women did get pregnant anyway during the trials - aprox half in the vaccine group and half in the placebo group.
There were no negative outcomes
Quoting you because you quoted the post I wanted to reference... just read all 12 pages and didn’t want to go back searching on phone...
My input on this quote from PP...
“I actually thought that you should not get the vaccine if you are pregnant.
But that goes for all vaccines i thought”
I got pregnant during the 2009 swine flu pandemic. There was a rush for vaccine development then as well. I was still pregnant when they rolled out the H1N1 vaccine and my OB highly recommended it. (If I remember correctly, there was poor outcomes for pregnant women/unborn children if mother got swine flu). There was fear regarding a “new vaccine” that is similar to what many talk about today. While I was “nervous” about it (due to being pregnant), I followed my OB’s recommendations and got the H1N1 vaccine (as well as flu vaccine). I didn’t take advice from Facebook, family, society, etc. After all, my OB was the medical professional who was responsible for the care of my unborn child/myself- seemed like a safe bet to me! Neither of us had any negative side effects, reactions, etc. I can also say we didn’t get the swine flu- win in my book!
*I want to point out I didn’t do research on this and am only using my personal experience to dispute you shouldn’t get vaccinated while pregnant. Pregnant women should follow the advice of their OB/provider and not fear that advice due to misinformation/opinions of others.
This was the right thing to do and I’m glad you didn’t get sick.
I wish more people would listen to their medical providers instead of the media, their friends, Facebook, or some fake news they read online. So many nowadays read something online or hear something and think they know more than their doctor. It is ridiculous.
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Very good information in this thread, wholesome and elaborate. I've addressed questions and concerns about the vaccine with my doctor, and he's been very transparent and genuine in giving me the latest and most accurate information as it relates to what to expect if I chose to get vaccinated. I've also done a bit of my own research around COVID-19 and the latest advancements and research with the vaccine, and quite frankly it's still ongoing. A lot of what I'm learning is favorable toward getting vaccinated, however, the research I've done in collaboration with consulting a medical expert does not have me completed ready to pull the trigger just yet....referencing additional research, articles, and trials will certainly help my decision when I'm ready, but it will not overturn my apprehensiveness.... because to date, it can not objectively prove what my "unique" reaction to being vaccinated would be.
It's not from a misguided sense of self righteousness, arrogance, or disregard for myself or other's safety. I'm not in the science or medical field, which is why I am taking the initiative to further educate myself in an effort to make a sound decision for myself that is the best fit according to what I've learned. I am not comfortable yet, and will continue to stay open minded as more relevant information is inevitably discovered.4 -
The official recomendation in Australia - not from Facebook and the like but the official recomendation - is that we will not be routinely vaccinating or promoting the Covid vaccine, for pregnant women.2
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because to date, it can not objectively prove what my "unique" reaction to being vaccinated would be.
Well, yes, that is true - one cannot always predict who will have a reaction - but that goes for Covid disease too - we cannot objectively prove what your unique reaction to that would be nor always predict who will be more severely affected, or die, from it.
Risk of the disease has to be weighed up against risk of the vaccine.12 -
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Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
Average US deaths today hover around 1000 people. That’s 1000 people per day. PER. DAY. Down from 3000-4000 people per day in January. But still an unacceptable rate for loss of life. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/?tid=a_classic-iphone&no_nav=true6 -
Also the vaccine's job is to prevent you from getting sick in the first place. Mortality rate is among people who get sick. The vaccine doesn't improve the lottery winner rate either.6
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I am not even remotely concerned the covid vaccine will cause infertility. There's nothing in it that there is any reason to think would cause that, and female doctors, researchers, and public health officials vouch for it.
Yup. There is no link between the COVID vaccine (or Gardisil) and fertility. Even if there was ... Back in the 90’s, I had to choose between the most effective cancer treatment and my fertility. I chose the most effective treatment, even though there were other treatments I could have had that might have left me with the chance to have children. They also lessened my overall chance of survival. And this was a disease that only affected me—we are in the middle of a pandemic due to a communicable disease that keeps producing more transmissible variants. COVID is the gift we can keep on giving to each other, unfortunately.
Dead women don’t have children. And while there “might” be a treatment that would someday restore my fertility, there would never be one that would bring me back to life (or anyone else). As for children, to my way of thinking there are many already in the world who need good homes. But that’s my approach.
Already had both doses of vaccine. For me, and for those around me.13 -
You hit the nail on the head. I work with college students and out of the many who have tested positive, I’ve had three who’ve had symptoms. When I call them to tell them they’re positive and going into isolation, the first thing they say is “I feel fine.” And I tell them I hope it stays that way—that it remains an inconvenience for them as opposed to an illness. I’ve had more students report symptoms, get tested, and come back negative than I’ve had positive students with symptoms. Asymptomatic spread is absolutely a thing.9 -
SummerSkier wrote: »I think there are multiple camps on this issue. You have the pro vaccination group, the I am not going to get it because.. group, and the anti vaccination because it will kill you group. I agree with Kimny, I am also surprised that the US #s have dropped so rapidly, and I don't think it is possible that it is attributable to the vaccine but if a single dose gives some immunity or less severe cases perhaps it is? We did start this process in Dec.
The thing is, our case numbers dropped from the holiday spike, but they are still high. They just seem low because of what we just got through. We're at the levels we were last summer now, and still higher than we were in the fall!
YES! Our daily death rate in the US has dropped about 75% from the peak in January. To around 1000 people a day. It boggles my mind how people think it’s OK to throw caution to the wind and end the virus transmission mitigation strategies with the variants and only about 15% of the adult population vaccinated. It’s 1000 people too many when we can employ techniques to lessen the rate of infection.3 -
NorthCascades wrote: »tcunbeliever wrote: »Vaccines can't stop the spread until they reach a herd immunity level...at this point my state is only about 11% vaccinated, it's not enough to stop the spread...not even enough to considerably slow it...but as the percentage of population vaccinated increases, it will slow and then stop the spread of covid, it's just going to take a while getting to that point.
We're already seeing things get better - less spread.
At some point, long before we reach 80% innoculated for herd immunity, it will be getting rarer, and easier to track. If we're smart about contact tracing we'll be able to switch from mass vaccination to ring vaccination. We don't actually have to get to 80%.
Until spring break ends and they all head home on planes ...
https://apple.news/ADq4se6vXSEm8nIjl8zQ6zQ
Things are not looking good in parts of Florida and South Texas with spring break revelers. 😞2 -
Analog_Kid wrote: »Throughout the pandemic, the US COVID mortality rate has steadily hovered around 0.017%
Since deploying the vaccine, the average mortality rate hasn't changed.
With or without the vaccine, COVID has a 99.98% survival rate.
Those aren't bad odds.
Average US deaths today hover around 1000 people. That’s 1000 people per day. PER. DAY. Down from 3000-4000 people per day in January. But still an unacceptable rate for loss of life. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/?tid=a_classic-iphone&no_nav=true
There’s also the part where he moved the decimal place over twice. It’s 1.7% or .017 cases per hundred, NOT .017%. Big difference, and a big fat lie.7 -
NorthCascades wrote: »tcunbeliever wrote: »Vaccines can't stop the spread until they reach a herd immunity level...at this point my state is only about 11% vaccinated, it's not enough to stop the spread...not even enough to considerably slow it...but as the percentage of population vaccinated increases, it will slow and then stop the spread of covid, it's just going to take a while getting to that point.
We're already seeing things get better - less spread.
At some point, long before we reach 80% innoculated for herd immunity, it will be getting rarer, and easier to track. If we're smart about contact tracing we'll be able to switch from mass vaccination to ring vaccination. We don't actually have to get to 80%.
Until spring break ends and they all head home on planes ...
https://apple.news/ADq4se6vXSEm8nIjl8zQ6zQ
Things are not looking good in parts of Florida and South Texas with spring break revelers. 😞
I'm sure it's not a fair comparison, but SARS1 and Ebola both made it to North America and Europe, and at least in part because people reacted without too much stupidity, those didn't become pandemic. When we started hearing about this strange pneumonia in China, I thought the same thing was going to happen, public health institutions would save us.
So, in terms of what's ahead, there's what could be done, and what's going to happen. ☹️0 -
paperpudding wrote: »because to date, it can not objectively prove what my "unique" reaction to being vaccinated would be.
Well, yes, that is true - one cannot always predict who will have a reaction - but that goes for Covid disease too - we cannot objectively prove what your unique reaction to that would be nor always predict who will be more severely affected, or die, from it.
Risk of the disease has to be weighed up against risk of the vaccine.
Agreed
I hoped that my post alluded to my understanding of that. 1 -
fitnessguy266 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »because to date, it can not objectively prove what my "unique" reaction to being vaccinated would be.
Well, yes, that is true - one cannot always predict who will have a reaction - but that goes for Covid disease too - we cannot objectively prove what your unique reaction to that would be nor always predict who will be more severely affected, or die, from it.
Risk of the disease has to be weighed up against risk of the vaccine.
Agreed I hoped that my post alluded to my understanding of that.
The thing about unique reactions to vaccines - and they can be very severe, causing paralysis, for example - is, first, serious reactions of this type are VERY rare, like one in a million rare. There are more than 300 million people in the US so we could reasonably expect 300 1-in-a-million reactions, so, one in a million isn’t the same as “never,” it’s more like you just won 2 billion dollars on a powerball ticket rare.
The second and more important thing to understand about them is how they are caused. Sometimes, just due to pure luck, a particular person will have some part of his cell structure which resembles the virus cell structure targeted by the vaccine. So when the vaccine teaches the body to fight back against the virus, it also learns to fight against itself. Here’s the important part: this would also happen, and worse, if that particular person caught the disease.
Think of a virus as being like a criminal about to go on a shooting spree in your body, and your body like a city. The vaccine is like someone sending wanted posters to all the police stations in your city, saying this virus has committed crimes in other cities, so arrest it if you see it. Without the posters, the virus won’t get arrested until AFTER it whips out its gun and starts shooting people. The posters let your city’s police (antibodies) know who to arrest.
For a very few unlucky cities, someone innocent living there (maybe a part of the cells lining their nervous system) just happens to have a similar “face” as the criminal on the wanted poster. The police start arresting the wrong guy! Not good. But if you have followed the analogy this far, you can see that when the crime spree starts and the APB goes out with a description of the criminal, the mistaken identity will happen, even without the posters.
In fact, Wilkes Barre syndrome, probably the best known reaction of this type, is about twice as severe when triggered by an infection as by a vaccine, and is ten times more likely to be triggered by an infection than a vaccine for the infection.
If you have followed this far, maybe I can use this analogy to describe the difference between an mRNA vaccine such as Pfizer or Moderna, and a killed virus vaccine such as the flu vaccine. If the flu vaccine is someone putting up posters in a police station, an mRNA vaccine is like someone sending a file directing the station to print out its own posters. The benefit of this kind of vaccine is that it doesn’t require growing virus in millions of eggs, because your cells grow a tiny part of the virus - not enough to function and hurt you, but enough for your antibodies to learn to recognize it.
So, to summarize, worrying about taking the vaccine because you might have a one in a million reaction only makes sense if you personally have almost zero chance of catching the virus. Because if you catch the virus, you are having that reaction, period.
If you live in New Zealand, which has successfully eliminated the virus, this might be a reasonable fear. If you live in America, it makes about as much sense as spending all your rent money
on a powerball ticket.11 -
cmriverside wrote: »I have to wonder what the concern is for KHMcG.
He is 50ish years old and according to his profile his weight and cholesterol numbers were concerning to him and that's when he decided to do something about it and lose the the weight. He mentions that he has four children and would like to live to see his grandchildren.
With all that said, why would you not want to be vaccinated? Surely your children would like to see their parents live a few more years? If there's a way out, why on earth would you not take it?
Sure, cancer, heart disease, and diseases-yet-to-be-named (not to mention all the ones we do name) may still get ya, but
There is a way out.
Why.... I can't even....
Hey I'm open for conversation. Let's just not get into sweeping statements of what is true and not true. There is insufficient evidence to make these claims.
I would like to be around for my family. I cannot stop or prevent the enevitable and have accepted death will come. I am all for prevention when the risks are known and the result is reasonably proven. I did a little reading this afternoon. Lots of conflicting information. Experts are warning against sweeping statements.
Some of the most alarming expert advice is that even once vaccination is at a very high rate we will still be masking. For me I am not interested in living 20 to 40 years like this.
Come on.
I mean, I'm a strong believer in the concept that everyone gets to decide what makes life worth living for them, but if you would rather DIE than wear a mask in group settings, it's hard to take you seriously.20
https://youtu.be/K3odScka55A
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