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Why Is Food "Addiction" So Controversial?
Replies
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To continue on the cognitive work of changing behaviors.... I am lingering over the recognition that there is a difference between:
- identifying subconscious beliefs, evaluating whether they are actually true, and recalibrating them
- the 12 (or so) [url="http://"]cognitive distortions[/url] defined in the Beck CBT model.
Good examples of reexamined beliefs above (alcohol is good for sleep, relaxation, etc.) I am also curious about cognitive distortions folks may have recognized (all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralizing, filtering, etc.) and found it helpful to change.
Lots of MFP-ers have commented on all-or-nothing thinking, i.e. "I've ruined the day/week/year by eating one meal off plan so I might as well go off plan for everything else." That's a distortion. The reality is every little bit you do counts, so getting right back on plan would result in a small bump in the road, not a catastrophe. Other examples (I'm making these up now):
- overgeneralizing: "sugar always makes me overeat" vs reality which might be something like "I don't overeat fruit so I'm able to moderate some foods with sucrose/fructose"
- filtering: dwelling only on failures instead of recognizing some success plus some fails.
Interested in others' thoughts.
I know little or nothing about CBT per se, but what you're saying here - I think - is related to something I've typed a number of times in threads here on MFP: That self-definition is really, really important; and that there has to be a way to make a tiny chink in the wall of self-concept, to create a potential for change. For example: "I hate exercise" vs. "I haven't yet found a way of moving more that I enjoy" or "I can't resist sweets" vs. "In the past, I've struggled to resist sweets".
It's kind of at the root of why I don't like the casual "addiction" language for eating issues, in most cases. It situates the power in some non-controllable place, inside the self, but outside self-control. That's not a great starting point, conceptually, for change.
(If the "addiction" language were limited to things like severe binging, where an individual feels completely out of control, literally desperately eating anything that's at hand, I wouldn't consider that "casual" usage: There really is a deep problem of self-control. "I will eat a whole sleeve of Oreos, but not the apples, nor drink honey out of the jar" called "sugar addiction" is still a behavioral problem, but not the same nature of problem.)7 -
To continue on the cognitive work of changing behaviors.... I am lingering over the recognition that there is a difference between:
- identifying subconscious beliefs, evaluating whether they are actually true, and recalibrating them
- the 12 (or so) [url="http://"]cognitive distortions[/url] defined in the Beck CBT model.
Good examples of reexamined beliefs above (alcohol is good for sleep, relaxation, etc.) I am also curious about cognitive distortions folks may have recognized (all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralizing, filtering, etc.) and found it helpful to change.
Lots of MFP-ers have commented on all-or-nothing thinking, i.e. "I've ruined the day/week/year by eating one meal off plan so I might as well go off plan for everything else." That's a distortion. The reality is every little bit you do counts, so getting right back on plan would result in a small bump in the road, not a catastrophe. Other examples (I'm making these up now):
- overgeneralizing: "sugar always makes me overeat" vs reality which might be something like "I don't overeat fruit so I'm able to moderate some foods with sucrose/fructose"
- filtering: dwelling only on failures instead of recognizing some success plus some fails.
Interested in others' thoughts.
I know little or nothing about CBT per se, but what you're saying here - I think - is related to something I've typed a number of times in threads here on MFP: That self-definition is really, really important; and that there has to be a way to make a tiny chink in the wall of self-concept, to create a potential for change. For example: "I hate exercise" vs. "I haven't yet found a way of moving more that I enjoy" or "I can't resist sweets" vs. "In the past, I've struggled to resist sweets".
It's kind of at the root of why I don't like the casual "addiction" language for eating issues, in most cases. It situates the power in some non-controllable place, inside the self, but outside self-control. That's not a great starting point, conceptually, for change.
(If the "addiction" language were limited to things like severe binging, where an individual feels completely out of control, literally desperately eating anything that's at hand, I wouldn't consider that "casual" usage: There really is a deep problem of self-control. "I will eat a whole sleeve of Oreos, but not the apples, nor drink honey out of the jar" called "sugar addiction" is still a behavioral problem, but not the same nature of problem.)
There's a new term that's popular called "Growth Mindset." This has been used a lot at my kids' school since they were in like 1st grade, teaching them about this concept in terms that they can understand. It's why telling kids "you're so smart" is actually not helpful, but can be damaging. I've started applying this concept to myself, and I think that's why I've been successful in keeping weight off.
The whole concept is recognizing what you "glow" at (typically referred to as "strengths") and what are the areas in which you need to "grow" (commonly referred to as weaknesses). Even the terminology is that of more control of what we can change. That's why I, too, now have a problem in admitting "powerlessness" over certain foods. I understand that with highly addictive substances that makes more sense for some, but for food...I don't know.2 -
Speakeasy76 wrote: »To continue on the cognitive work of changing behaviors.... I am lingering over the recognition that there is a difference between:
- identifying subconscious beliefs, evaluating whether they are actually true, and recalibrating them
- the 12 (or so) [url="http://"]cognitive distortions[/url] defined in the Beck CBT model.
Good examples of reexamined beliefs above (alcohol is good for sleep, relaxation, etc.) I am also curious about cognitive distortions folks may have recognized (all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralizing, filtering, etc.) and found it helpful to change.
Lots of MFP-ers have commented on all-or-nothing thinking, i.e. "I've ruined the day/week/year by eating one meal off plan so I might as well go off plan for everything else." That's a distortion. The reality is every little bit you do counts, so getting right back on plan would result in a small bump in the road, not a catastrophe. Other examples (I'm making these up now):
- overgeneralizing: "sugar always makes me overeat" vs reality which might be something like "I don't overeat fruit so I'm able to moderate some foods with sucrose/fructose"
- filtering: dwelling only on failures instead of recognizing some success plus some fails.
Interested in others' thoughts.
I know little or nothing about CBT per se, but what you're saying here - I think - is related to something I've typed a number of times in threads here on MFP: That self-definition is really, really important; and that there has to be a way to make a tiny chink in the wall of self-concept, to create a potential for change. For example: "I hate exercise" vs. "I haven't yet found a way of moving more that I enjoy" or "I can't resist sweets" vs. "In the past, I've struggled to resist sweets".
It's kind of at the root of why I don't like the casual "addiction" language for eating issues, in most cases. It situates the power in some non-controllable place, inside the self, but outside self-control. That's not a great starting point, conceptually, for change.
(If the "addiction" language were limited to things like severe binging, where an individual feels completely out of control, literally desperately eating anything that's at hand, I wouldn't consider that "casual" usage: There really is a deep problem of self-control. "I will eat a whole sleeve of Oreos, but not the apples, nor drink honey out of the jar" called "sugar addiction" is still a behavioral problem, but not the same nature of problem.)
There's a new term that's popular called "Growth Mindset." This has been used a lot at my kids' school since they were in like 1st grade, teaching them about this concept in terms that they can understand. It's why telling kids "you're so smart" is actually not helpful, but can be damaging. I've started applying this concept to myself, and I think that's why I've been successful in keeping weight off.
The whole concept is recognizing what you "glow" at (typically referred to as "strengths") and what are the areas in which you need to "grow" (commonly referred to as weaknesses). Even the terminology is that of more control of what we can change. That's why I, too, now have a problem in admitting "powerlessness" over certain foods. I understand that with highly addictive substances that makes more sense for some, but for food...I don't know.
I did some reading on this for a class recently and reflecting on it, I was pretty amazed to realize how much I typically limited myself by my assumptions of what I could do and what I couldn't do, when really what I should have been thinking of is "what I already know how to do" and "what I don't yet know how to do." I won't say I've made great strides in applying it yet, but I'm trying to get better at disrupting that thought pattern when I recognize it.
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I do think food can be addictive. It’s proven that sugar is more addictive than opioids like heroin. I battle with food constantly, i battle the junk food and fast over over the healthy and homemade. It’s something you have to work on every day of your life if you want to be healthy and have an addiction to food. Yes you need food to live, but you don’t need McDonalds, chips, pizza, etc. to live.1
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dekrugermolly wrote: »I do think food can be addictive. It’s proven that sugar is more addictive than opioids like heroin. I battle with food constantly, i battle the junk food and fast over over the healthy and homemade. It’s something you have to work on every day of your life if you want to be healthy and have an addiction to food. Yes you need food to live, but you don’t need McDonalds, chips, pizza, etc. to live.
It is not proven.11 -
Worms, worms, worms everywhere.
Commenting to follow, but it is really a somewhat unique case. We all have to eat to survive. Is a biological need an addition in itself? I don't think so, but others might.
As for particular foods, I think it falls into desires more than addictions personally. While a person might want a fatty and sweet treat, they would probably still eat a cream filled donut if it had a protein biased macro, or many less calories, etc. They just IMHO want that particular taste they are craving.4 -
dekrugermolly wrote: »I do think food can be addictive. It’s proven that sugar is more addictive than opioids like heroin. I battle with food constantly, i battle the junk food and fast over over the healthy and homemade. It’s something you have to work on every day of your life if you want to be healthy and have an addiction to food. Yes you need food to live, but you don’t need McDonalds, chips, pizza, etc. to live.
When and how was that proven?8 -
I just caught upon this thread and thoroughly enjoyed, especially the bits on cheese and WWII eating. The discussion seems to show that at least one reason for controversy is the lack of a single definition of addiction that is clear and that everyone is using.
Is “alcohol addiction” or “alcoholic” even in the DSM-5? I thought those terms were replaced with “alcohol use disorder” because psychologists also struggled to give definitions precise enough to be helpful (I.e. to pinpoint when a patient had crossed the line into addiction). “Alcohol use disorder” gives practitioners a spectrum of behaviors that are more flexible and descriptive, and hence easier to use.
If we go with the “disordered” language, we can see similarities in some eating disorder behaviors and substance use disorder behaviors, but we can also see that the spectrum of behaviors can be much more extreme and destructive with disordered use of alcohol and drugs.snowflake954 wrote: »iFartMagic wrote: »Food addiction is 100% a thing. It does not matter if you need it to live or not, it is a mental disorder to eat beyond what you need to live to such an excess that it is extremely unhealthy. A food addicted person will just be on auto pilot and eat until they are sick even.
People DO use it as an excuse sometimes and are not actually addicted, and it has to be diagnosed, but it is the same class as any other eating disorder.
"Eating disorder" not "Addiction". You said it yourself.
Eating disorders (and OSFED—Other Specified Feeding or Eating Disorders) do have actions that could be classified as problem behaviors with some similar veins of addiction treatment (like CBT—Cognitive Behavior Therapy). They also have the commonality of being endemic for most sufferers.
However, they typically aren’t treated like addictions. Eating Disorders are self-harming behaviors with different response needs than addiction.5 -
I just caught upon this thread and thoroughly enjoyed, especially the bits on cheese and WWII eating. The discussion seems to show that at least one reason for controversy is the lack of a single definition of addiction that is clear and that everyone is using.
Is “alcohol addiction” or “alcoholic” even in the DSM-5? I thought those terms were replaced with “alcohol use disorder” because psychologists also struggled to give definitions precise enough to be helpful (I.e. to pinpoint when a patient had crossed the line into addiction). “Alcohol use disorder” gives practitioners a spectrum of behaviors that are more flexible and descriptive, and hence easier to use.
If we go with the “disordered” language, we can see similarities in some eating disorder behaviors and substance use disorder behaviors, but we can also see that the spectrum of behaviors can be much more extreme and destructive with disordered use of alcohol and drugs.snowflake954 wrote: »iFartMagic wrote: »Food addiction is 100% a thing. It does not matter if you need it to live or not, it is a mental disorder to eat beyond what you need to live to such an excess that it is extremely unhealthy. A food addicted person will just be on auto pilot and eat until they are sick even.
People DO use it as an excuse sometimes and are not actually addicted, and it has to be diagnosed, but it is the same class as any other eating disorder.
"Eating disorder" not "Addiction". You said it yourself.
Eating disorders (and OSFED—Other Specified Feeding or Eating Disorders) do have actions that could be classified as problem behaviors with some similar veins of addiction treatment (like CBT—Cognitive Behavior Therapy). They also have the commonality of being endemic for most sufferers.
However, they typically aren’t treated like addictions. Eating Disorders are self-harming behaviors with different response needs than addiction.
Self-harming behavior describes disordered eating very well for me.2 -
dekrugermolly wrote: »I do think food can be addictive. It’s proven that sugar is more addictive than opioids like heroin. I battle with food constantly, i battle the junk food and fast over over the healthy and homemade. It’s something you have to work on every day of your life if you want to be healthy and have an addiction to food. Yes you need food to live, but you don’t need McDonalds, chips, pizza, etc. to live.
I'm sorry, but that's not proven at all...and any comparison between sugar and opioids is beyond ludicrous. Have you ever watched a heroin addict go through withdrawals and detox? In most cases, this needs to be done under supervised medical attention. I've watched my friend go through it and trying to do it on his own cold turkey...I'm pretty sure someone who doesn't get their Oreo fix isn't going to go through their first few days of withdrawal wallowing in their closet in a pool of their own vomit and diarrhea.
The only comparison that can be made between sugar and drugs or alcohol is the release of dopamine...in which case, you could compare anything at all that is pleasurable to drugs or alcohol because anything pleasurable is going to release dopamine. And that's pretty much where any comparison stops. Drugs and alcohol substantially alter your brain chemistry...sugar does not do that. Sugar is not a poisonous, toxic chemical that is foreign to our bodies...drugs and alcohol are...why do you think you puke when you've had too much to drink...because your body is smart and knows that ethanol is poison and not meant to be ingested.18 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »I just caught upon this thread and thoroughly enjoyed, especially the bits on cheese and WWII eating. The discussion seems to show that at least one reason for controversy is the lack of a single definition of addiction that is clear and that everyone is using.
Is “alcohol addiction” or “alcoholic” even in the DSM-5? I thought those terms were replaced with “alcohol use disorder” because psychologists also struggled to give definitions precise enough to be helpful (I.e. to pinpoint when a patient had crossed the line into addiction). “Alcohol use disorder” gives practitioners a spectrum of behaviors that are more flexible and descriptive, and hence easier to use.
If we go with the “disordered” language, we can see similarities in some eating disorder behaviors and substance use disorder behaviors, but we can also see that the spectrum of behaviors can be much more extreme and destructive with disordered use of alcohol and drugs.
I started cognitive behavior therapy in January for my alcohol use (she uses "alcohol use disorder"). It has been a true game changer, and I am also now even more careful with the term "addiction" or "addict". I won't go in to all of the ins and outs and whatnots of what I'm doing as it would be long, and I also don't want to be that guy who's just excited and high on life right now, so much so as to be annoying to those who don't have the same enthusiasm.
But with this therapy and my readings and journaling that I do daily, I have figured out why I could never really buy into AA, having gone to quite a few meetings over the last couple of years. Meetings start out by basically labeling yourself as an alcoholic...and verbally saying you are flawed and powerless. It was a constant negative feed back loop and negative self-speak that caused this constant battle between the willpower of my conscious mind and my deeply held beliefs about alcohol deep down in my subconscious.
As I said, I'm much more careful than ever now with the word "addiction"...you put yourself in a box...you are putting a label on yourself...a negative one. You are essentially saying you are somehow flawed and powerless. I'm definitely no long hauler when it comes to sobriety at the moment, but I have been sober now longer than I have ever been in the past 20-25 years. I didn't have a quit date...I had a start date, as in the start of something new and something better. I'm not focused on what I'm giving up...I'm focused on what I'm gaining. In therapy we've been diving deep into my subconscious beliefs around alcohol and analyzing whether or not those beliefs are actually true...news flash, most of them are not true at all and in fact, quite the opposite of what I've held to be true.
Given how much I was drinking, I was actually surprised to have pretty minimal physical withdrawal symptoms. I wasn't a 2 or 3 beers a night kind of guy...I was at least a pint of vodka and 2 or 3 beers to chase it down with guy, and more on weekends. It was more rare, but there were occasional weekend days that I would pretty much wake up and get my coffee and get started on my booze cruise right away if I didn't really have anything planned for the day. Withdrawal wise, I was a little irritable and grumpy the first three or four days. On my second day sober, I woke up feeling a bit under the weather...like I was coming down with some kind of mild flu and curled up on the couch wondering how I was going to get through this or if it would just be the same old same old. Upon further reflection, part of that was probably a bit of physical withdrawal...but a big part of it was a psychosomatic response...I more or less felt physically fine after that day except for maybe being a bit snippy and kind of lost as to what to do with myself since my brain wasn't being "entertained" by booze.
In talking to my therapist, severe withdrawal symptoms can occur...and you here about them a lot, but thankfully, they occur in only about 10% of heavy drinkers, most of whom are drinking sun up to sun down for many years. I was thankful to here that most drinkers, even fairly heavy drinkers experience only mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms.
At any rate, I think cognitive behavior therapy can help with many things, not just alcohol...smoking...food issues...gambling...you name it. And if you truly have issues, having a therapist to help you dig around in your brain is extremely helpful.
Really glad to hear this!
I have talked about my own alcohol misuse many times here, and also never label myself an alcoholic, or former alcoholic. AA rubbed me the wrong way - I too hate that powerless negative self-speak. I stopped going for myself rather quickly, but went with friends and family many times after that.
Not knocking AA for those who like it, but for those who don't, Smart Recovery uses CBT techniques and there are lots of online meetings these days.
https://www.smartrecovery.org/community/calendar.php?styleid=2911 -
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Ravencrow369 wrote: »As someone who literally writhed and gnashed teeth with perceived "want" of certain trigger foods I can say some days it feels harder than quitting smoking.
When quitting smoking I stopped going places people smoke, stopped hanging with people while they smoke, and they hide them behind closed doors in the shops now so I dont see them and they smell gross.
If only the same could be said for avoiding people who eat and while they eat and that cherry covered black forest cake in the bakery case looking and smelling so inviting on the way to the checkout.
Dont have to constantly plan life around avoiding smokers anymore 3 years later but have to look at food all the time and watch every bite. Ahh to become a Breathatarian...
Yeah to me stopping eating certain foods is harder than stopping drinking so idk. I just can't moderate chocolate or potato chips - but I "gave up" wine last fall. I was an almost daily drinker, and now I have no problem having a glass or two of wine once in a while, and then not thinking about it again another couple of weeks. With me drinking wine was more of a habit that I associated with things, and once that habit was broken I don't crave it or anything. Certain foods on the other hand I do. Like I can have one glass of wine and stop, but I will eat all the chocolate until it is gone.0 -
My stance on food "addiction" is that you can't avoid eating food.
Other addictions like opiates, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. CAN be avoided without the person impairing their physical health.
Since I also believe that addictions are more mental than physical, mental health also has to be addressed when trying to deal with getting people away from what they are addicted to.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Coming in very late, but...
For me, the question that determines how I answer this is... what's the distinction between being conditioned towards an action and being addicted to the thing? i.e. am I conditioned to drink, or am I addicted to the buzz?
I know that when I feel a certain way, I seek food. Is that an addiction, or is it a conditioned response? I'm not sure.
But as for OP's original question as to why people feel so strongly about it... I think there are 2 things at play. (1) people generally feel more strongly about their own experiences, and (2) it's the internet... getting all riled up is what we do here.5 -
I think the word "Addiction" trips people up.
Just like alcohol and opiates, overeating is a coping mechanism. This is known. The largest study ever done on the long-term health effects of childhood trauma originated at an obesity clinic, the ACE study.
There are ways to become addicted to alcohol and opiates without having significant childhood trauma. It happens. If you have to take Vicodin every day for months to manage pain, you can become addicted. As far as I know, people don't develop compulsive eating habits that lead to obesity in this accidental way.
That's a significant difference.
But, your chances of becoming an alcoholic, an opium addict, a compulsive gambler or obese all increase significantly according to how much childhood trauma you were subject to.
For many people, overeating treats a problem that will not vanish with weight loss.
Who they are, how they feel all the time when they aren't overeating, is unbearable to them.
That makes it almost identical to an addiction. You can really only split hairs about how that unbearableness came to be and how we understand it physiologically.
But yes, there are people for whom not eating compulsively feels intolerable.
I think, if we can just understand that, quibbling about whether to call is an addiction is irrelevant.6 -
I think the word "Addiction" trips people up.
Just like alcohol and opiates, overeating is a coping mechanism. This is known. The largest study ever done on the long-term health effects of childhood trauma originated at an obesity clinic, the ACE study.
There are ways to become addicted to alcohol and opiates without having significant childhood trauma. It happens. If you have to take Vicodin every day for months to manage pain, you can become addicted. As far as I know, people don't develop compulsive eating habits that lead to obesity in this accidental way.
That's a significant difference.
But, your chances of becoming an alcoholic, an opium addict, a compulsive gambler or obese all increase significantly according to how much childhood trauma you were subject to.
For many people, overeating treats a problem that will not vanish with weight loss.
Who they are, how they feel all the time when they aren't overeating, is unbearable to them.
That makes it almost identical to an addiction. You can really only split hairs about how that unbearableness came to be and how we understand it physiologically.
But yes, there are people for whom not eating compulsively feels intolerable.
I think, if we can just understand that, quibbling about whether to call is an addiction is irrelevant.
I think some of this thread is more like quibbling about whether Suzie, who likes large portions of yummy cookies and candy a bit too often, but shows no other obvious signs of feeling intolerable when not eating compulsively, is helped or harmed by a quick cultural tendency to resort to "addiction" terminology.
I can't speak for others, but I don't think it's too far a reach to use the term in cases like you're describing, even though the use may be a bit metaphorical vs. literal. There is a deep problem in those cases.
In other cases, where there does not seem to be a deep problem or compulsion, that terminology IMO is better for generating excuses and reasons to fail, than it is for finding paths to success. Now, obviously, we can't fully diagnose someone from a single post, and I'm in no way a trained psychoanalyst, so there can be assumptions involved.
I'm quite confident that there are people who overeat, and get fat/obese, completely without any kind of deep psychological motivation beyond "food is tasty, and it's pleasant to eat more of it". Some of that confidence comes from having been that kind of person myself.
Probably all of us overgeneralize too much, tend to assume others are like us, when hard evidence either way isn't necessarily present. That's sort of human nature. I've seen that cut both ways on threads, where people who overeat cookies are assumed by others to have deep psychological motivations when it turns out that they don't; and where people who may have deeper issues are blithely advised by others just to move more and eat less, which - while true - isn't helpful or responsive to a true compulsion.5 -
I have no idea what obvious signs you'd expect to see. This kind of trauma is generally invisible. For the most part, you can't even ask people. They'll say they had no childhood trauma when they were raped at the age of 6.
You aren't just making some assumption sometimes. You're always ignorant. Hiding your pain is a survival strategy.
But I also don't know that you're providing an out. In either case there is hard work to be done. Either through self-discipline or trauma recovery or addiction recovery. In all cases, you have a problem that only you can fix. In all cases, you can easily not solve it and make excuses, instead.
Each of us is responsible for our happiness. That is always true. I don't think calling food an addiction has any relevance to that.3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I just caught upon this thread and thoroughly enjoyed, especially the bits on cheese and WWII eating. The discussion seems to show that at least one reason for controversy is the lack of a single definition of addiction that is clear and that everyone is using.
Is “alcohol addiction” or “alcoholic” even in the DSM-5? I thought those terms were replaced with “alcohol use disorder” because psychologists also struggled to give definitions precise enough to be helpful (I.e. to pinpoint when a patient had crossed the line into addiction). “Alcohol use disorder” gives practitioners a spectrum of behaviors that are more flexible and descriptive, and hence easier to use.
If we go with the “disordered” language, we can see similarities in some eating disorder behaviors and substance use disorder behaviors, but we can also see that the spectrum of behaviors can be much more extreme and destructive with disordered use of alcohol and drugs.
I started cognitive behavior therapy in January for my alcohol use (she uses "alcohol use disorder"). It has been a true game changer, and I am also now even more careful with the term "addiction" or "addict". I won't go in to all of the ins and outs and whatnots of what I'm doing as it would be long, and I also don't want to be that guy who's just excited and high on life right now, so much so as to be annoying to those who don't have the same enthusiasm.
But with this therapy and my readings and journaling that I do daily, I have figured out why I could never really buy into AA, having gone to quite a few meetings over the last couple of years. Meetings start out by basically labeling yourself as an alcoholic...and verbally saying you are flawed and powerless. It was a constant negative feed back loop and negative self-speak that caused this constant battle between the willpower of my conscious mind and my deeply held beliefs about alcohol deep down in my subconscious.
As I said, I'm much more careful than ever now with the word "addiction"...you put yourself in a box...you are putting a label on yourself...a negative one. You are essentially saying you are somehow flawed and powerless. I'm definitely no long hauler when it comes to sobriety at the moment, but I have been sober now longer than I have ever been in the past 20-25 years. I didn't have a quit date...I had a start date, as in the start of something new and something better. I'm not focused on what I'm giving up...I'm focused on what I'm gaining. In therapy we've been diving deep into my subconscious beliefs around alcohol and analyzing whether or not those beliefs are actually true...news flash, most of them are not true at all and in fact, quite the opposite of what I've held to be true.
Given how much I was drinking, I was actually surprised to have pretty minimal physical withdrawal symptoms. I wasn't a 2 or 3 beers a night kind of guy...I was at least a pint of vodka and 2 or 3 beers to chase it down with guy, and more on weekends. It was more rare, but there were occasional weekend days that I would pretty much wake up and get my coffee and get started on my booze cruise right away if I didn't really have anything planned for the day. Withdrawal wise, I was a little irritable and grumpy the first three or four days. On my second day sober, I woke up feeling a bit under the weather...like I was coming down with some kind of mild flu and curled up on the couch wondering how I was going to get through this or if it would just be the same old same old. Upon further reflection, part of that was probably a bit of physical withdrawal...but a big part of it was a psychosomatic response...I more or less felt physically fine after that day except for maybe being a bit snippy and kind of lost as to what to do with myself since my brain wasn't being "entertained" by booze.
In talking to my therapist, severe withdrawal symptoms can occur...and you here about them a lot, but thankfully, they occur in only about 10% of heavy drinkers, most of whom are drinking sun up to sun down for many years. I was thankful to here that most drinkers, even fairly heavy drinkers experience only mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms.
At any rate, I think cognitive behavior therapy can help with many things, not just alcohol...smoking...food issues...gambling...you name it. And if you truly have issues, having a therapist to help you dig around in your brain is extremely helpful.
Really glad to hear this!
I have talked about my own alcohol misuse many times here, and also never label myself an alcoholic, or former alcoholic. AA rubbed me the wrong way - I too hate that powerless negative self-speak. I stopped going for myself rather quickly, but went with friends and family many times after that.
Not knocking AA for those who like it, but for those who don't, Smart Recovery uses CBT techniques and there are lots of online meetings these days.
https://www.smartrecovery.org/community/calendar.php?styleid=29
I have to say it's pretty awesome...90 days will be here soon.8 -
I think the word "Addiction" trips people up.
Just like alcohol and opiates, overeating is a coping mechanism. This is known. The largest study ever done on the long-term health effects of childhood trauma originated at an obesity clinic, the ACE study.
There are ways to become addicted to alcohol and opiates without having significant childhood trauma. It happens. If you have to take Vicodin every day for months to manage pain, you can become addicted. As far as I know, people don't develop compulsive eating habits that lead to obesity in this accidental way.
That's a significant difference.
But, your chances of becoming an alcoholic, an opium addict, a compulsive gambler or obese all increase significantly according to how much childhood trauma you were subject to.
For many people, overeating treats a problem that will not vanish with weight loss.
Who they are, how they feel all the time when they aren't overeating, is unbearable to them.
That makes it almost identical to an addiction. You can really only split hairs about how that unbearableness came to be and how we understand it physiologically.
But yes, there are people for whom not eating compulsively feels intolerable.
I think, if we can just understand that, quibbling about whether to call is an addiction is irrelevant.
When I was watching season 3 of "My 600 Pound Life" I noted that all of the patients had some sort of abuse or trauma in childhood.1 -
Ravencrow369 wrote: »As someone who literally writhed and gnashed teeth with perceived "want" of certain trigger foods I can say some days it feels harder than quitting smoking.
When quitting smoking I stopped going places people smoke, stopped hanging with people while they smoke, and they hide them behind closed doors in the shops now so I dont see them and they smell gross.
If only the same could be said for avoiding people who eat and while they eat and that cherry covered black forest cake in the bakery case looking and smelling so inviting on the way to the checkout.
Dont have to constantly plan life around avoiding smokers anymore 3 years later but have to look at food all the time and watch every bite. Ahh to become a Breathatarian...
Yes, when I stopped self-medicating with alcohol etc I was able to just never do it and avoid the friends and places I'd been doing it.
So much simpler!
It was also really easy to shut down my alcohol Addictive Voice but my food Addictive Voice is so much sneakier...0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Ravencrow369 wrote: »As someone who literally writhed and gnashed teeth with perceived "want" of certain trigger foods I can say some days it feels harder than quitting smoking.
When quitting smoking I stopped going places people smoke, stopped hanging with people while they smoke, and they hide them behind closed doors in the shops now so I dont see them and they smell gross.
If only the same could be said for avoiding people who eat and while they eat and that cherry covered black forest cake in the bakery case looking and smelling so inviting on the way to the checkout.
Dont have to constantly plan life around avoiding smokers anymore 3 years later but have to look at food all the time and watch every bite. Ahh to become a Breathatarian...
Yes, when I stopped self-medicating with alcohol etc I was able to just never do it and avoid the friends and places I'd been doing it.
So much simpler!
It was also really easy to shut down my alcohol Addictive Voice but my food Addictive Voice is so much sneakier...
With all due respect, I believe this is an oversimplication of addiction. My father and mother are/were both alcoholics and addicted to drugs. I use the past tense in the case of my mother because she committed suicide when I was nineteen—her overcoming addiction wasn’t as simple “as avoiding certain places or people.” (She had already disappeared years before then and abandoned us). My mother left behind four children—I was the oldest and with an alcoholic dad, I had to pick up the pieces of our already-shambles life. The show Shameless had nothing on us, in fact, a friend suggested I watch it because she found it hilarious. I couldn’t bear to get through the first few episodes—it’s not very comical when you’ve experienced it.
My dad eventually stopped doing drugs (heroine and crank) and drinking. Take it from a daughter who witnessed hardcore addiction and alcoholism firsthand and whose life has been permanently affected by it. People with food “addiction” don’t leave behind four kids because they like potato chips and Oreos. Sure, there are rare cases featured on shows like “600 lb. Life” but that is not the norm. If it came down to it and they knew their children were going to be taken away, Something tells me they’d figure out a way to change their behavior. I can see why people want to believe that giving up booze or drugs or whatever is so much easier than giving up food because as many on this debate have said “one has to live on food,” but the part that’s being left out of this equation is that a slip up on the former can cause death, either immediately or in the very short-term. If my father slips up and drinks, it can very very easily lead to his death. He has hepatitis C from years of addiction. If a person with a “food addiction” eats a bunch of ice cream, that slope can be curtailed and they have the option of getting back on track—highly unlikely that serious health consequences, let alone death will ensue.
I’m not claiming that food addiction doesn’t exist—I don’t have a degree in psychology to intelligently make that argument. But since this is a debate forum, I felt the need to say something concerning the notion that food addiction was somehow more difficult than drug and alcohol addiction because one could just change the environment. To me that is preposterous. If that’s the case, the person likely didn’t have an addiction to substances to begin with. (Detox is horrific is watch, and my mom, who gave birth to all four of us without epidural, left rehab many times simply because she couldn’t bear the medically monitored detox).
10 -
A few things at play here.
1. Addiction of any kind is a contentious subject, with many people looking down on addicts and viewing addiction as a moral failing or a weakness instead of an illness.
2. Many people who wouldn’t describe themselves as food addicts (and probably aren’t) have problematic relationships with food nonetheless. Those who have managed with great effort to maintain a reasonable weight might somehow feel like, because they were able to do it with the force of their will, everyone else should be able to as well. “I love/live for/am obsessed with food, too, but I’m not fat.” There’s an element of envy. Here they are putting in the work, and they see an overweight person eating with abandon and using what they feel is an “excuse” - food addiction - to justify it. They feel it somehow undermines their own efforts.
3. A degree of gate keeping from other addicts who battled a chemical addiction. I’ve noticed many addicts seem to view their drug of choice as THE hardest to be addicted to and hardest to kick. They scoff at the idea of someone struggling mightily with what they view as a lesser addiction.7 -
Ravencrow369 wrote: »As someone who literally writhed and gnashed teeth with perceived "want" of certain trigger foods I can say some days it feels harder than quitting smoking.
When quitting smoking I stopped going places people smoke, stopped hanging with people while they smoke, and they hide them behind closed doors in the shops now so I dont see them and they smell gross.
If only the same could be said for avoiding people who eat and while they eat and that cherry covered black forest cake in the bakery case looking and smelling so inviting on the way to the checkout.
Dont have to constantly plan life around avoiding smokers anymore 3 years later but have to look at food all the time and watch every bite. Ahh to become a Breathatarian...
Yeah to me stopping eating certain foods is harder than stopping drinking so idk. I just can't moderate chocolate or potato chips - but I "gave up" wine last fall. I was an almost daily drinker, and now I have no problem having a glass or two of wine once in a while, and then not thinking about it again another couple of weeks. With me drinking wine was more of a habit that I associated with things, and once that habit was broken I don't crave it or anything. Certain foods on the other hand I do. Like I can have one glass of wine and stop, but I will eat all the chocolate until it is gone.
Blessedly, it sounds like you weren’t an alcoholic when you gave up wine. Otherwise, you would not be able to simply take it or leave it. The physical need and the withdrawal symptoms for an alcoholic drying out are truly terrible and painful.
I love certain foods and have trouble moderating them. But that doesn’t make me addicted. I just really limit them and don’t generally think about them. Finding good substitutions has worked well for me.6 -
All i know is I could be eating to the point of being painfully full and thinking about what I'm going to eat next. If that isn't addict behavior, I dunno what is.4
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CorvusCorax77 wrote: »All i know is I could be eating to the point of being painfully full and thinking about what I'm going to eat next. If that isn't addict behavior, I dunno what is.
It’s a sign of a problem behavior, not a hallmark of addiction. There is likely a psychological driver (or two) behind your (seemingly) binge eating. Addictive behaviors impact most facets of a person’s life. The addiction is the most important and only thing. It is all-consuming. Eating so much food and not leaving enough for others, eating to the point of not working or socializing (or being functional enough to do so), buying food to the point of bankruptcy—all due to the inability to do anything else. That is the what addiction does to people. It can literally ruin their lives and take everyone and everything from them.
I’ve struggled with food, certain foods, at times. But I am in no way addicted to them.
As some of you know from previous posts, I am solidly in the “food is not an addiction” camp. Having worked with addicts in recovery, “food addiction” is not a thing in the same way. Many of us have bad habits around food. 🙋🏻♀️ And there are some treatments used for both food issues and addictions. But that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing. Not being addicted doesn’t necessarily mean someone can just wake up one day and say, I’m done with chocolate (or 🍟 in my case). It also doesn’t mean it’s simple or that it won’t take work.
But it does mean we’re starting from a different place than an addict and it doesn’t involve chemical, physical withdrawal symptoms. Even when we have cravings. I have cravings. And I promise, it’s not the same as the cravings of someone coming off heroine has who just wants another hit. We need to learn different behaviors and don’t have to overcome the same barriers as an addict. Including being an addict for life.
And eating disorders are not treated in the same way as addictions. Different class of behaviors.6 -
CorvusCorax77 wrote: »All i know is I could be eating to the point of being painfully full and thinking about what I'm going to eat next. If that isn't addict behavior, I dunno what is.
It’s a sign of a problem behavior, not a hallmark of addiction. There is likely a psychological driver (or two) behind your (seemingly) binge eating. Addictive behaviors impact most facets of a person’s life. The addiction is the most important and only thing. It is all-consuming. Eating so much food and not leaving enough for others, eating to the point of not working or socializing (or being functional enough to do so), buying food to the point of bankruptcy—all due to the inability to do anything else. That is the what addiction does to people. It can literally ruin their lives and take everyone and everything from them.
I’ve struggled with food, certain foods, at times. But I am in no way addicted to them.
As some of you know from previous posts, I am solidly in the “food is not an addiction” camp. Having worked with addicts in recovery, “food addiction” is not a thing in the same way. Many of us have bad habits around food. 🙋🏻♀️ And there are some treatments used for both food issues and addictions. But that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing. Not being addicted doesn’t necessarily mean someone can just wake up one day and say, I’m done with chocolate (or 🍟 in my case). It also doesn’t mean it’s simple or that it won’t take work.
But it does mean we’re starting from a different place than an addict and it doesn’t involve chemical, physical withdrawal symptoms. Even when we have cravings. I have cravings. And I promise, it’s not the same as the cravings of someone coming off heroine has who just wants another hit. We need to learn different behaviors and don’t have to overcome the same barriers as an addict. Including being an addict for life.
And eating disorders are not treated in the same way as addictions. Different class of behaviors.
Yes, I think sometimes this conversation is heard as "If you're not addicted, then you also can't have disordered eating or problems around regulating your food intake." As you explain here, that's not at all what I think people are saying. Something can be a real problem for someone and not necessarily be an addiction. Many people who have or had excess weight have what I would call "food problems." Many people who don't have excess weight probably have food problems too.2 -
Why is food addiction so controversial? Because whichever side you land on, someone gets offended.
If I say I have a food addiction, everyone who has been involved with a chemical addiction is immediately offended because I dared trivialize their experience by comparing it to my own. When they say I don't have an addiction, they are offending me by trivializing my very-real-to-me problem as nothing.
It seems like we should be able to reach a compromise where a perceived food addiction is recognized as something real that needs to be resolved while still acknowledging that it is not as intense as a chemical addiction.
What I used to call a food addiction, I now believe is actually Binge Eating Disorder (yes, I know, I should confirm that with my Dr). Hopefully, by giving it a more accurate name, I can address that issue without offending those with different issues.3 -
Certain food combinations do cause feelings of being high. If you’ve ever done a “whole food diet” and then went back to eating cookies and chips you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about. If you’ve never experienced this - maybe you’re wired differently than other people but for those of us who do experience it - it’s very, very real. I’ve done more drugs than I care to admit (a lot) in my younger days and have drank my fair share of alcohol (a lot) - but I have never sought out anything like I do specific foods. I have never felt any sort of addictive (physical or mental) urges when it comes to drugs or alcohol - but I have with specific foods. It feels exactly the same as anyone with any other sort of addiction describes it.
So regardless of if anyone believes in food addiction or not - it doesn’t change my reality and my experience. Someone not believing in it doesn’t offend me in the least - I just know they don’t deal with the same issues I do and I’m glad for them. No one would be able to convince me it isn’t real or that it’s something else because I live with it. I wouldn’t argue about it because why? For me, it says more about a person trying to deny someone of their reality and struggle than it ever will about the person struggling.
Is there a mental aspect to it? Definitely. Willpower? Discipline? Of course. Just like other addictions that can be overcome. No addiction is hopeless and nearly every addiction begins with a choice. No one can decide another persons reality or experience and anyone trying to is not a person I’d like to know.
I guess I would ask, if someone acknowledges that one can have strong urges to consume certain foods or quantities of foods and that those urges can be detrimental to one's quality of life and require concerted work or even professional help to overcome, to what extent are they denying your reality if they simply don't think "addiction" is the most fitting way to describe it?
I think there are ways to challenge the "addiction" concept for food issues without denying someone's experience.4
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