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What are your thoughts on Keto?
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When exploring different options, I looked at keto and knew a few that found initial success. Personally it wouldn’t be sustainable long term. I have watched most of those, I know, that have done keto try and move back to incorporating healthy carbs and they saw the number on the scale and clothing size increase.0
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NotEveryoneIsHome wrote: »
There is no way you can convince me that missing out on all this ⬆️ goodness and instead feast on pig's flesh, butter, and cheese is in any way good for me
IMU, keto folks are not going to miss out on "all that goodness". Some of what's in the photo is relatively low carb, and keto folks interested in overall nutrition would eat those.
I say this as emphatically *not* a keto practitioner (I eat 200g+ carbs every day, and many, many veggies/fruits). But misrepresenting sensible versions of other people's eating preferences doesn't seem like the way to persuade, to me.
Sure, some keto-ers avoid vegetables, but so do some omnivores. 🤷♀️4 -
NotEveryoneIsHome wrote: »
It wasn't the carbs that made the scale and clothing size increase, it was a caloric surplus
While I can appreciate that could be true, I am not someone that believes that CICO is the whole story. How our bodies use and store what we eat is just as important, if not more in some cases, especially if there has been extreme limitations placed on your diet.
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NotEveryoneIsHome wrote: »NerdyScienceGrl wrote: »When exploring different options, I looked at keto and knew a few that found initial success. Personally it wouldn’t be sustainable long term. I have watched most of those, I know, that have done keto try and move back to incorporating healthy carbs and they saw the number on the scale and clothing size increase.
It wasn't the carbs that made the scale and clothing size increase, it was a caloric surplus
There's going to be an immediate water weight increase when upping carbs from keto levels, but other than that, yes, I agree.
I think what happens is that many who do keto may not have figured out how to eat the right number of cals for maintenance, so they stop ketoing and end up eating too many cals again. This happens to anyone who doesn't figure out how to maintain, but in many cases someone doing keto won't have been tracking cals, so changing one's way of eating dramatically may result in a lot more cals without them necessarily noticing it.
I don't think eating low carb makes you unable to ever eat carbs again without gaining, of course.3 -
Without writing a long drawn out message, CICO does not take into account food types and how our bodies use it. So, in theory, you could eat any diet you want as long as your in a deficit. In other words, I should be able to eat 2000 calories of McDonalds and Doritos and have the same outcome as eating 2000 calories of a healthy diet. Acknowledging we are all different, I guarantee you given the McDonalds v healthy diet example, I’d not only gain weight but I’d gain it as belly fat eating McDonalds and Doritos.
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I agree it doesn’t mean you can never eat carbs again. The theory and purpose behind keto (my understanding… at least) is to lower carbs and to put yourself in ketosis. This changes the type of energy burned from glucose to ketones and body fat. Once off keto, if you drop some of the high fats which are high calorie and replace it with carbs (CICO), your body shifts back to burning glucose first. It causes water weight gain, but also creates insulin spikes which if not burned fast enough kicks your body into fat storage. Reintroducing carbs slowly, from what I have researched, works to keep weight off, but fully replacing calories from fat/protein with carbs can create weight gain, esp in those that are carb sensitive.1
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NerdyScienceGrl wrote: »I agree it doesn’t mean you can never eat carbs again. The theory and purpose behind keto (my understanding… at least) is to lower carbs and to put yourself in ketosis. This changes the type of energy burned from glucose to ketones and body fat. Once off keto, if you drop some of the high fats which are high calorie and replace it with carbs (CICO), your body shifts back to burning glucose first. It causes water weight gain, but also creates insulin spikes which if not burned fast enough kicks your body into fat storage. Reintroducing carbs slowly, from what I have researched, works to keep weight off, but fully replacing calories from fat/protein with carbs can create weight gain, esp in those that are carb sensitive.
In reality, though, keto works the same way as any weight loss diet (if you use it to lose weight)--by creating a deficit.
The stuff about burning fat vs sugar is often misunderstood. We all burn fat throughout the day, and will burn net fat if in a deficit no matter what we eat (one should obviously eat a healthy diet for health reasons, though). Someone doing keto will eat far fewer carbs and thus mostly burn fat, but they don't lose for that reason, will gain if they eat fat in a surplus, and will burn the same amount of net fat as someone with an equal deficit not doing keto. So if they switch from keto to high carb, they will (other than water weight) not gain so long as they eat the right number of cals. No one at a deficit can't lose fat bc of insulin after eating carbs. For health reasons some people with insulin resistance or T2D might be better off cutting down on carbs and making sure to pair them with fiber and protein, of course.
There are people here who do keto to lose but eat non keto at maintenance. Psulemon is one, and I tend to eat low carb when at a deficit and otherwise more moderate carb when not at a deficit. I tried keto for a while as an experiment when maintaining, and it didn't change the cals I maintained at.7 -
Soooo what mechanism in my body knows McDonalds is McDonalds instead of calories, fat, sodium, from other sources, and causes differentiation in where it deposits the fat? How can it tell the difference between McDonalds and 2000 calories of bacon (also high fat and high sodium?) Is it magic? The answer is magic isn't it?
It is for sure less healthy but I am pretty confident it doesn't magically make body fat happen, much less specifically belly fat. Maybe bloating, though, because that crap has no fiber and a lot of sodium, but still.
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NerdyScienceGrl wrote: »I agree it doesn’t mean you can never eat carbs again. The theory and purpose behind keto (my understanding… at least) is to lower carbs and to put yourself in ketosis. This changes the type of energy burned from glucose to ketones and body fat. Once off keto, if you drop some of the high fats which are high calorie and replace it with carbs (CICO), your body shifts back to burning glucose first. It causes water weight gain, but also creates insulin spikes which if not burned fast enough kicks your body into fat storage. Reintroducing carbs slowly, from what I have researched, works to keep weight off, but fully replacing calories from fat/protein with carbs can create weight gain, esp in those that are carb sensitive.
In reality, though, keto works the same way as any weight loss diet (if you use it to lose weight)--by creating a deficit.
The stuff about burning fat vs sugar is often misunderstood. We all burn fat throughout the day, and will burn net fat if in a deficit no matter what we eat (one should obviously eat a healthy diet for health reasons, though). Someone doing keto will eat far fewer carbs and thus mostly burn fat, but they don't lose for that reason, will gain if they eat fat in a surplus, and will burn the same amount of net fat as someone with an equal deficit not doing keto. So if they switch from keto to high carb, they will (other than water weight) not gain so long as they eat the right number of cals. No one at a deficit can't lose fat bc of insulin after eating carbs. For health reasons some people with insulin resistance or T2D might be better off cutting down on carbs and making sure to pair them with fiber and protein, of course.
There are people here who do keto to lose but eat non keto at maintenance. Psulemon is one, and I tend to eat low carb when at a deficit and otherwise more moderate carb when not at a deficit. I tried keto for a while as an experiment when maintaining, and it didn't change the cals I maintained at.
When I was first trying to get into a deficit, and now when I'm not doing a maintenance period, I am definitely lower carb. The cause/effect (for me is backward, though). I don't intentionally low carb for weight loss. I weight loss and if I'm going to give up food it's going to be the 'filler' parts of my meals. Which are... usually carbs. I'm also kind of fat heavy when doing the deficit. Because fat's satiating for me. Nowhere near keto diet levels though.
(I know you aren't disagreeing, your post just made me consciously realize)1 -
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NotEveryoneIsHome wrote: »
There is no way you can convince me that missing out on all this ⬆️ goodness and instead feast on pig's flesh, butter, and cheese is in any way good for me
YUM !!!
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Unforturnately GENETICS has more to do with diabetes and high cholesterol than diet.@janejellyroll Actually, if you read many people who post against keto or offer their advice on keto, even in this thread alone, say it's just one of many options to get a calorie deficit. I'm saying it's more than just calorie deficit or weight loss related. My Mom is not overweight. Skinny and active. She does not overeat. Eats way more fruits and vegies than the average person. Yet she has diabetes and high cholesterol. My autoimmune disease has a terrible inflammatory component. Two weeks back on keto, without having lost enough weight for that to have an impact, and my inflammation is way down. The effect of very low carb on your liver health, etc are more than just secondary to weight loss.
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Almost unlikely to build muscle on a keto plan. The signaling pathway for growth NEEDS a good amount of carbs to activate it (mTOR) and keto doesn't do that.trentontamura wrote: »There have been studies that show Keto can boost mental alertness, increase energy, and assist in burning excess body fat. That being said, any caloric deficit diet will result in weight loss. I do think if you are serious about weight loss, and want to be hardcore about it, Keto is the way to go. I can speak from experience. I tried to do a Keto bulk, I weighed 165lbs and wanted to get to 175lbs. I took in my weight in grams of protein and stuck with 70%fat, 25%protein, 5%carbs. I was taking in between 2,800 and 3,100 calories a day on Keto... 4 weeks in I had lost 6.5 lbs and gained muscle mass, somehow my shirts were fitting tighter, but my fat and weight was decreasing... I’m still going strong on Keto, I’ll see what happens in another couple weeks. But it’s definitely an effective fat loss diet.
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My big take on keto....................people who are overweight who CANNOT control eating carbs do it. Because if they could control carbs................I highly doubt they would cut them out.
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NerdyScienceGrl wrote: »Without writing a long drawn out message, CICO does not take into account food types and how our bodies use it. So, in theory, you could eat any diet you want as long as your in a deficit. In other words, I should be able to eat 2000 calories of McDonalds and Doritos and have the same outcome as eating 2000 calories of a healthy diet. Acknowledging we are all different, I guarantee you given the McDonalds v healthy diet example, I’d not only gain weight but I’d gain it as belly fat eating McDonalds and Doritos.
I think you're conflating the roles of calorie intake, nutritional adequacy, and food choice. (I agree that all of those can be important for weight management, body composition, and health.)
In your researches, perhaps you didn't run across John Cisna, the Iowa high school science teacher who ate nothing but McDonald's food, 3 meals a day, for 180 days . . . and lost 60 pounds, plus improved his health markers (cholesterol, blood pressure, etc.) It was an experiment, a sort of challenge to 3 of his students, who were aiming at college then medical careers.
A bit more info:Cisna left it up to his students to plan his daily menus, with the stipulation that he could not eat more than 2,000 calories a day and had to stay within the FDA's recommended daily allowances for fat, sugar, protein, carbohydrates and other nutrients. A local McDonald's franchisee agreed to provide the meals.
From: https://www.al.com/entertainment/2015/08/meet_the_science_teacher_who_l.html
There are progress photos of him, some other info, and some good commentary about what it means, at https://niashanks.com/teacher-lost-weight-eating-mcdonalds/
There has also been a Twinkie diet, undertaken by a nutrition professor, Mark Haub, from Kansas State (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html). He didn't eat *just* Twinkies, but also Oreos, Doritos, sugary cereal, etc. He did add a daily vitamin & protein shake, plus usually something like a can of green beans or some celery. His HDL ("good cholesterol") went up, his LDL ("bad cholesterol") and triglycerides went down, he lost 27 pounds, overweight to healthy BMI. (He pretty much admits it was a stunt.)
Then there was a guy on MFP, dvdgzz, who ate pretty shocking things at a targeted calorie goal, while trying to cover the nutritional bases - talking sugary cereals, pizza for breakfast, fast food, etc. Because he was very active, he had a high calorie intake, though he sometimes aimed protein on the low side compared to what many would recommend for his bodybuilding goals. Unfortunately, his very good thread in the Community here eventually got deleted because people couldn't play nice while posting, but over the long haul he lost weight as expected based on his calorie intake, and built some really dramatic muscle mass. His before photo, which is still around here somewhere, is a normal kinda pudgy-looking guy; his long-term results included major muscle mass and a lean physique.
Here's a sample day:01/19/12 total calories 2209 deficit: 893 RDI(%) Fat(g) Carbs(g) Prot(g)
74 126.78 211.13 70.39 2209
Breakfast: 1 serving 14" Large Italian Sausage & Red Onion Hand-Tossed Style Pizza
Lunch
2 3/4 servings gordos hot cheese dip
2 servings on the border chips
Dinner
1 serving diet coke
1 serving hash brown
1 serving sausage and egg mcmuffin
Snacks / Other
3/4 cup 1% milk
1 serving Cinnamon Cake Donut
1 1/4 servings gordos hot cheese dip
2 servings on the border chips
That's from his food log in the bodybuilding.com forums, where you can also see many more days of his food log, plus a photo of his physique at that point: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141807961&p=822484731#post822484731
Now, lots of that is just stunt-like, not something it would be sensible for everyone to do forever. But there's plenty of perfectly reasonable research suggesting that calorie balance is the determinant of body weight, that reasonable body weight is a truly major factor in health, and that bodies are pretty adaptable when it comes to specific food choice. I don't think anyone rational will argue that good overall nutrition is unimportant for health, but as wunderkindking helpfully observed above, your body can't really tell protein from a Big Mac apart from protein from wild-caught salmon from pristine waters, once it's being metabolized.6 -
If you are overweight, obese, or T2D cutting carbs and fasting is your treatment.
Keto is the most extreme way to cut carbs. Intermittant and 24-72 hr water fasting give your fatty liver and pancreas time to repair and heal.
ALL overweight, obese, and T2D people have fatty liver which is the cause of insulin resistance. It's a simple process:
years of excess carbs -> high basal insulin and spikes -> obesity -> fatty liver -> ever increasing insulin resistance -> T2D -> strokes, heart attacks, blindness, kidney failure, dementia, amputations, ED, cancer, etc -> early death
The problem with keto is that it's very limiting and boring. Plus, carbs are delicious. I prefer to follow these guidlines:
Phase 1 (Induction). This phase allows for 20–25 grams of net carbs per day until you are 15 pounds (7 kg) from your goal weight.
Phase 2. During this phase, you consume 25–50 grams of net carbs per day until you are 10 pounds (5 kg) from your goal weight.
Phase 3. Your net carb allowance is raised to 50–80 grams per day until you have met your goal weight and maintained it for 1 month.
Phase 4. During the final phase, you consume 80–100 grams of net carbs per day for ongoing weight maintenance.
For T2Ds I recommend "eating to your glucometer".
You're always great entertainment.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Actually SCIENTIFICALLY it is CICO. And it's not that hard to figure out what macro is used most for building muscle or direct energy need and what is stored for future energy needs for the AVERAGE healthy person.NerdyScienceGrl wrote: »NotEveryoneIsHome wrote: »
It wasn't the carbs that made the scale and clothing size increase, it was a caloric surplus
While I can appreciate that could be true, I am not someone that believes that CICO is the whole story. How our bodies use and store what we eat is just as important, if not more in some cases, especially if there has been extreme limitations placed on your diet.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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