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Fitness and diet myths that just won't go away
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I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?4 -
Only because that article about an upcoming study seemed to strike me as having an agenda in the language they used - I randomly selected some of the referenced studies.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12835290/
3 x 24hr recalls of food eaten 5x in a year from almost 500 people - free-living test not a diet, just a study survey.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5657289/
Similar - just survey, no diet.
Perhaps someone else can see if any of the references are actually about calorie controlled situations - since that is the whole point of that myth.
Oops - yeah maybe I didn't dig deep enough into those. I will when I get time because I am curious about it now.0 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
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breakfast does not even mean morning, its literally breaking a fast. history engrained people with morning and breakfast.
Many words and phrases have meanings that have evolved over the years, and do not necessarily align with their origin. In common modern English usage, breakfast has come to refer to a morning meal, eaten soon after waking.3 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
Probably because for some people eating more in the morning gives them more energy thus they exercise more unconsciously. I doubt it would make any different if the activity level was kept the exact same.7 -
In theory eat in the morning, fuel your day, increase NEAT, taper off to a quieter evening and better sleep makes perfect sense to me.
In reality I'm not hungry in the morning and I'm GOING to eat in the evening regardless.
I suspect I'm not alone.
That said about 90% of the reason I do a casual/informal/flexible IF is because healthy weight now or not, I still want the 1,000 calorie dinner. I can have it this way. Without going over because I didn't eat breakfast I didn't want anyway.6 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
So following that logic, if I eat at a surplus, but eat early in the day, I'll lose weight, and, likewise, if I eat at a deficit, but eat late in the day I'll gain weight? Makes zero sense...2 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
So following that logic, if I eat at a surplus, but eat early in the day, I'll lose weight, and, likewise, if I eat at a deficit, but eat late in the day I'll gain weight? Makes zero sense...
No, they're saying that you will burn more calories if the calories you eat are eaten early in the day. It isn't a surplus. It's that your TDEE will go up some, probably via NEAT, if your calories are front loaded to early in the day.
Which makes sense.
I'm not going to do it, but it makes sense.1 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
There have been some discussions here about this in Debate previously, with actual studies (not just study announcements) linked. (If I remembered details, I'd link those discussions FYI, but I don't remember enough to even run a search.)
IIRC, the studies tended to have limitations similar to those heybales mentioned, things like relying on food diaries (which have been demonstrated in yet other studies to be unreliable), or have looked at eating patterns that are common in obesity (so correlative, speculating about causes). Even in the diary studies, any statistical differences in weight loss were IIRC fairly small, unlikely to outweigh compliance with calorie goal for people who have a strong eating pattern preference.
Revealing my personal biases: I'm a breakfast eater, often 25-30% of my calories, in an overall irregular meal pattern that almost always includes a decent-sized dinner, and (if anything) lightens mid-day eating. I'm for sure not team "skip breakfast or go tiny".2 -
Keto.3
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Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
Probably because for some people eating more in the morning gives them more energy thus they exercise more unconsciously. I doubt it would make any different if the activity level was kept the exact same.
That's probably part of it, but they also seem to suggest that circadian rhythms have some effects on energy expenditure, metabolism and nutrition uptake as well.
I've been trying to read more into it but there is a lot of data, and I don't understand a lot of it when it gets into specific biological processes. Some studies seem to suggest that it isn't the actual "clock" time of eating that is important, but the relationship to one's on personal biological clock with relation to melatonin secretion, which is variable by person it seems.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5657289/
Not sure how much an a real life impact it would have, but it's interesting none the less.0 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
So following that logic, if I eat at a surplus, but eat early in the day, I'll lose weight, and, likewise, if I eat at a deficit, but eat late in the day I'll gain weight? Makes zero sense...
Not sure how you got that from what I posted.
Yes if you eat in a surplus you will gain weight, if you eat in a deficit you will lose weight.
The studies I am looking delve a little deeper into the biological processes involved. If you aren't interested in that kind of nuance then why not just move on by and skip the sarcasm?1 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
There have been some discussions here about this in Debate previously, with actual studies (not just study announcements) linked. (If I remembered details, I'd link those discussions FYI, but I don't remember enough to even run a search.)
IIRC, the studies tended to have limitations similar to those heybales mentioned, things like relying on food diaries (which have been demonstrated in yet other studies to be unreliable), or have looked at eating patterns that are common in obesity (so correlative, speculating about causes). Even in the diary studies, any statistical differences in weight loss were IIRC fairly small, unlikely to outweigh compliance with calorie goal for people who have a strong eating pattern preference.
Revealing my personal biases: I'm a breakfast eater, often 25-30% of my calories, in an overall irregular meal pattern that almost always includes a decent-sized dinner, and (if anything) lightens mid-day eating. I'm for sure not team "skip breakfast or go tiny".
There are several studies linked to the article, which provided the hypothesis for the study announced.
I'm not going to link them all individually, if anyone is interested they are easy to find. I didn't vet all of the multiple studies, there are too many.
Observational studies have generally shown a link between later day eating and obesity, although whether that involves actual biological processes or strictly behaviors is where the debate comes in. But that is also where the "myth" part comes in, is it really a "myth"? Maybe not.
For the MFP cohort I would expect that a behavioral basis for it wouldn't apply, as calories counting is the norm.
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I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
There have been some discussions here about this in Debate previously, with actual studies (not just study announcements) linked. (If I remembered details, I'd link those discussions FYI, but I don't remember enough to even run a search.)
IIRC, the studies tended to have limitations similar to those heybales mentioned, things like relying on food diaries (which have been demonstrated in yet other studies to be unreliable), or have looked at eating patterns that are common in obesity (so correlative, speculating about causes). Even in the diary studies, any statistical differences in weight loss were IIRC fairly small, unlikely to outweigh compliance with calorie goal for people who have a strong eating pattern preference.
Revealing my personal biases: I'm a breakfast eater, often 25-30% of my calories, in an overall irregular meal pattern that almost always includes a decent-sized dinner, and (if anything) lightens mid-day eating. I'm for sure not team "skip breakfast or go tiny".
There are several studies linked to the article, which provided the hypothesis for the study announced.
I'm not going to link them all individually, if anyone is interested they are easy to find. I didn't vet all of the multiple studies, there are too many.
Observational studies have generally shown a link between later day eating and obesity, although whether that involves actual biological processes or strictly behaviors is where the debate comes in. But that is also where the "myth" part comes in, is it really a "myth"? Maybe not.
For the MFP cohort I would expect that a behavioral basis for it wouldn't apply, as calories counting is the norm.
The behavioral bias stuff being referenced is in things like not accurately recording and not accurately measuring. Ie: The records being kept are being kept by individuals who may or may not be honest (intentionally or otherwise) and may or may not be measured accurately.
I'm a lazy logger and I weigh nothing much and even then it's very half-arsed. End result: My calorie reporting in this sort of study would not be as accurate as Ann's.
And I don't think anyone here denies behavior impacts NEAT on the CO side of things.2 -
So the myth part would be for losing weight as I've often seen given as advice on MFP, obviously taken from elsewhere by the poster:
You need to eat a big breakfast, and a small dinner.
Many times it seems in the same breath is given the other myth - you need to stop eating after 6 pm.
"Need" - no.
For an individual, it may help.
As to why it may help, there could be many reasons behind that.
4 -
I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
There have been some discussions here about this in Debate previously, with actual studies (not just study announcements) linked. (If I remembered details, I'd link those discussions FYI, but I don't remember enough to even run a search.)
IIRC, the studies tended to have limitations similar to those heybales mentioned, things like relying on food diaries (which have been demonstrated in yet other studies to be unreliable), or have looked at eating patterns that are common in obesity (so correlative, speculating about causes). Even in the diary studies, any statistical differences in weight loss were IIRC fairly small, unlikely to outweigh compliance with calorie goal for people who have a strong eating pattern preference.
Revealing my personal biases: I'm a breakfast eater, often 25-30% of my calories, in an overall irregular meal pattern that almost always includes a decent-sized dinner, and (if anything) lightens mid-day eating. I'm for sure not team "skip breakfast or go tiny".
There are several studies linked to the article, which provided the hypothesis for the study announced.
I'm not going to link them all individually, if anyone is interested they are easy to find. I didn't vet all of the multiple studies, there are too many.
Observational studies have generally shown a link between later day eating and obesity, although whether that involves actual biological processes or strictly behaviors is where the debate comes in. But that is also where the "myth" part comes in, is it really a "myth"? Maybe not.
For the MFP cohort I would expect that a behavioral basis for it wouldn't apply, as calories counting is the norm.
I've looked at some of them in the past. I did read the entire paper you linked.
The observational studies of later-day eating in the obese are the type I was talking about: That's a correlation. Causation is an assumption. The question of biological processes vs. behaviors isn't IMO hugely relevant, if we're talking about correlation that may not be causal. To give an intentionally absurd example: If we find that obese people tend to wear larger clothing sizes, do we assume that wearing larger sizes causes obesity? No, for obvious reasons. If it were that obese people wear red shirts more often, would we assume that causes obesity? Probably not. If it were that obese people disproportionately consume their excess calories in the evening, should we assume that causes obesity? Maybe . . . but personally, I'm going to need more than the correlation. The correlation is provocative, interesting.
Also, yes, if calorie counting with reasonable accuracy, and compliant, a lot of sources of random variation are taken out of the situation. The studies don't usually include those conditions, which presents problems for interpretation.
From what I've seen, it's an interesting possibility that eating timing matters in ad libitum (non-calorie-controlled) situations, and possible that front-loading calories in the day has advantages, in a statistical-probability sense. I certainly personally experience better overall appetite control if I eat a decent breakfast, with some good protein numbers. It's just that research I've seen so far has had non-definitive methodology . . . but more importantly, IMO, weight loss rate differences small enough that I think compliance/preference are more meaningful contributors to practical success than whatever biological mechanisms may be at work. That's a subjective observation, clearly: There are people who will start eating spicier foods or drinking ice water because of the probable ultra-few extra calories they may burn.
I agree that the eating timing studies are interesting, though. As a practical matter, I'd encourage people to run n=1 experiments, see how their appetite and energy seem to respond.
In practical terms, think it's a myth that breakfast is universally important to weight loss success, but I'm a hoary skeptic about a lot of things. 😉
ETA: Heybales said it better. As usual. 😆4 -
Well it's because the majority of people in the world work during daylight and sleep at night. And unless you're eating in your sleep or sleep like 3 hours a session, morning is usually when people break their fast.breakfast does not even mean morning, its literally breaking a fast. history engrained people with morning and breakfast.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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wunderkindking wrote: »I second the preference for reallocating breakfast calories, but in my case it's usually so I can have a larger dinner.
Which reminds me of the myth which says proper weight maintenance requires a person to consume the large majority of their calories before noon, with only a small dinner prior to bed.
Yet I've maintained my current weight for almost a decade, and almost without exception I consume over half of my daily calories in the late afternoon and evening timeframe.
It's not that you can't maintain your weight with a larger dinner, you can balance your calories on any eating schedule. But calories consumed at different times of the day are utilized differently, so theoretically you could eat more calories on a different schedule (example: larger breakfast) and still maintain the same weight. So meal timing does have implications for weight management.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5969247/
What?
"Recent studies in humans have shown that ingested calories are apparently utilised more efficiently in the morning than in the evening and this is manifest through improved weight loss, even under iso‐energetic calorie intake."
There have been some discussions here about this in Debate previously, with actual studies (not just study announcements) linked. (If I remembered details, I'd link those discussions FYI, but I don't remember enough to even run a search.)
IIRC, the studies tended to have limitations similar to those heybales mentioned, things like relying on food diaries (which have been demonstrated in yet other studies to be unreliable), or have looked at eating patterns that are common in obesity (so correlative, speculating about causes). Even in the diary studies, any statistical differences in weight loss were IIRC fairly small, unlikely to outweigh compliance with calorie goal for people who have a strong eating pattern preference.
Revealing my personal biases: I'm a breakfast eater, often 25-30% of my calories, in an overall irregular meal pattern that almost always includes a decent-sized dinner, and (if anything) lightens mid-day eating. I'm for sure not team "skip breakfast or go tiny".
There are several studies linked to the article, which provided the hypothesis for the study announced.
I'm not going to link them all individually, if anyone is interested they are easy to find. I didn't vet all of the multiple studies, there are too many.
Observational studies have generally shown a link between later day eating and obesity, although whether that involves actual biological processes or strictly behaviors is where the debate comes in. But that is also where the "myth" part comes in, is it really a "myth"? Maybe not.
For the MFP cohort I would expect that a behavioral basis for it wouldn't apply, as calories counting is the norm.
The behavioral bias stuff being referenced is in things like not accurately recording and not accurately measuring. Ie: The records being kept are being kept by individuals who may or may not be honest (intentionally or otherwise) and may or may not be measured accurately.
I'm a lazy logger and I weigh nothing much and even then it's very half-arsed. End result: My calorie reporting in this sort of study would not be as accurate as Ann's.
And I don't think anyone here denies behavior impacts NEAT on the CO side of things.
For behaviour as it applies to the observational studies I was thinking more like the food and exercise choices of the participants which would influence the correlation between obesity and later food intake. So if you did a random retrospective analysis of peoples weight and food timing you might come up with the obesity correlation, but would need to account for behavioural factors to determine how much (if any) of the causation is biological in nature.
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Or that people wanting to claim they do Tabata when in essence it's nothing more than actual interval training. And they get pissed off when you say they really aren't doing Tabata. Lol, Tabata protocol for 30 minutes as some claim.
So, so may things about HIIT: That you should do it daily, that it inevitably burns more calories in total, that the EPOC is extra-super glorious, that useful research findings about actual traditional CV HIIT apply to anything any trainer happens to want to call "HIIT", that everyone should do it every day . . . .
But yeah, so many uniformed trainers just following the lead of another uniformed trainer.
There's a guy on YOUTUBE right how who advertises like hell and has so much broscience on all his videos. And people are eating it up. Vince Sant is his name and he host V Shred. Avoid.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
V Shred is a nightmare.0 -
"The fat burning zone isn't a thing."
It's a different thing than some people assume. A different thing is still a thing.3
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