Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Anyone else frustrated with the CICO mantra?
Options
clairesimpson4
Posts: 15 Member
You hear it all the time on diet plans, from your doctor, etc. But it's apparent simplicity is both misleading and unhelpful.
Yes, CICO is true(ish, there are exceptions) But that's answering the wrong question. The question of why someone is overweight is, given that most dieters already know this, why do some people eat too much?
I'm a scientist and I hate this CICO mantra being thrown around like it's something we haven't heard before. Its unhelpful. We don't tell alcoholics that they are alcoholics because they drink too much booze. The answer to the obesity crisis lies in answering the real question.
Yes, CICO is true(ish, there are exceptions) But that's answering the wrong question. The question of why someone is overweight is, given that most dieters already know this, why do some people eat too much?
I'm a scientist and I hate this CICO mantra being thrown around like it's something we haven't heard before. Its unhelpful. We don't tell alcoholics that they are alcoholics because they drink too much booze. The answer to the obesity crisis lies in answering the real question.
24
Replies
-
Well, offer us your solution.
CICO is simply a mathematical equation. There are no morals or psychological questions to be answered.
35 -
Not really, but gravity really bugs me lately. 😡28
-
Actually the mantra is extremely informative and freeing.
It frees you from thinking that you can only lose weight by exercising hard and often till you puke. Exercise is good of course; but not absolutely necessary in order to lose weight.
It frees you from thinking that you can only lose weight by eating "healthy" or "clean". Both are good things to do, of course; but not *necessary* in order to lose weight.
It frees you from thinking that you can only lose weight by eating low fat.
It frees you from thinking you can only lose weight by eating low carb.
It frees you from thinking you can only lose weight by eating on a specific time schedule or engaging in fasting, frequent eating, eating a certain amount of grams of protein per meal, or eating or not eating a certain amount of meals a day while rubbing your belly in one direction and your head in another.
It frees you from thinking you can only lose weight by engaging in some structured named eating plan.
It frees you from thinking you can only lose weight by buying some special food or supplement.
It is actually incredible how freeing it can be for some people who are wired that way to see how much they're paying in terms of calories for some of the choices they make.
The mantra is important because it tells people that they can adjust and make changes to their intake and to their activity over time and still reach their caloric goals.
The mantra does not purport to and cannot purport to address that CICO values are sometimes difficult to determine in the midst of potentially multiple sources of measurement errors and in the middle of adaptive body responses.
The martra does not purport to and cannot purport to address incorrect goal setting choices for one's current state, especially when not accompanied by a willingness and ability to effectively adjust. And by adjust I don't just mean always cutting calories.
The mantra does not purport to and cannot purport to address mental health, family, or the many other life issues and dynamics that are always liable to trip up one's ability and willingness to self care.73 -
@cmriverside did you read my post? I don't deny that CICO is true. I'm saying it's unhelpful to keep saying it to people over and over because we all know it. I don't have a solution, it's not my area of expertise. But the answer isn't to shrug our shoulders and dismiss the idea that it really is more complicated than that. We need more research. But you're wrong about where the problem lies. I refer to my alcoholic example again - telling an alcoholic not to drink so much doesn't help the person quit.
As an aside, a lot of medications cause weight gain, most often by increasing appetite. The opposite is also true - Saxenda for example works for weight loss partially by decreasing appetite. Hunger is part of the problem. Humans aren't designed to ignore it. It's why most diets fail.8 -
You say it is common knowledge and obvious, but there is a lot of misleading information that ties weight loss to something other than calories (clean eating, carbs etc). I don't think we DO all know it39
-
clairesimpson4 wrote: »The question of why someone is overweight is, given that most dieters already know this, why do some people eat too much?
Regardless of the myriad (and likely non-quantifiable) reasons why, the solution will still lie with calories.
As a scientist who likes inquiry may I suggest you read QBQ! The Question Behind the Question by John G. Miller.
It has been 20 years since the first publication but it's a short read that still stands the test of time.
10 -
It is very hard to lose weight and change habits, no one is saying it is easy. The way I read CICO is not to say that it is easy, just to simplify things when many people and advice is too hyper-focused on minuet details like how much lemon is in their water.14
-
Is hunger the reason most diets fail?
What about insufficient (or neglect of future) hunger management on the part of the person engaging in an excessive +for their current state+ level of caloric deficit?
Should more research be done in terms of that? Absolutely. But how is that of any consequence to CICO?
Or the myriad of other beliefs that ignore CICO in favor of engaging in the behavior that people think will make them lose weight... which of course backfires when it stops providing them with a negative caloric balance and/or when life forces them to give it up
You're talking about how hard it is to ensure that appropriate CICO levels, are implemented consistently and forever.
But claim to take the weight control mechanism as a known fact.
Yet I see lots of people believing that all it will take to lose weight is to eat in a specific manner without necessarily counting or being aware or reducing their calories.
Hey I was one of them, so it's not as if I have far to go to find a person who benefited from the CICO "revelation", that it and by itself *without anything else* is sufficient to control weight
And of course the revelation would have done me no good without a focus from the very beginning fairly early on as to how I would try to tackle maintenance11 -
I much prefer CICO to some fad diet. What I do think people sometimes get wrong is not understanding that there are some whose caloric needs and expenditures fall significantly outside the norm to where the expected numbers don’t necessarily work.
Also, hormones do play a role too. It is easy to chalk up gains due to hormonal issues as simply the person eating more or moving less but that’s not always the case. What about large amounts of water retention to the degree of 10% of their body weight? These things matter too.12 -
Actually the mantra is extremely informative and freeing.
It frees you from...
...
...The mantra does not purport to and cannot purport to address mental health, family, or the many other life issues and dynamics that are always liable to trip up one's ability and willingness to self care.
I would like to like this entire post once for every paragraph.20 -
Actually the mantra is extremely informative and freeing.
It frees you from...
...
...The mantra does not purport to and cannot purport to address mental health, family, or the many other life issues and dynamics that are always liable to trip up one's ability and willingness to self care.I would like to like this entire post once for every paragraph.
Seconded!
No, I am not frustrated with CICO. I find it freeing from all the garbage that makes losing weight a cluttered mess. And just for what it is worth, I have binge eating disorder; this is something that every professional will tell you you need therapy for, and it is heavily emotional, and there is an array of work that goes into fixing the issue. Now that is all true. But, BUT, by focusing on calories in, calories out, while I work on my binging issues as a separate health issue of it's own, I get to lose weight without having to examine my emotions whenever I eat. THAT is simplicity to me. It is exactly what I need.20 -
No it doesn't frustrate me, maybe sometimes I'd rather not pay attention and eat to abandon but then I wouldn't lose weight and I'd probably continue to over eat and gain weight because I really can't just eye ball my food and know a proper serving size or how many calories are in any given food. Until I can I'll follow CICO, because it has worked for me I've lost 51 lbs so far and no it's not easy because I constantly fought agaisn't counting calories but when I stopped fighting CICO I'm winning in losing.
What is your scientific solution? I'd love to know.8 -
Too many people believe or hope that there is some magic out there that will allow them to lose weight without having to do the work of paying close attention to what and how much they are eating. Look at all the posts about drugs, surgery, apple cider vinegar, etc. Many believe that a strict diet will do that, but don't understand that you can still eat too many calories on keto or IF or clean eating or being vegan. I would say that a lot of people really don't know that CICO is true. There are factors that will change how many calories you actually need but that can be figured out with time and careful tracking.17
-
My mother has tried every possible way to lose weight except CICO. She has been “trying to lose weight” for about seven decades now. In the meantime I lost weight, not by holding my mouth funny or denying myself my favorite foods, but by keeping track of my calories and activity and making sure they lined up.
It’s not true that everyone understands CICO. I feel like my mother and her friends regard weight loss almost as a religion. They feel they are sinners and deserve to be punished by being miserable, after which they will be rewarded by becoming skinny. It doesn’t work that way. Particularly when you only pretend to do the miserable part so others don’t judge you for being fat because they can see you are “trying to lose weight.”12 -
clairesimpson4 wrote: »You hear it all the time on diet plans, from your doctor, etc. But it's apparent simplicity is both misleading and unhelpful.
Yes, CICO is true(ish, there are exceptions) But that's answering the wrong question. The question of why someone is overweight is, given that most dieters already know this, why do some people eat too much?
I'm a scientist and I hate this CICO mantra being thrown around like it's something we haven't heard before. Its unhelpful. We don't tell alcoholics that they are alcoholics because they drink too much booze. The answer to the obesity crisis lies in answering the real question.
There are probably dozens, maybe even thousands of different answers to that question, depending on how specific you want to be.
Some of us became overweight not because CICO is an inadequate explanation but because without careful logging, it's really hard to know when CI = CO, CI > CO, or CI < CO. I gained my excess weight at an average excess of less than 40 calories a day. Many days I was probably eating less than my CO. But on average, week in and week out, I was having 1/2 cup of skim milk or half an egg or half an ounce of part-skim cheese too much.
11 -
I believe which calories you feed yourself matter. (macros, keto, high-protein, low-fat..whichever fits your needs) I also believe "when" you feed matters. (yep, I'm an IF advocate) Studies show groups simply counting calories lose less than those who follow IF eating the same calories (metabolism differences) *Not sure I'm allowed to link to the studies? will do if I can.... but at the end of the day yep, cico, kinda. (but I'd rather eat 1500 calories and lose 2 pounds a week, than eat the same amount and lose 1 pound. the food I eat and when I eat can influence the rate of loss) I'm sure other factors weigh in, like genetics, where you started, etc. (without counting all calories in/out 4 days a week....and strictly counting them 3 days a week..I'm down 34 pounds in just less than 3 months...adding that bit for the user above asking for 'scientific solution' lol)6
-
For terminology clarity, CICO is not calorie counting.
CICO is the calorie balance equation, an eating/bodyweight restatement of a basic principle of physics.
Calorie counting is a weight loss method that very directly uses the CICO principle as its main guide.
Calorie counting, like most other weight loss methods:
* Works better for some people, not as well for others, for a huge variety of reasons
* Has more complexities and nuances to successful utilization than it might appear at first glance
No, I'm not frustrated with the CICO "mantra".
Personally, I'm not frustrated with calorie counting, either, but I'm one of the people for whom it's been a useful, successful method, once I learned how to do it with reasonable effectiveness and efficiency.
Should I blame it that it doesn't work for everyone? Can you identify another method that does work for everyone, to lose weight, then maintain a healthy weight?17 -
clairesimpson4 wrote: »I'm saying it's unhelpful to keep saying it to people over and over because we all know it.
I disagree. From experience on this forum, "we" don't all know it, many people deny it or don't believe it, and think there's something wrong if they "eat healthy" and don't lose. I myself managed to gain eating pretty healthy (and in a somewhat neurotic way for some time similar to what is called "clean" by some).
Once one understands that CICO is what determines weight gain/loss/maintenance, one can figure out how one is not doing what one wants (usually how one is getting excess cals or too little movement or both) and if there's a why other than not thinking about what one eats, can identify that and come up with a strategy.I refer to my alcoholic example again - telling an alcoholic not to drink so much doesn't help the person quit.
As a first step it can. Often alcoholics refuse to believe they cannot control their drinking and will keep trying and trying. When I briefly did AA, a member told me "the main thing is, don't drink." That was actually helpful. There are also other things that help, and it varies person to person (as does weight loss strategy), but having a clear idea of what you need to do (for weight loss, to eat below X calories) is helpful.Hunger is part of the problem. Humans aren't designed to ignore it. It's why most diets fail.
I don't believe it's why most diets fail (I think humans eat plenty when not really hungry). If hunger is an issue often changing what you eat or when can help.17 -
Should I blame it that it doesn't work for everyone? Can you identify another method that does work for everyone, to lose weight, then maintain a healthy weight?
That's the million dollar question..."can you identify another method that does work for everyone, to lose weight, than maintain a healthy weight"
I really don't think you can name..only one. From personal experience I know long term keto followers that lost and are now maintaining, I know weight watcher friends who love their points, reached their goals and are maintaining, I know some that simply weighed/measured each day to keep within macros and are doing great ....everyone is different! (even though their actual "cico" didn't line up)
My question is..does there have to be just one way? Everyone's chemistry is different, lives are different, schedules are different. Some thrive on low-carb and lose/maintain...some thrive on 'points' and lose/maintain...others thrive on fasting and lose/maintain. Nobody is the same! I personally eat more calories now on IF than I did simply counting calories (and started at a lower weight where it should have been harder to lose) ...yet I'm losing more rapidly (and my doctor's blood tests etc are better than ever) Does that mean my way is the best way? Nope!! It means it works for me. It isn't ONLY cico...if I only count calories for a month...I lose less than if I do IF with the same or even more calories in. I've tried it. My personal metabolism reacts favorably to IF so...I rock it.
6 -
MerryFit519 wrote: »Should I blame it that it doesn't work for everyone? Can you identify another method that does work for everyone, to lose weight, then maintain a healthy weight?
That's the million dollar question..."can you identify another method that does work for everyone, to lose weight, than maintain a healthy weight"
I really don't think you can name..only one. From personal experience I know long term keto followers that lost and are now maintaining, I know weight watcher friends who love their points, reached their goals and are maintaining, I know some that simply weighed/measured each day to keep within macros and are doing great ....everyone is different! (even though their actual "cico" didn't line up)
My question is..does there have to be just one way? Everyone's chemistry is different, lives are different, schedules are different. Some thrive on low-carb and lose/maintain...some thrive on 'points' and lose/maintain...others thrive on fasting and lose/maintain. Nobody is the same! I personally eat more calories now on IF than I did simply counting calories (and started at a lower weight where it should have been harder to lose) ...yet I'm losing more rapidly (and my doctor's blood tests etc are better than ever) Does that mean my way is the best way? Nope!! It means it works for me. It isn't ONLY cico...if I count for a month...I lose less than if I do IF with the same or even more calories in. I've tried it. My personal metabolism reacts favorably to IF so...I rock it.
Of course it needn't all be one way.
Personalization is vital.
CICO is true: Energy balance is physics.
Calorie counting is another matter. Human bodies are dynamic, so yes, eating timing, what we eat, etc., can affect how much energy we expend, among other complexities. There are nuances in individual humans, and nuances in the methods.
The only reason I can see to be fussing about "the CICO mantra" in the terms stated in the OP is if s/he, who self-identifies as a scientist, is conflating CICO and calorie counting - which wouldn't be surprising, because that's common.
Asking "what one method works for everyone" was intended to imply that I think OP is oversimplifying, in saying "everyone says CICO, and most people know this".
Absolutely, CICO is not enough to lose weight. CICO is not a method or process or plan. To lose weight, a person needs a method, or a process, or a plan, or something along those lines. Personalization of methods, tactics, plans, is key to success.18
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.5K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 392 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 927 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions