Coronavirus prep
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rheddmobile wrote: »Also please explain Explain Israel. They are now on 4th round of vaccine shots in less than a year in a country with well over 90% fully vaccinated. The vaccinated are getting sick. Something is wrong with that picture. Again not allowed to bring that up in main stream media or else you are anti-fill in the blank.
If you look closely at the data from Israel their death rate right now compared to their infection rate is 1/4 ours. They are getting sick and their death rate is climbing, but it’s to be expected that more people will die when more people get sick. MOST are not dying, but every vaccine does have a failure rate.
This sort of question is answered every day in the news, which leads me to ask, is this a problem with reading comprehension or are you isolating yourself from mainstream news sources? At this point anyone who doesn’t know that the Delta variant is 1000 times more infectious than covid was this time last year doesn’t want to know that information and has made a conscious decision to
pretend not to know it. If you don’t want to know, why ask?
Just clarifying to prevent anyone from taking your statement literally, especially after comments about reading comprehension. I went to CDC, their statement on this point is "The Delta variant is more contagious: The Delta variant is highly contagious, more than 2x as contagious as previous variants." Here is the link:https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html
Perhaps the "1,000" comes from the increased viral load of Delta:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260122v2
We report the first local transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in mainland China. All 167 infections could be traced back to the first index case. Daily sequential PCR testing of the quarantined subjects indicated that the viral loads of Delta infections, when they first become PCR+, were on average ∼1000 times greater compared to A/B lineage infections during initial epidemic wave in China in early 2020, suggesting potentially faster viral replication and greater infectiousness of Delta during early infection.13 -
Also please explain Explain Israel. They are now on 4th round of vaccine shots in less than a year in a country with well over 90% fully vaccinated. The vaccinated are getting sick. Something is wrong with that picture. Again not allowed to bring that up in main stream media or else you are anti-fill in the blank.
Israel is no where near 90% fully vaccinated. Approximately 78% of those 12+ are vaccinated which is pretty good, but with such a young population, only 58% of the total population is vaccinated. That is far from herd immunity. The vaccinated are also getting sick at a far lower rate than the unvaccinated.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why18 -
kshama2001 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Also please explain Explain Israel. They are now on 4th round of vaccine shots in less than a year in a country with well over 90% fully vaccinated. The vaccinated are getting sick. Something is wrong with that picture. Again not allowed to bring that up in main stream media or else you are anti-fill in the blank.
If you look closely at the data from Israel their death rate right now compared to their infection rate is 1/4 ours. They are getting sick and their death rate is climbing, but it’s to be expected that more people will die when more people get sick. MOST are not dying, but every vaccine does have a failure rate.
This sort of question is answered every day in the news, which leads me to ask, is this a problem with reading comprehension or are you isolating yourself from mainstream news sources? At this point anyone who doesn’t know that the Delta variant is 1000 times more infectious than covid was this time last year doesn’t want to know that information and has made a conscious decision to
pretend not to know it. If you don’t want to know, why ask?
Just clarifying to prevent anyone from taking your statement literally, especially after comments about reading comprehension. I went to CDC, their statement on this point is "The Delta variant is more contagious: The Delta variant is highly contagious, more than 2x as contagious as previous variants." Here is the link:https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html
Perhaps the "1,000" comes from the increased viral load of Delta:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.07.21260122v2
We report the first local transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in mainland China. All 167 infections could be traced back to the first index case. Daily sequential PCR testing of the quarantined subjects indicated that the viral loads of Delta infections, when they first become PCR+, were on average ∼1000 times greater compared to A/B lineage infections during initial epidemic wave in China in early 2020, suggesting potentially faster viral replication and greater infectiousness of Delta during early infection.
Thank you @kshama2001 That is a possible connection to the actual number. As for how infectious, I assume that that viral load difference is somehow taken into account in the CDC's statement that it is twice as contagious.2 -
rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.23 -
rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.18 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
But, in their defense, this is how covid deaths are counted (at least here in Ontario). Public health units have publicly confirmed that if someone dies from any cause but has tested positive for covid in the last 30 days it counts as a covid death - which is kinda messed up if you ask me! Not sure if that is how things are counted there or not though?7 -
Muscleflex79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
But, in their defense, this is how covid deaths are counted (at least here in Ontario). Public health units have publicly confirmed that if someone dies from any cause but has tested positive for covid in the last 30 days it counts as a covid death - which is kinda messed up if you ask me! Not sure if that is how things are counted there or not though?
No, the doctor determines what caused the patient to die and that's listed as the cause of death. The numbers are generally generated from the death certificate in the US. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the death count, and most of them make no sense if you understand how the process has always worked. I don't know anything about Ontario, I'm not talking about what happens there.12 -
Muscleflex79 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
Spokesperson for the CDC stated just a week ago, "To date, CDC has not detected any unusual or unexpected patterns for deaths following immunization that would indicate that COVID vaccines are causing or contributing to deaths, outside of the 3 confirmed deaths following the Janssen vaccine."
For the poster to have known 2 of the 3 people who have died in the US from getting the vaccine seems like a stretch to me. I'm going to have to differ in opinion on this.
The poster who is claiming they know 2 people who have died from the COVID vaccine may be relying on VAERS, which is notoriously bad. As in claiming someone who dies in an auto accident a day or two after getting a vaccine is a vaccine related death.
Dying in an auto accident after getting a vaccine is tragic. But it’s not a result of the vaccine.
But, in their defense, this is how covid deaths are counted (at least here in Ontario). Public health units have publicly confirmed that if someone dies from any cause but has tested positive for covid in the last 30 days it counts as a covid death - which is kinda messed up if you ask me! Not sure if that is how things are counted there or not though?
I'm in Ontario and I can only speak for my own PHU, but all deaths here took place in either hospitals or LTC homes and they were caused by Covid.
Death count comes from the case reporting database which tracks every positive case from test to outcome. The majority have an outcome of "resolved". I supposed it's possible in a busy PHU that someone doing data cleanup was trying to find out what happened to a case left open, discovered the individual was dead (by some other means), and entered a result of "fatal", but I don't see that accounting for very many deaths.
Resolved cases are determined only for COVID-19 cases that have not died. Cases that have died
are considered fatal and not resolved. The following cases are classified as resolved:
Cases that are reported as ‘recovered’ in CCM
Cases that are not hospitalized and are 14 days past their episode date
Cases that are currently hospitalized (no hospital end date entered) and have a status of
‘closed’ in CCM (indicating public health unit follow-up is complete) and are 14 days past
their symptom onset date or specimen collection date
Deaths are determined by using the outcome field in CCM. Any case marked ‘Fatal’ is included in
the deaths data. The CCM field Type of Death is not used to further categorize the data.6 -
From what I've read elsewhere (but don't have a cite for), some of this "counting traffic deaths as Covid" confusion is fostered by misunderstandings of medical bureaucratese. (I'll leave it to the reader to consider whether the fostering is intentional, or not.)
When someone has Covid, many bad things happen physically. They may get blood clots, pneumonia, etc., as part of the progress of that Covid infection. If Covid-induced pneumonia kills them, the cause of death is Covid in one sense, the pneumonia in another sense.
IMU, as someone not in a medical profession, there are different rules in different places (US states, for example) about how death certificates are coded. There may be primary/secondary causes, etc. There exists bureaucratic technical language that describes how those forms are intended to be filled out. In some cases, that language will be the untidy, opaque kind of writing that we all love to hate, because it's murky and syntactically complex, maybe also relies on definitions in some other part of a regulation, or terms that have a technical meaning somewhat distinct from the common English usage, etc.
In this situation, that language can be quoted, misinterpreted or misrepresented, to suggest that if someone has a traffic crash after Covid, and dies from the injuries from that crash, the cause of death could be listed as Covid. The actual meaningful distinction is more analogous to whether the cause of death from the accident would be listed as the crash, or (say) the severing of a major artery when some car-part punctured through their torso or something like that.
As an intellectual exercise for non-specialists: Say someone gets Covid, symptomatically relatively mild, but experiences blood clots, which IMU can happen. If they're driving when a clot reaches a particularly critical point in their body, causes a brain or heart blockage (maybe because they have some pre-existing vulnerability to such a thing, even), and they crash their car as a consequence . . . a Covid death, or not?
(Personally, I don't care how that would be coded on the death certificate, because I'm betting something like that is rare enough not to significantly distort large-scale statistical analyses we care about. Just my opinion, though.)10 -
A week or so ago, someone posted a link to a video here. The title was natural immunity vs vaccines, and if I recall it is likely in response to my philosophical struggles. Anyhow, the video covered broader topics than the title implies and it gave me fodder for thought. Last weekend, with friends, I brought up the video, and outlined portion that discusses where and how vaccination doses might best be invested. Note, that I did not take a position on this topic, I just found the topic thought provoking and could make an interesting discussion. No discussion, just blowback was the response. OOOPs.
Anyhow, last night a suggested article popped up. It was a more thorough discussion of this point. Sharing here. This group is very diverse and I am interested in additional viewpoints on this topic. Enjoy!
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/18/1028941909/why-a-push-for-boosters-could-make-the-pandemic-even-worse
I don't think it's really a tradeoff. We are unlikely to be sending it all to the third world while there are so many unvaxxed people here, and there's no indication that we don't have enough to have it freely available to all currently unvaxxed and also available for people (especially older people) who might benefit from a booster. Also, my understanding for Pfizer at least was that part of the problem with sending it to the third world was the limited time frame it would be good and cold storage requirements, but that's a vague recollection from back when it was first coming out.5 -
rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, what is claimed is not possible.
This sort of deliberate misinformation is killing real people in the real world. Responsible social media forums are deleting it.23 -
rheddmobile wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, what is claimed is not possible.
This sort of deliberate misinformation is killing real people in the real world. Responsible social media forums are deleting it.
These were aquaintances, not close friends.
The first was very concerned about covid, he stayed home all year. Went out as soon as he was able to get vaccinated. He had a heart attack within 24 hours. I don't know his family history, but these vaccines do cause increased risk for heart attack.
The second, I don't know her cause of death - coworker of a family member. She was out already for knee surgery, so she was not in peak health. Sick in bed for a week, died. I don't know if she got an infection or something - but everyone in her life said she died as a result of the vaccine.4 -
Giulia Lucenti - 16 yr - Pfizer
Rosette Kyarikunda - med student - AZ
James Cooper - 77 yrs - death from 3rd shot (booster)
Mahima Mathew - 31 - AZ
Kim Jarvis - 57 yrs - death in sleep within 24 hours
These are just from September, just found with a quick search.1 -
Just because someone does shortly after getting a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused their death. It's possible, but just as likely that they got another illness or has a heart attack that would have happened anyway. There is not enough information there to say the vaccine caused their deaths. Likewise, it was explained by someone else on this thread about how the vaccine side affect reporting system requires reports of anything happening shortly after the vaccine regardless of whether the vaccine was related or not.18
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T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Just because someone does shortly after getting a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused their death. It's possible, but just as likely that they got another illness or has a heart attack that would have happened anyway. There is not enough information there to say the vaccine caused their deaths. Likewise, it was explained by someone else on this thread about how the vaccine side affect reporting system requires reports of anything happening shortly after the vaccine regardless of whether the vaccine was related or not.
That's true, in the same vein just because somebody dies "with" covid doesn't mean they died "from" covid, but we still count them as covid deaths. You can't count one way when it suits your fancy and refuse to use the same methodology for other things.4 -
ExistingFish wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Just because someone does shortly after getting a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused their death. It's possible, but just as likely that they got another illness or has a heart attack that would have happened anyway. There is not enough information there to say the vaccine caused their deaths. Likewise, it was explained by someone else on this thread about how the vaccine side affect reporting system requires reports of anything happening shortly after the vaccine regardless of whether the vaccine was related or not.
That's true, in the same vein just because somebody dies "with" covid doesn't mean they died "from" covid, but we still count them as covid deaths. You can't count one way when it suits your fancy and refuse to use the same methodology for other things.
I have heard that rumor, that people die from car wrecks with Covid, so it gets reported as a Covid death. If you go back a year+ in this thread, you might notice that this was discussed here. I don't recall where this was ever proven. Just because someone claims there were masses of misclassified deaths doesn't mean it actually happened.17 -
ExistingFish wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »I personally know no one in my life who has died from covid.
I have personal connections to two people who died from the covid vaccine.
Please be respectful of this when pushing the vaccine or denigrating those who choose not to take it.
The thing is, I don’t believe you, because so few people around the world have died following the vaccine that for a single person to know two of them is astronomically unlikely.
Exactly!
Not comfortable with calling each other liars here. We may have differing opinions, but I go in with the premise that, especially when people are making personal statements, they are telling the truth.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, what is claimed is not possible.
This sort of deliberate misinformation is killing real people in the real world. Responsible social media forums are deleting it.
These were aquaintances, not close friends.
The first was very concerned about covid, he stayed home all year. Went out as soon as he was able to get vaccinated. He had a heart attack within 24 hours. I don't know his family history, but these vaccines do cause increased risk for heart attack.
The second, I don't know her cause of death - coworker of a family member. She was out already for knee surgery, so she was not in peak health. Sick in bed for a week, died. I don't know if she got an infection or something - but everyone in her life said she died as a result of the vaccine.
So, in other words, you know zero people who have died from the vaccine. Glad you cleared that up.23 -
Just a little context on cause of death. My oldest sister had a double mastectomy at 38. At 54 she was diagnosed with lung, brain and adrenal cancer. Six weeks later, less than a week before radiation treatment for the brain cancer was going to begin, she died from pneumonia. Pneumonia was the official cause of death, but, the cancers, weakened her system.
Not related to the above. As far as the 3rd shot for covid goes, my husband was hospitalized in late May for 5 days. Blood clots in his knee area traveled to his lungs. We had our second Moderna shot in April. No family history of blood clots. The doctor did ask if we had the vaccine and said there could be a small risk factor for blood clots as a side effect. He’s been on Xarelto since then. How can you make a decision whether or not to get the 3rd shot, not knowing if the vaccine may have caused the blood clots? From what I understand, we would be eligible around December. No one knows for sure. Ultimately, a very personal decision.16 -
ExistingFish wrote: »Giulia Lucenti - 16 yr - Pfizer
Rosette Kyarikunda - med student - AZ
James Cooper - 77 yrs - death from 3rd shot (booster)
Mahima Mathew - 31 - AZ
Kim Jarvis - 57 yrs - death in sleep within 24 hours
These are just from September, just found with a quick search.
These people didn't all die in September, but they were all reported on the same blog in September. The blog is a group of lawyers who seem to say that all the covid vaccines, even though they are different types of vaccines, are deadly, and are advertising their services to people looking to file lawsuits.
I have no doubt that there will be some possible vaccine injuries or deaths. The rare Astra zeneca side effects can be deadly if the person doesn't get appropriate medical care. Anyone who is concerned about any symptoms within 48 hrs or so of vaccination (any vaxx, not just covid) should absolutely seek medical care if they are concerned.
Considering that hundreds of millions of people have gotten some version of a covid vaccine with no ill effects, and considering the people I know who have gotten covid and either died, sustained a serious long-term and expensive illness, or just had an awful couple of weeks and then a month or so of headaches and fatigue, I'll happily get another dose of the vaccine if/when it's offered. The math is clear.21 -
ExistingFish wrote: »Giulia Lucenti - 16 yr - Pfizer
Rosette Kyarikunda - med student - AZ
James Cooper - 77 yrs - death from 3rd shot (booster)
Mahima Mathew - 31 - AZ
Kim Jarvis - 57 yrs - death in sleep within 24 hours
These are just from September, just found with a quick search.
I can very easily put up a WordPress site and make it say owning dogs makes people die in car accidents.
Doesn’t mean anything.18
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