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  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 7,322 Member Member Posts: 7,322 Member
    All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.

    Based on what I saw/heard in my neighborhood, I'm optimistic. Ours starts at 4 and the first groups were clearly family groups, so people who would have been together anyway. Later groups with older kids still seemed to be small, so likely kids who were hanging out anyway, and whenever I opened the door to refill or check on my bowl, pretty much everyone I saw outside were masked in some way (easy to make that part of the costume).

    Kids are already grouping in a variety of ways -- some schools are open in person, there are sports going on, and many parents are doing small social groups so their kids can have interaction with other kids (and the parents get a break) -- so I don't see this as likely to have contributed much to an outbreak, at least not where I am. The city's reasoning in having Halloween was that the alternative would likely be more indoor parties, so this was a better option.
  • cwolfman13cwolfman13 Member Posts: 39,317 Member Member Posts: 39,317 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.

    The vast majority of all speeding and running stop signs, etc., aren't ticketed and charge because we don't live in a police state. It doesn't mean they aren't subject to enforcement or that they shouldn't be.

    The things you mention are statute...they are law and thus enforceable. The governor going on channel 4 every Thursday and saying this week it's no more than 10...and next week it's 5....and next week it's 8 isn't law...it's not enforceable. Right now, the guideline is no more than 5...I will be having Thanksgiving here and it will be 8 and it will all be close family that we've been seeing since the beginning of this thing...these people are my family and we've all considered the risk and take precautions...but we're family and we're not going to sit here not seeing each other ever when we live down basically down the street from each other.

    The police have no leg to stand on if they should choose to site me for having my mom and her husband and my sister and her husband over for dinner and we exceed her latest guideline of 5 people. I work in the judiciary and know many in law enforcement and they agree...they have no precedent or any kind of leg to stand on if they actually tried to enforce something like that. A big keg party or something, there are ordinances that they can enforce in those circumstances...they can't stop anyone from having a couple people over for turkey. They also have no desire to put themselves at risk for something like that...this is the US and people carry friggin guns to the grocery store...so yeah...no cop is going to come knocking on the door telling anyone that grannie has to leave. when there is zero precedent and no enforceable ordinance on the books.
  • missysippy930missysippy930 Member Posts: 2,487 Member Member Posts: 2,487 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.

    Based on what I saw/heard in my neighborhood, I'm optimistic. Ours starts at 4 and the first groups were clearly family groups, so people who would have been together anyway. Later groups with older kids still seemed to be small, so likely kids who were hanging out anyway, and whenever I opened the door to refill or check on my bowl, pretty much everyone I saw outside were masked in some way (easy to make that part of the costume).

    Kids are already grouping in a variety of ways -- some schools are open in person, there are sports going on, and many parents are doing small social groups so their kids can have interaction with other kids (and the parents get a break) -- so I don't see this as likely to have contributed much to an outbreak, at least not where I am. The city's reasoning in having Halloween was that the alternative would likely be more indoor parties, so this was a better option.

    I’m not as concerned about the kids actually trick or treating, although that presents a somewhat increased risk as well, as I am about the older kids, and adults, having a parties.

    I feel really bad for the young children. Missing out on things a lot of us looked forward to every year. How are Santa visits going to be handled this year? It’s really sad.
  • SModa61SModa61 Member Posts: 1,718 Member Member Posts: 1,718 Member
    Trying to catch up here on the many comments over the past day+.

    @smithker75 I have a quick question for you on how Australia handled a particular situation. I'm in Northeast USA (massachusetts). Many people in this area have second homes outside their state. We have the snowbirds, with winter homes in Florida, or the skiers with weekend homes in VT, NH, or ME. There are others with summer places, again often in VT, NH or ME. Are second homes common in Australia as well, and if so how did the government handle controlling the movement of residents while also allowing residents the right to use their personal property?

    @zamphir66 and @lemurcat2 I actually agree with you both. In zamphir66's comments about borders, I personally was not only thinking about peripheral boarders and influx, but also the state borders as well.
  • SModa61SModa61 Member Posts: 1,718 Member Member Posts: 1,718 Member
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,775 Member Member Posts: 8,775 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.

    The vast majority of all speeding and running stop signs, etc., aren't ticketed and charge because we don't live in a police state. It doesn't mean they aren't subject to enforcement or that they shouldn't be.

    The things you mention are statute...they are law and thus enforceable. The governor going on channel 4 every Thursday and saying this week it's no more than 10...and next week it's 5....and next week it's 8 isn't law...it's not enforceable. Right now, the guideline is no more than 5...I will be having Thanksgiving here and it will be 8 and it will all be close family that we've been seeing since the beginning of this thing...these people are my family and we've all considered the risk and take precautions...but we're family and we're not going to sit here not seeing each other ever when we live down basically down the street from each other.

    The police have no leg to stand on if they should choose to site me for having my mom and her husband and my sister and her husband over for dinner and we exceed her latest guideline of 5 people. I work in the judiciary and know many in law enforcement and they agree...they have no precedent or any kind of leg to stand on if they actually tried to enforce something like that. A big keg party or something, there are ordinances that they can enforce in those circumstances...they can't stop anyone from having a couple people over for turkey. They also have no desire to put themselves at risk for something like that...this is the US and people carry friggin guns to the grocery store...so yeah...no cop is going to come knocking on the door telling anyone that grannie has to leave. when there is zero precedent and no enforceable ordinance on the books.

    There's a difference between saying it's not practical and not worth the consequences of trying to ferret out small private gatherings that exceed the current mandated maximum without being obvious about it, and saying that executive directives are not legally enforceable. If a governor's order is issued pursuant to statutory authority, it's enforceable. Lots of people in this country are convinced income taxes are unconstitutional, but they still end up having their wages garnished and their property confiscated when they don't pay their taxes.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,775 Member Member Posts: 8,775 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »
    Re: Halloween

    Weather was decent (last year we got 8" of snow) so I set up a bowl with treats and set it up at the end of my patio. I got cheap treat bags and put a few treats in each bag so the kids wouldn't be digging in the bowl, just grab a bag. I dressed up and sat on the patio six feet away so I could greet the kids but stay distanced. My neighbor took her kids out and said there weren't as many kids trick or treating and not as many homes had treats. She also said there weren't groups of kids like usual, mostly it was kids with a parent or two. Nobody was covid masked. I got the same number of kids as other years but the demographics were different . . . there were a lot of teenagers on bikes, some in costumes and some not. As long as I had candy for the little ones, I didn't care.

    On the other hand, my night was made when Winnie the Pooh rolled up on a bike.

    Oh, please say you have a picture of Winnie the Pooh on a bike! :smile:
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 7,322 Member Member Posts: 7,322 Member
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    But that's typically not the case. One can go into bars and restaurants and see what they are doing. One typically has no sign of law-breaking at private homes even where there are strict rules like those in CA. For example, here (which is likely one of the more compliant areas of the US overall), there were at one point some huge house parties, advertised online and otherwise, and those got shut down. These are huge and easy to detect if people are watching for them. (Worth noting -- and as Ann said, this is just the facts, not a political opinion -- that when that happened it was reported on Fox as if the mayor was crazily trying to shut down people having a few guests over, ignoring what "house party" meant in these cases.)

    But if someone has several people over for a holiday party, there's going to be no obvious sign unless a neighbor is spying on your and calls the cops. This is especially true if (as normal this time of year, given the weather), the gathering is inside. Where I live, people don't have driveways and you can't pull up in front of the house, so there's no "10 car in front of the house" giveaway. I had a 20 person holiday party in December of last year (obv don't plan to this year), and no one would have known as we weren't noisy. I have one guest spot, everyone else took public transit or car pooled. So rules about the size of holiday gatherings -- although I support them -- seem to me basically unenforceable.

    This summer in my neighborhood, house parties were yard parties including PA systems cranked up to live band decibel levels. We could feel the bass in our basement 100 yards away. Our noise ordinances include decibels levels at the property edge, so it is very easy to know when someone is too loud. The mayor hadn't wanted to give out fines for this, but finally concluded that these parties (and an especially egregious 500 plus "mansion party") were contributing to my city being # 2 or 3 for cases in the state, and instituted a curfew and a green light to levy fines.

    Most of these happened the next street over where we do not know the people. Several of us have talked to the one family on our street having loud parties. They are considerate when sober but not so much once the alcohol gets flowing and have weird views like, "It was the son's birthday" and "Once you're a homeowner you get to have parties."

    While it hasn't been an issue since the weather got cold, we'd been planning to move to my elderly mother's town at some point anyway, and have moved our timetable up.

    This is pretty different from where I live. In my neighborhood most have lots of 125x25 (standard Chicago) or 125x30 (what I have), and are being pretty compliant. The house parties I mentioned are in quite different neighborhoods. My prior 'hood (which was basically Wrigleyville) has been an issue, but not due to house parties, but bar violations.
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