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  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,572 Member Member Posts: 6,572 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.

    More or less, yes, the concept exists.

    USA/Michigan, governor tried to do pretty much that, got sued by the Legislature (controlled by opposing political party); state supreme court ruled she'd exceeded her authority; US President Twitter-scolded her for over-reaching and repeatedly criticized her at his rallies; group of a dozen or so dudes plotted to kidnap her, put her on trial and possibly execute her for treason (or leave her on a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan, depending on which conspirator's plan won out), but were found out when they tried to acquire explosives to blow up a bridge as a distraction - some of them are now out on bail after being charged.

    The above is not a political opinion. It's a set of facts, fairly neutrally stated. I don't have to make stuff up.

    Yes, I understand what you mean by "not a political opinion". I'm not going to express an opinion either.

    My political opinion is that things here, now, are totally f'n surreal, nuts, improbable, dysfunctional, in a huge variety of ways. I don't have to make stuff up, and anyway I don't have a sufficiently expansive imagination that I could out-do what reality is actually delivering here day to day. 🙄😬

    That's still not a *partisan* political opinion, as far as I know. I have those, but we're supposed to avoid discussing them in the MFP forums. (And I avoid discussing them in real life, mostly, too, because generally Nothing Good results.)

    Also Anne. If you need anything know I'm happy to send you a care package anytime.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,572 Member Member Posts: 6,572 Member
    mockchoc my own town (pop 23,000) has never had community transmission either - we had total of 6 cases ,all returnees from overseas, back in April

    To their credit, those 6 people (3 separate couples from unrelated overseas trips) self isolated properly, all were mild cases and recovered at home and it went no further.

    I am 350 km west of Adelaide.

    So happy you are doing well paperpudding. I really hope we can open the boarders up more soon. I would love to go to Tasmania for Christmas. I have a friend down there I'd like to see. Our population is close to 180,000 here. Funny thing was the first case I remember showing up here was a politician. Bah. She should have stayed where she belonged. Could have been a disaster.
  • TonyB0588TonyB0588 Member Posts: 9,521 Member Member Posts: 9,521 Member
    Gisel2015 wrote: »
    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.


    This is what I found on line. My impression, and based on all the discord that these actions bring on, if they apply to personal liberties, is that they are not very effective or really followed. The only one that I know that works is when a state declares a state of emergency due to acts of God or fires. Meaning that the state needs $$$ and federal help.

    https://www.the-sun.com/news/535328/what-is-a-state-of-emergency-in-the-us-and-what-happens-when-one-is-declared/

    The link below shows the state of emergency in all the 50 states. All declarations are still active. But if you follow the news, you will notice that people don't care and the government do not impose them.

    https://www.nga.org/state-covid-19-emergency-orders/[/quote]

    This comment "people don't care and the government do not impose" may explain the wide difference between 9 million in one country, and just a few thousand or hundreds in other countries on this chart https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Here, the people care, so if I or another family member breaches the protocols, it will invoke the wrath of my neighbours, my work colleagues, a child's schoolmates, anybody who feels potentially at risk of infection by my action or inaction.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    There are laws for private gatherings regarding the serving of alcohol to minors, regarding noise levels, regarding occupancy numbers; there are probably laws regarding various dangerous activities that aren't occurring to me and that I've never had reason to consider. Most of those laws are probably relatively rarely enforced compared to violations because they occur in private but it doesn't mean that they're not laws or that they're unconstitutional.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.

    The vast majority of all speeding and running stop signs, etc., aren't ticketed and charge because we don't live in a police state. It doesn't mean they aren't subject to enforcement or that they shouldn't be.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    zamphir66 wrote: »
    My comment about New Zealand being an island and that making things easier was only partially tongue-in-cheek. It is true that geography offers an advantage to places like New Zealand or Taiwan or Japan that a place like the us or the EU just doesn't have.

    On the issue of enforceability of certain measures, my work involves talking to a lot of First Responders all over the country. Including police. I can tell you there's a general undercurrent of not wanting to enforce these kinds of things. Even some agencies explicitly saying that they are not going to enforce X Y or Z mandate. So enforceability really is an issue when the enforcers don't want to enforce things.

    Didn't seem to help Britain in this case.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.

    Yes, it does, and President Trump declared a state of emergency regarding COVID-19 in March. The practical implications from that tend to relate mainly to providing emergency funds to states and localities. I believe the president's authority for directing commercial enterprises to focus manufacturing on health-related needs or to direct that the products be sold to the government come from a separate statue that don't require the state of emergency declaration, or maybe a different kind of emergency declaration.
  • oocdc2oocdc2 Member Posts: 1,339 Member Member Posts: 1,339 Member
    This is from Baylor College of Medicine regarding creating a holiday "bubble" for your family. This wouldn't all be possible for a lot of people, but still, some good ideas in there:

    https://www.bcm.edu/coronavirus/for-the-baylor-community/from-dr-james-mcdeavitt/build-your-own-holiday-bubble

    Thank you for this! I work for an EAP, and I'm looking into sharing this with our employees.
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,713 Member Member Posts: 6,713 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    mockchoc my own town (pop 23,000) has never had community transmission either - we had total of 6 cases ,all returnees from overseas, back in April

    To their credit, those 6 people (3 separate couples from unrelated overseas trips) self isolated properly, all were mild cases and recovered at home and it went no further.

    I am 350 km west of Adelaide.

    So happy you are doing well paperpudding. I really hope we can open the boarders up more soon. I would love to go to Tasmania for Christmas. I have a friend down there I'd like to see. Our population is close to 180,000 here. Funny thing was the first case I remember showing up here was a politician. Bah. She should have stayed where she belonged. Could have been a disaster.

    Yes I personally am doing well - Covid had no financial implications for me as both my husband and my own jobs continued throughout this - neither could be stopped and neither could be done from home.

    I am not sure about Tasmania - but I believe all other states are now open,except to Victoria for obvious reasons, even WA which opened sooner than anticipated

  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 7,303 Member Member Posts: 7,303 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    But that's typically not the case. One can go into bars and restaurants and see what they are doing. One typically has no sign of law-breaking at private homes even where there are strict rules like those in CA. For example, here (which is likely one of the more compliant areas of the US overall), there were at one point some huge house parties, advertised online and otherwise, and those got shut down. These are huge and easy to detect if people are watching for them. (Worth noting -- and as Ann said, this is just the facts, not a political opinion -- that when that happened it was reported on Fox as if the mayor was crazily trying to shut down people having a few guests over, ignoring what "house party" meant in these cases.)

    But if someone has several people over for a holiday party, there's going to be no obvious sign unless a neighbor is spying on your and calls the cops. This is especially true if (as normal this time of year, given the weather), the gathering is inside. Where I live, people don't have driveways and you can't pull up in front of the house, so there's no "10 car in front of the house" giveaway. I had a 20 person holiday party in December of last year (obv don't plan to this year), and no one would have known as we weren't noisy. I have one guest spot, everyone else took public transit or car pooled. So rules about the size of holiday gatherings -- although I support them -- seem to me basically unenforceable.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.

    I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).

    It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.

    We normally get between 30 and 50 kids, depending on the weather. I put out about 15 little treat bags of mini candies on a tray on a folding table, partially because I figured there'd be fewer kids this year, but also because that was all that would fit on the tray and all that I had finished making into bags by dusk. :smile:

    I put a sign on the table saying "take one -- if you dare!" because I had fake hairy spiders decorating the table. I only heard one group go by talking and laughing -- sounded like three or four at the most. When I went out to refill at 8 with the rest of the bags I had filled in the meantime, it looked like 10 or 12 bags were gone -- so either some kids came by very quietly or somebody took more than their share. But some of them take more than their share when they knock on the door -- I try to dole out one or two candies, depending on if they're full size or snack size (or three or four candies as the evening goes on and it looks like I may end up with leftovers), and some kids just stick their hands in the bowl I'm doling out from.

    I went out and checked and it looks like nobody has come by in the past hour. I'll give them another half hour or so and bring the table and leftover candy in.

    I like seeing the kids in their costumes and giving the candy out in person, too, but frankly most of them are so ... I don't know what to call it. It's not rude exactly. But they won't engage at all. Most of them don't even say trick or treat anymore. They just knock and hold their bags or plastic jack-o-lanterns or pillowcases out, or grab the candy from the bowl. If I say "Happy Halloween" and make a comment or compliment or ask a question about their costumes, most of them don't respond. I don't see how it can bee a "don't talk to strangers" issue when you're OK with letting your kids knock on my door and take candy from me.

    I get that a three or four year old might be too shy, or, in my neighborhood, there might even be a language barrier with the pre-schoolers, but when a 10-year-old can't be bothered to say trick or treat or happy halloween or even hi, and can't even say thank you for the candy or thank you if I tell them how scary or cute or realistic or whatever their costume is ... It starts to feel like I'm just being held up for some candy.

    Which is OK, I guess, but I may just do the candy out in the bowl again next year even if we're not having a pandemic, because this was a lot easier. And I like the process of filling the little bags. And when Halloween is on a weekday, they start coming around before I'm even done working for the day.

    If it hadn't been for the pandemic, I would have taken advantage of it being on the weekend to put on some scary show for the kids, like my dad and I did a few times when I outgrew trick or treating, and I've done a few times since he died.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    Here's the outcome of the lawsuit I posted about previously by a voter who felt his rights were violated by being required to put on a mask at a polling place or leave (he was arrested initially for trespassing because he wouldn't leave or vote outside, and then charged subsequently with violating requirements by the governor for wearing masks at polling places):

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/harford-mask-lawsuit-dismissed/2020/10/30/e6c56cb2-1adc-11eb-befb-8864259bd2d8_story.html
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 7,303 Member Member Posts: 7,303 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.

    I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).

    It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.

    Curious why this basic report got a disagree. Would respect much more someone who admitted and explained.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,760 Member Member Posts: 8,760 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    So reporting on Halloween, I saw that at least one of my neighbors did the candy shooter set up. I went with bowl of candy outside, sign saying take one or two. Most of the earlier kids were with parents, and the parents were saying "just take one," and generally they were all being respectful of the sign until I heard some crazy giggling from some slightly older girls around 7 and checked and indeed they'd taken much of what was left.

    I had extra candy (I always buy too much), so didn't really mind, and just refilled. As it's now about 8, it seems to be mostly or entirely over, and I think I actually got quite a few more kids than last year (but last year we had tons of snow and also I missed the beginning since I wasn't home from work yet).

    It's more fun to be able to see the kids and give the candy out in person, but I could hear them and it was nice they got to do a Halloween of some sort.

    Curious why this basic report got a disagree. Would respect much more someone who admitted and explained.

    I just figure a certain percentage of disagrees are accidents from people scrolling in the app, and a certain percentage are people who didn't like something you said in a different post and now they're just disagreeing any time you post.

    It's not worth worrying about.

    I so hope we don't HAVE to do Halloween this way next year, even if I end up deciding it's easier on a weeknight. I'm starting to get a little pessimistic about how long this thing is going to last.
  • missysippy930missysippy930 Member Posts: 2,487 Member Member Posts: 2,487 Member
    All I’m going to say about Halloween is that there will, more than likely, be an uptick in cases of covid as a result.

    More than anything, the containment of the virus in island nations, ie:Australia & New Zealand, has to do with clear policies from leadership, right from the beginning, than anything else. The increase in cases in the UK & EU (the US hasn’t seemed to have ever have left the first wave) is more than likely from lifting restrictions, people congregating in large groups, and colder weather driving more people indoors. Non compliance with face coverings and social distancing. Perhaps the sparsely populated island nations of Australia & New Zealand, have a slight advantage over the much more densely populated US, UK, & EU, just from sheer numbers of people. 🤷🏻‍♀️

    Just the other day I read of an incidence in NY where several people have been sited for 400 people being together with no social distancing and very few having face coverings.

    I can’t understand how people can’t see how this is being spread. Some of this could be avoided by following basic guidelines. It’s not difficult, maybe frustrating, but worth the little inconvenience to possibly prevent someone else getting this virus. Perhaps your loved one or friend.
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