Coronavirus prep
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Again, I can only speak for here in Ontario, but here they are definitely counting anyone who dies WITH covid in the official death counts in all of the major health units:
“Toronto Public Health continues to follow the provincial definition for how COVID-19 deaths are categorized,” said Dr. Vinita Dubey, Toronto’s associate medical officer of health. “This means that individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not necessarily as a result of COVID-19, are all included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto.”
https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ontario-death-count-includes-people-who-didnt-die-of-covid-19-but-exactly-how-many-is-unknown
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »In passenger seat and skipped over much of above, but will go back later. I will describe the experience of good friends which I do find concerning.
Husband got his second Moderna shot. That night, he got sick. You can debate whether related or not. Description used words like paralysis, but nurse wife ultimately labeled if seizure. Brought to er and admitted. Tests done. Wife asked for antibody assessment several times, out of concern of vaccine reaction. Was refused. Was told no proof of causality and “not on list”. IMO if one never examines an oddly timed illness for consideration of association, then how does it ever get on the list. And if only items on the list get considered, then new problems are never identified. Anyhow, assuming this was all described to me accurately, I find it concerning and makes me wonder about all kinds on claims.
Quick edit: this gentleman also had confirmed COVID Xmas 2020.
If he had the vaccine recently, you would expect him to have antibodies. How would that remotely qualify as evidence that the vaccination caused the stroke?
Logical point. Their first dose was 3+ months after recovering and their second dose was about 5 weeks instead of 4. The thought would be to see if he was put into an excessive state of antibodies. The couple claims that they spoke with a friend who works in vaccine science and she commented that what they described was due to an overload of antibodies. I feel like the phrasing was something like an antibody storm. Apologies that this is hearsay, but these people are not anti Vaxers or anything and solely shared their experience and observations.
With sudden paralysis immediately following vaccination or infection, they should have tested for antigangliocide antibodies to rule out Guillain-Barre. Sounds like your friend was right to ask.
It sounds like they eventually decided the subsequent course of the illness was unlike Guillain-Barre, however?
The thing about Guillain-Barre is it’s a very rare reaction which can occur in response to almost any vaccine, including generally safe and approved vaccines, because it has to do with a rare individual’s cells resembling the pathogen such that their immune system becomes confused. And - this is the important part - it is EVEN MORE LIKELY to happen to that person should they actually catch the infection. Imagine that the police department from a neighboring city sends your home town a wanted poster for a criminal who just happens to look exactly like you. The police in your city may try to arrest you by mistake if they see you. Now imagine that no poster is posted, but that criminal shows up in your home town and goes on a rampage. The police are even more likely to arrest or even shoot you by mistake.
So, if this was what caused the paralysis, your friend catching Covid would have been even more likely to cause it. In fact most cases of Guillain-Barre are caused by infections, not vaccines.
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I'm a little behind on my TWIV listening, but the last epi I listened to was an interview with Dr Shane Crotty, a virologist from the La Jolla Institute of Immunology. Lots of interesting conversation in this one. What stood out to me is he said he sees a lot of variability in natural immunity markers. In other words, some folks who've had covid seem to have strong and probably long lasting immunity while others don't. He theorizes that could be down to which variant a person gets. Vaccine immunity seems more "consistent". Noted of course use of the words "seems" and "likely" and "we suspect" etc. Anyway he said he would advise anyone who had covid to get at least one dose to ensure consistent immune response, at least until they can develop a more certain understanding.11
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ExistingFish wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »In passenger seat and skipped over much of above, but will go back later. I will describe the experience of good friends which I do find concerning.
Husband got his second Moderna shot. That night, he got sick. You can debate whether related or not. Description used words like paralysis, but nurse wife ultimately labeled if seizure. Brought to er and admitted. Tests done. Wife asked for antibody assessment several times, out of concern of vaccine reaction. Was refused. Was told no proof of causality and “not on list”. IMO if one never examines an oddly timed illness for consideration of association, then how does it ever get on the list. And if only items on the list get considered, then new problems are never identified. Anyhow, assuming this was all described to me accurately, I find it concerning and makes me wonder about all kinds on claims.
Quick edit: this gentleman also had confirmed COVID Xmas 2020.
If he had the vaccine recently, you would expect him to have antibodies. How would that remotely qualify as evidence that the vaccination caused the stroke?
Blood clots are one of the known and recognized side effects of these vaccines, some manufacturers more than others. Don't act like it's so far outside the realm of possibility.
I'm not. I'm questioning what the implication of being refused an antibody test is supposed to be. There doesn't seem to be any question of whether he had the vaccine. What would screening for antibodies prove? It's irrelevant but is included in the anecdote as though it shows some malfeasance on the part of the medical team.8 -
Blood clots are aside effect of COVID.
It is now more recognised than it was, because many with covid died because of blood clots in the initial and probably middle stages of medical understanding. Even so the frequency of blood clots are many times fewer with the vaccine than with covid, early Symptoms are known now.
I expect everyone has access to the medical sheet which goes with each and every medication and vaccine. Possibly one has to ask for the one which comes with the vaccine, packets of pills and bottles have this information in the box. Every medication and vaccine has such a sheet to go along with it if you look or ask. It is possible to get one pre appointment to read pre vaccine and consider or are expected to read before taking any medication, they identify ingredients allergens and more importantly any possible and less likely side effects and symptoms and when to alert medical professionals who know so much more now than at the start of the year. We have these sheets here in the UK, I take notice and ask if necessary.12 -
here in Australia, where I give Covid vaccines to people - there is an information sheet about common and rare side effects and what to look out for and when to seek medical assistance.
Every person getting the vaccine gets the take home info sheet - and signs consent to say they have read it before getting the jab.11 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »In passenger seat and skipped over much of above, but will go back later. I will describe the experience of good friends which I do find concerning.
Husband got his second Moderna shot. That night, he got sick. You can debate whether related or not. Description used words like paralysis, but nurse wife ultimately labeled if seizure. Brought to er and admitted. Tests done. Wife asked for antibody assessment several times, out of concern of vaccine reaction. Was refused. Was told no proof of causality and “not on list”. IMO if one never examines an oddly timed illness for consideration of association, then how does it ever get on the list. And if only items on the list get considered, then new problems are never identified. Anyhow, assuming this was all described to me accurately, I find it concerning and makes me wonder about all kinds on claims.
Quick edit: this gentleman also had confirmed COVID Xmas 2020.
If he had the vaccine recently, you would expect him to have antibodies. How would that remotely qualify as evidence that the vaccination caused the stroke?
Blood clots are one of the known and recognized side effects of these vaccines, some manufacturers more than others. Don't act like it's so far outside the realm of possibility.
I'm not. I'm questioning what the implication of being refused an antibody test is supposed to be. There doesn't seem to be any question of whether he had the vaccine. What would screening for antibodies prove? It's irrelevant but is included in the anecdote as though it shows some malfeasance on the part of the medical team.
I’m pretty sure this is just confusion on the part of someone who’s not a medical expert. There are different kinds of antibodies. Testing for antibodies against the coronavirus would, as you said, be pointless since they would be expected in someone who had received the vaccine. However, in someone having an autoimmune reaction to a vaccine, a test will reveal antibodies against their own body’s neural cells, called antigangliocide antibodies. It would be quite reasonable to ask for such a test, especially since the wife was a medical professional, and not outside the realm of possibility for a small hospital’s ER to be staffed with dummies who refused it, since Guillain-Barre is pretty rare and one of those things that gets misdiagnosed by doctors who aren’t looking for it.
In any case, it has nothing to do with blood clots, which is a whole different thing. Testing for antibodies would not reveal whether a blood clot that caused a stroke was the result of the vaccine, there is no simple test for that. And finding that a blood clot caused a stroke would mean that it wasn’t Guillain-Barre.9 -
Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.32 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.
Agreed! In my town in Texas is a hospital that offers antibody infusions and serves 5 counties (other nearby hospitals do not have this available). They have today increased capacity to now be able to provide 50 infusions daily (was about 30 before today). It is hopeful that this will keep people out of hospitals and open up some beds.
However, I agree with you... if there were plenty of capacity for hospital beds or moniclonal antibody infusions, I could accept giving them to people who refused vaccines. But that's not the situation. When care must be rationed, it should go to responsible patients first.18 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.
Yeah, apparently, the latest "thing" among the unvaccinated is that they don't trust the vaccine because it's "new and untested", but they are clamoring for the monoclonal antibody infusions.
Here's a NY Times article about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/health/covid-antibody-regeneron.html
Here's some quotes from the article:
“The people you love, you trust, nobody said anything negative about it,” Mr. Jones said of the antibody treatment. “And I’ve heard nothing but negative things about the side effects of the vaccine and how quickly it was developed.”
Within days of his infusion, Mr. Jones, the patient in Houston, had left the bedroom where he had been quarantined and returned to his work as a landscape architect. But he was still weighing whether to be vaccinated.
His doctor was pushing for the shot, he said. But the monoclonal antibodies had worked so well that he was tempted to simply return for another infusion if he caught Covid-19 again.
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A nurse's training didn't protect her from vaccine misinformation. Now, she's one of the victims of Covid-19
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/idaho-covid-crisis-nurse-death/index.html6 -
rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.[/quote/]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tennessee-limiting-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-unvaccinated-residents-n1279740
If you have been vaccinated why would you have a need for monoclonal antibodies? Just the monoclonal antibodies cost from the maker is $2100.00.
Medically, ethically they are for
the unvaccinated.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
From @rheddmobile ’s comment:rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.[/quote/]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tennessee-limiting-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-unvaccinated-residents-n1279740
If you have been vaccinated why would you have a need for monoclonal antibodies? Just the monoclonal antibodies cost from the maker is $2100.00.
Medically, ethically they are for
the unvaccinated.
“ … someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine … “10 -
Blood clots are aside effect of COVID.
It is now more recognised than it was, because many with covid died because of blood clots in the initial and probably middle stages of medical understanding. Even so the frequency of blood clots are many times fewer with the vaccine than with covid, early Symptoms are known now.
I expect everyone has access to the medical sheet which goes with each and every medication and vaccine. Possibly one has to ask for the one which comes with the vaccine, packets of pills and bottles have this information in the box. Every medication and vaccine has such a sheet to go along with it if you look or ask. It is possible to get one pre appointment to read pre vaccine and consider or are expected to read before taking any medication, they identify ingredients allergens and more importantly any possible and less likely side effects and symptoms and when to alert medical professionals who know so much more now than at the start of the year. We have these sheets here in the UK, I take notice and ask if necessary.
They weren't available at the mass pop-up vax site I went to in the U.S. There was some online info to read before answering the pre-screening questions, but I don't think it's available anymore, as you had to have an ID # associated with your upcoming appointment.0 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.
Yeah, apparently, the latest "thing" among the unvaccinated is that they don't trust the vaccine because it's "new and untested", but they are clamoring for the monoclonal antibody infusions.
Here's a NY Times article about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/health/covid-antibody-regeneron.html
Here's some quotes from the article:
“The people you love, you trust, nobody said anything negative about it,” Mr. Jones said of the antibody treatment. “And I’ve heard nothing but negative things about the side effects of the vaccine and how quickly it was developed.”
Within days of his infusion, Mr. Jones, the patient in Houston, had left the bedroom where he had been quarantined and returned to his work as a landscape architect. But he was still weighing whether to be vaccinated.
His doctor was pushing for the shot, he said. But the monoclonal antibodies had worked so well that he was tempted to simply return for another infusion if he caught Covid-19 again.
And U.S. federal medical advice came out today from NIH saying that the unvaccinated should be moved ahead of everybody except maybe the "officially" immunocompromised, which doesn't sound like it covers elderly people who don't have a specific disease that compromises their immune system. I'm all for making the statistically best decisions about who is most likely to benefit from the antibody therapy, but this sounds as though they've decided not to take any other factors into consideration. I had a fully vaccinated friend who ended up in the emergency room with COVID. He has medical issues that don't include compromised immunity, and was in extreme respiratory distress. He got antibody therapy and was able to go home and recover slowly over another couple of weeks. I would hate to think of him being denied the therapy just because he had the vaccine.12 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »SuzySunshine99 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.
Yeah, apparently, the latest "thing" among the unvaccinated is that they don't trust the vaccine because it's "new and untested", but they are clamoring for the monoclonal antibody infusions.
Here's a NY Times article about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/health/covid-antibody-regeneron.html
Here's some quotes from the article:
“The people you love, you trust, nobody said anything negative about it,” Mr. Jones said of the antibody treatment. “And I’ve heard nothing but negative things about the side effects of the vaccine and how quickly it was developed.”
Within days of his infusion, Mr. Jones, the patient in Houston, had left the bedroom where he had been quarantined and returned to his work as a landscape architect. But he was still weighing whether to be vaccinated.
His doctor was pushing for the shot, he said. But the monoclonal antibodies had worked so well that he was tempted to simply return for another infusion if he caught Covid-19 again.
And U.S. federal medical advice came out today from NIH saying that the unvaccinated should be moved ahead of everybody except maybe the "officially" immunocompromised, which doesn't sound like it covers elderly people who don't have a specific disease that compromises their immune system. I'm all for making the statistically best decisions about who is most likely to benefit from the antibody therapy, but this sounds as though they've decided not to take any other factors into consideration. I had a fully vaccinated friend who ended up in the emergency room with COVID. He has medical issues that don't include compromised immunity, and was in extreme respiratory distress. He got antibody therapy and was able to go home and recover slowly over another couple of weeks. I would hate to think of him being denied the therapy just because he had the vaccine.
My husband, who thinks differently than I do, said the obvious solution was, if you get Covid and are vaccinated, lie and say you are unvaccinated. That way you can get treatment. What is this world coming to.8 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.[/quote/]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tennessee-limiting-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-unvaccinated-residents-n1279740
If you have been vaccinated why would you have a need for monoclonal antibodies? Just the monoclonal antibodies cost from the maker is $2100.00.
Medically, ethically they are for
the unvaccinated.
At present two shots of Pfizer are 77% effective at preventing hospitalization, according to real world studies.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Not delighted to read in the news today that my state, Tennessee, is rationing monoclonal antibodies. Specifically people who have been vaccinated can no longer receive them unless they are immunocompromised. So, if I get Covid, someone like me, a diabetic at high risk of hospitalization even with the vaccine, cannot receive them, even though I have been doing everything right and being responsible. Only irresponsible people who refuse to get vaccinated are now eligible for the best medical care.
I feel like if you are going to choose to be fearmongering about modern science, you shouldn’t get to change your mind later and grab all the goodies medical science has to offer, stealing them from people who didn’t make the same choice.[/quote/]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tennessee-limiting-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-unvaccinated-residents-n1279740
If you have been vaccinated why would you have a need for monoclonal antibodies? Just the monoclonal antibodies cost from the maker is $2100.00.
Medically, ethically they are for
the unvaccinated.
At present two shots of Pfizer are 77% effective at preventing hospitalization, according to real world studies.
At present two shots of Pfizer are 77% effective at preventing hospitalization, according to real world studies.[
Newest data from PHE is showing even better real world results than that.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1017253/S1359_VEEP_Vaccine_Effectiveness_Table__1_.pdf5 -
Lynn G, I'm so very sorry, it seems many do not have the information they, I consider I need, at their fingertips. Many have access to the internet but many don't. No wonder so many decide not to have the vaccine. Possibly having this information in paper form is the one good thing about being in England.4
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Here's the US fact sheet for Pfizer: https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (this is the one I got). Since early on the sign ups were typically on-line, I think the information was on-line for most sites where people signed up online. They may have also been available in hard copy there, but I didn't look and I doubt many would have, as there would have been no point. Generally, people only went to the sites if they had signed up, so whether or not they were available on site seems extremely unlikely to have had anything to do with vaccine hesitancy. I find that idea very unconvincing.7
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