Coronavirus prep
Replies
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »It's actually easy here in Tx to get a booster. I was just talking to one of my friends yesterday morning about it (she is immuno compromised) and got her 2nd shot in Feb I think. She was able to walk right in to the pharmacy and get her booster yesterday afternoon. It will be interesting to see if she has any reaction to the 3rd. So far all reports I have heard are just arm soreness and nothing like the 2nd shot. She got Moderna I think. (and looks like that poster was quite successful in getting the other thread shut down).
On another note maybe MORE people will be encouraged to and will be able to get the antibodies now that our Governor has made them more in the news again.
I don't think that was a "booster". I think she got a regular shot which are widely available to walk into any pharmacy and get. So she got herself a third shot, but not necessarily a "booster". Per the CDC, boosters won't be available until the fall after full FDA approval (which happened yesterday August 23). From what I've read, these won't be just walk in and get...you will get a notification that you are eligible as per the date of your 2nd shot. It will go in the same order that the original shots were prioritized.
This is per the CDC on 8/20/21...so not really sure what your friend got here...maybe it was a booster and they were just starting before the official announcement of FDA approval or something. I won't be eligible to get mine until Dec as my 2nd shot was April 2 per the CDC.
Not speaking for SummerSkier or her friend here, but immunocompromised people are eligible for actual "booster" vaccinations now, officially, and at a shorter time horizon than planned for regular people later. (It's 28 days after the 2nd shot, for this group, and applies to Pfizer and Moderna.)
It appears that the rules and conditions for getting this vary locally/regionally, possibly especially now, as I think this was a quite-sudden announcement, not one that was preannounced as is happening for the regular booster situation. I think the bureaucracies are playing catch-up on this rule, maybe.
Details:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/immuno.html
Details about what is meant by "immunocompromised", in this context, are at that link.
Ah, that makes sense.
All I've heard from our state DOH is that we will be notified when we are eligible for our booster and that we will not be given it if we just go to the pharmacy without proof of eligibility, though you can still just walk in and get your initial doses. I just hope that doesn't confuse people here who are unvaxed and now think they have to wait again for eligibility.
It will be easy to walk in and get it when eligible, but you can't just walk in now and get it unless you're in the group that is currently being prioritized. The post made me think that in Tx for some reason, any old someone could just walk in and get their booster regardless of where they are in line.
But there's no paperwork (other than an ID) required to get your first dose, and nobody is getting an indelible stamp when they get their initial doses, so all anybody who wants a booster has to do is go into a pharmacy and lie if asked about whether they've had a vaccination yet, right?
I know the info about vaccinations in our state and at least some others is supposed to be uploaded to a central database, but I don't think they check it for each person coming in before administering the vaccine, do they? I was vaccinated in a sort of pop-up clinic at a church, so I don't know what it's like for covid vaccines administered in an actual pharmacy. Nobody was putting data into a computer in real time until the end of the line (after vaccination) when they were helping people who needed help sign up for the second dose. Maybe it's different at a pharmacy. I haven't been able to get confirmation of my vaccination from the state database, just from the database run by the pharmacy that staffed the clinic. So maybe people who are trying to jump queue could just go to a different pharmacy chain or other provider from where they got the original doses.
In theory, and I've thought about that, that you could just go to a pharmacy and pretend to be getting a first shot. But IME (I also did not get the first one in a pharmacy, but I have gotten the flu shot there), they ask for insurance information (you could lie and say you don't have any, but I could see them checking that) and the state supposedly has a database that I could see a pharmacy checking. So it seems risky or at least with a high embarrassment potential and if they find out you have insurance and it's not a legit covid shot but an unauthorized booster, maybe a bill. Dunno.
I got my shots through some appointments that were given to our alderman in the ward to schedule. All the aldermen seemed to be using different criteria (ours prioritized teachers but after that anyone eligible). My sister and a friend drove to another part of the state where they had excess, since the overall vax rate was lower.
Good point on the insurance angle.
By the time I got mine, I think we had moved to everyone eligible, although I don't think we had gotten there when I made the appointment.
I'm not a big fan of queue-jumping and don't have any plans to try to do it myself, but I have a hard time getting massively upset at someone who does it, given that we have vaccines expiring in the U.S., and no apparent plans to do the thing which would be at once most humane and most productive, which is to ship extra vaccine to countries that have never had enough vaccine to get a significant percentage of the population vaccinated.
If we're just going to let vaccine expire because vax resisters won't take it, it's better that it go in somebody's arm, even if it's only providing an incremental boost in protection to someone who's already better protected than billions of people around the world.
I'm repeating myself to get back to covid, but that's how I feel re expiring vaccines, and have been watching the stats in my state with frustration (and we are far from the worst state). At this point given the availability I think anyone here who wants a booster should get one (and my friend and sister who went downstate to get one in March in an anti vax area which had extras and was inviting Chicagoans (who couldn't get it here) to come, same.)4 -
Covid (I think) has spiked real estate here, too. IMU, this is one of the most affordable real estate market areas in the country (US), when it comes to home purchases. A decent-ish 3 BR or so suburban-type home, good condition, maybe 2500 sq ft or so, decent schools/neighborhood, would be entering the market maybe high 200s thousand to mid/upper-300s thousand, USD. Reasonable sized lot, maybe up to half acre, possibly more if semi-rural. Smaller lots, closer in to the urban center, older homes, sometimes still in decent shape and not-*terrible* neighborhoods, maybe somewhat less good schools, cheaper. This is judging based on what a young friend who's a real estate agent has been posting as his hot homes of the day. 😆 (From looking around at homes in my neighborhood on Zillow that are on the market or sold recently, those prices don't seem crazy out of line.) They're not McMansions, but they're fairly nice homes in good places.
Nonetheless, the pandemic-driving buying surge has prices quite a bit higher than a year or two ago, IME.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://news.yahoo.com/u-data-show-rising-breakthrough-181525317.html
Being vaccinated still gives us an edge to decrease the health care burden.
Locally death is increasing interest in getting vaccinated and of course some are glad to point out the vaccine protection is fading fast.
But that's not actually demonstrably true, as I understand it, except among immunocompromised people (who don't mount as strong an immune response to vaccines) and *possibly* among elders, especially more-frail elders, for what are believed to be similar reasons.
People who are thinking that way (your last paragraph) bought into the incorrect but common misunderstanding that vaccines are a 100% effective invisible shield against infection. They're a dramatically good (but not quite 100%) protection against *severe* infection (needing hospitalization, intubation; dying), and continue to be so for most people. But they are, and have been expected to be, a lower level of protection against milder infection.
Breakthrough infections are happening now, yes. That was expected, to some extent, by experts. It may be more likely/common with the delta variant, since it's more transmissible. (That's still not clear, IMU, because in the US at least there aren't good statistics about breakthrough infections, partly because there hasn't been priority on collecting them, partly because it's very hard to do so anyway: Vaccinated people with mild or asymptomatic cases don't realize they have a breakthrough case of Covid; some people who think they do have a breakthrough case choose not to be tested or have difficulty access a test (there was an example of this here, earlier, maybe in this thread).)
The "vaccines are 100% protection" myth was discussed at length relatively recently here, though I don't remember whether it was in this thread or one of the other Covid ones going on in debate, where someone said they thought a an injection wasn't actually even a vaccine if not 100% protective (forever, maybe, even), and that friends they had talked to had thought the same thing.
I think you are aware that you're posting information intentionally to take my post off subject.
There is not a doctor involved with healthcare that is thinking that covid-19 vaccinations has anything like 100% of effectiveness.
The data from Israel is showing declining ability for Pfizer to protect against breakthrough infections. This is why they're starting the third dose.
Take a look at today's graphs of cases and you will see Israel is off the chart even above the United states.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »https://news.yahoo.com/u-data-show-rising-breakthrough-181525317.html
Being vaccinated still gives us an edge to decrease the health care burden.
Locally death is increasing interest in getting vaccinated and of course some are glad to point out the vaccine protection is fading fast.
But that's not actually demonstrably true, as I understand it, except among immunocompromised people (who don't mount as strong an immune response to vaccines) and *possibly* among elders, especially more-frail elders, for what are believed to be similar reasons.
People who are thinking that way (your last paragraph) bought into the incorrect but common misunderstanding that vaccines are a 100% effective invisible shield against infection. They're a dramatically good (but not quite 100%) protection against *severe* infection (needing hospitalization, intubation; dying), and continue to be so for most people. But they are, and have been expected to be, a lower level of protection against milder infection.
Breakthrough infections are happening now, yes. That was expected, to some extent, by experts. It may be more likely/common with the delta variant, since it's more transmissible. (That's still not clear, IMU, because in the US at least there aren't good statistics about breakthrough infections, partly because there hasn't been priority on collecting them, partly because it's very hard to do so anyway: Vaccinated people with mild or asymptomatic cases don't realize they have a breakthrough case of Covid; some people who think they do have a breakthrough case choose not to be tested or have difficulty access a test (there was an example of this here, earlier, maybe in this thread).)
The "vaccines are 100% protection" myth was discussed at length relatively recently here, though I don't remember whether it was in this thread or one of the other Covid ones going on in debate, where someone said they thought a an injection wasn't actually even a vaccine if not 100% protective (forever, maybe, even), and that friends they had talked to had thought the same thing.
I think you are aware that you're posting information intentionally to take my post off subject.
There is not a doctor involved with healthcare that is thinking that covid-19 vaccinations has anything like 100% of effectiveness.
The data from Israel is showing declining ability for Pfizer to protect against breakthrough infections. This is why they're starting the third dose.
Take a look at today's graphs of cases and you will see Israel is off the chart even above the United states.
No, I'm not doing that, at least not intentionally. In fact, I thought I was generally agreeing with you: Yes, some people are claiming that vaccine protection is waning, but they don't have strong evidence on their side. They have misunderstandings on their side: That's what I'm saying. Those people had expectations or understandings about the vaccines that were inaccurate.
Vaccine protections are expected to lessen at some point, but from what I've been hearing/reading, it is not entirely clear that we've actually reached that point yet, for healthy adults with healthy immune systems. The evidence from Israel is not 100% persuasive that protection is waning, as I understand it, because of insufficiencies in the data they've made public. It may be true, but IMU, experts are not fully persuaded. I don't have a link for you to verify, but this was said by a virologist, head of a major university virology program, interviewed on NPR today.
Of course qualified doctors don't think vaccines are 100% effective. I'm saying that some regular people mistakenly believed that, and that that's lead to those people believing breakthrough infections mean the vaccines don't work.6 -
Maybe - but that kind of reinforces my point because you can't really get a house here for under 1M. Maybe people are thinking that when I refer to a million dollar home I am talking about a mansion or something - when in reality a regular cookie cutter subdivision home that isn't anything special costs that here.
my husband sold his house in Kitchener (an hour outside toronto- well, on a good day lol) back in 2017 before moving here to marry me. It was a nice house in a nice neighborhood but nothing remarkable. 2 story, 3 BR 2 Ba. postage stamp lot. around 1500sf. sold for a million.
would be interesting to see what it would sell for in todays market....
I remember asking him back then (which obviously was only a few years ago) how did young, first time home buyers afford to buy a home. He didnt have an answer. He and his ex had bought it 15 years previously and obviously home prices were not nearly those prices then. a couple of hundred thousand, iirc- something much more expected for the type of home.1 -
Are single family detached homes (what I used to call villas when I first immigrated to Canada) the only form of home ownership that's acceptable?
This may come in as a bit of a surprise to the millions of people worldwide who own sub-standard apartments, apparently not worth their pride of ownership.
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If I were to ask most of the people I know who do not have established long term jobs, or who are newcomers to the labor market and/or Canada, do you think they would prefer a booming economy driven by overpriced real estate that attracts laundered foreign capital and provides then with jobs but no opportunity to own a detached single family home... or a reduction in the influx of money, a bursting of the 20+ year old real estate bubble, and a nice five to seven year recession that will still provide them with no opportunity to own a home anyway in spite of major price reductions, because they will no longer have jobs and money to spend!
The developers, including foreign buyers, will then collect the discounted units for later profits. For an example look at Arizona homes bought by Canadian developers subsequent to the 2007 - 2010 crash)
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If in the interest of equity you wanted to stop intergenerational transfer of wealth.... you could, and you can, through taxation and the redistribution of such wealth.
I think we can all see how such discussions would verge a little bit on the political.
I look around Canada and a LOT of our economic activity and prosperity is a function of these real estate valuations.
Home **ownership** may be socially desirable--but it is far from a universal human right.
We mess around with what functions at our peril.
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$400k, 4,200 sq ft listing in university community in flyover country. Wages for comparable jobs not significantly less than larger cities in the midwest.
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Illinois going to mandatory indoor masks starting Monday. Also all workers in education and college students vax mandate or minimum weekly testing.4
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Covid (I think) has spiked real estate here, too. IMU, this is one of the most affordable real estate market areas in the country (US), when it comes to home purchases. A decent-ish 3 BR or so suburban-type home, good condition, maybe 2500 sq ft or so, decent schools/neighborhood, would be entering the market maybe high 200s thousand to mid/upper-300s thousand, USD. Reasonable sized lot, maybe up to half acre, possibly more if semi-rural. Smaller lots, closer in to the urban center, older homes, sometimes still in decent shape and not-*terrible* neighborhoods, maybe somewhat less good schools, cheaper. This is judging based on what a young friend who's a real estate agent has been posting as his hot homes of the day. 😆 (From looking around at homes in my neighborhood on Zillow that are on the market or sold recently, those prices don't seem crazy out of line.) They're not McMansions, but they're fairly nice homes in good places.
Nonetheless, the pandemic-driving buying surge has prices quite a bit higher than a year or two ago, IME.
Texas hill country has been surging starting in May 2020. I don't know why here, but a lot of people moving from the coasts to here since starting to work from home. It doesn't make sense because where I lived in rural west TN has nearly just as temperate weather (except it occasionally gets down to 40s or even 30s Fahrenheit in winter). And houses there cost hald as much. Meanwhile, the last place I lived in rural Iowa a few years ago was cheaper even yet. I sold my house in 2019 for around $50K. It wasn't huge (2BR/1BA), detached garage, but was well maintained and had a big yard. I know the rural midwest has many rural areas similarly cheap. So I never understood why everyone moved here. To be fair, I moved here in Mar., but was for a great job and not just to find somewhere to WFH for cheaper.0 -
Are single family detached homes (what I used to call villas when I first immigrated to Canada) the only form of home ownership that's acceptable?
This may come in as a bit of a surprise to the millions of people worldwide who own sub-standard apartments, apparently not worth their pride of ownership.
********
If I were to ask most of the people I know who do not have established long term jobs, or who are newcomers to the labor market and/or Canada, do you think they would prefer a booming economy driven by overpriced real estate that attracts laundered foreign capital and provides then with jobs but no opportunity to own a detached single family home... or a reduction in the influx of money, a bursting of the 20+ year old real estate bubble, and a nice five to seven year recession that will still provide them with no opportunity to own a home anyway in spite of major price reductions, because they will no longer have jobs and money to spend!
The developers, including foreign buyers, will then collect the discounted units for later profits. For an example look at Arizona homes bought by Canadian developers subsequent to the 2007 - 2010 crash)
*******
If in the interest of equity you wanted to stop intergenerational transfer of wealth.... you could, and you can, through taxation and the redistribution of such wealth.
I think we can all see how such discussions would verge a little bit on the political.
I look around Canada and a LOT of our economic activity and prosperity is a function of these real estate valuations.
Home **ownership** may be socially desirable--but it is far from a universal human right.
We mess around with what functions at our peril.
I have several relatives in Boston who own condos, as did my sister, until she moved 30 minutes outside Boston.
They were all likely former multi family apartment buildings that went condo.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Illinois going to mandatory indoor masks starting Monday. Also all workers in education and college students vax mandate or minimum weekly testing.
Chicago has had mandatory indoor masks since last Friday.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Are single family detached homes (what I used to call villas when I first immigrated to Canada) the only form of home ownership that's acceptable?
This may come in as a bit of a surprise to the millions of people worldwide who own sub-standard apartments, apparently not worth their pride of ownership.
********
If I were to ask most of the people I know who do not have established long term jobs, or who are newcomers to the labor market and/or Canada, do you think they would prefer a booming economy driven by overpriced real estate that attracts laundered foreign capital and provides then with jobs but no opportunity to own a detached single family home... or a reduction in the influx of money, a bursting of the 20+ year old real estate bubble, and a nice five to seven year recession that will still provide them with no opportunity to own a home anyway in spite of major price reductions, because they will no longer have jobs and money to spend!
The developers, including foreign buyers, will then collect the discounted units for later profits. For an example look at Arizona homes bought by Canadian developers subsequent to the 2007 - 2010 crash)
*******
If in the interest of equity you wanted to stop intergenerational transfer of wealth.... you could, and you can, through taxation and the redistribution of such wealth.
I think we can all see how such discussions would verge a little bit on the political.
I look around Canada and a LOT of our economic activity and prosperity is a function of these real estate valuations.
Home **ownership** may be socially desirable--but it is far from a universal human right.
We mess around with what functions at our peril.
I have several relatives in Boston who own condos, as did my sister, until she moved 30 minutes outside Boston.
They were all likely former multi family apartment buildings that went condo.
Yeah, I mentioned condos in my rambling RE posts too. Around here they are pretty common, of course -- it's a mix of converted former apartments and buildings built as condos, varying by neighborhood, as well as conversions of all kinds of other types of buildings.1 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »It's actually easy here in Tx to get a booster. I was just talking to one of my friends yesterday morning about it (she is immuno compromised) and got her 2nd shot in Feb I think. She was able to walk right in to the pharmacy and get her booster yesterday afternoon. It will be interesting to see if she has any reaction to the 3rd. So far all reports I have heard are just arm soreness and nothing like the 2nd shot. She got Moderna I think. (and looks like that poster was quite successful in getting the other thread shut down).
On another note maybe MORE people will be encouraged to and will be able to get the antibodies now that our Governor has made them more in the news again.
I don't think that was a "booster". I think she got a regular shot which are widely available to walk into any pharmacy and get. So she got herself a third shot, but not necessarily a "booster". Per the CDC, boosters won't be available until the fall after full FDA approval (which happened yesterday August 23). From what I've read, these won't be just walk in and get...you will get a notification that you are eligible as per the date of your 2nd shot. It will go in the same order that the original shots were prioritized.
This is per the CDC on 8/20/21...so not really sure what your friend got here...maybe it was a booster and they were just starting before the official announcement of FDA approval or something. I won't be eligible to get mine until Dec as my 2nd shot was April 2 per the CDC.
I'm not sure how those notifications will work since that data isn't always in a single place (aside from the paper vaccine card).
I got my 1st dose of Moderna in TN, then moved to TX and got my 2nd dose at a pharmacy here. In May, the county where I lived in TN called me wanting to know if I was going to schedule my 2nd shot. There is no single national / international database with all of those records for each individual.
ETA: The original shots were also not prioritized in a uniform fashion. This was also a state decision. This is part of the reason I was able to get it in TN in March. I knew I would be moving soon and TX considered Type 1 Diabetics in the "healthy" group while TN put us in the "comorbidity" group. I agreed with TN and made sure to get my first when able. I got it the same week they opened it up to residents with 1 comorbidity. I was able to schedule a 2nd dose in TX only because I had already received my 1st dose.
In my state, those records are held by our state DOH and we will be notified by our DOH when we are eligible and that record will have to be provided to the pharmacy. This is to avoid a run on vaccine and vaccine shortfalls. Our state is simply following the 8 month CDC guidance for when to send notifications. This keeps everyone in the same order as the first go around.
That's great for people who got both doses in the same state and there are consistent records. For those of us who got our 2 doses in 2 different states, the systems you described functions to prevent me from ever receiving a booster.
In your situation, someone here would simply contact the DOH and explain that they received their first two vaccines in another state which is easy for them to verify. If you have your vax card, even easier and then they just register you using the date of your 2nd shot. If you had your first shot somewhere else, and your 2nd shot in state, the DOH would have on record that you received your second dose here, so you would already be in the database and get your notification 8 months after the 2nd dose on record.
Your vax card can also be used at the pharmacy here to indicate whether or not you're eligible for a booster as per the dates on the card.4 -
So I think the spread among the school kids is starting here in Tx. One of my remote employees' grandson was feeling ill and tested at the school after contact with another kid. He is positive and lives with his grands. They are both vaccinated but he was not (17) his choice I guess. So far he is not very ill but it seems like in a few days we are going to start to get the second wave of parents/family members being infected from spread at schools.
And FYI - I always have at least one disagree on everything I write so I just sort of let it go as far as trying to figure out why. I mean I could post "the sky is blue today in Tx" and get a disagree because face it, it's probably cloudy somewhere right?11 -
No, I'm not doing that, at least not intentionally. In fact, I thought I was generally agreeing with you: Yes, some people are claiming that vaccine protection is waning, but they don't have strong evidence on their side. They have misunderstandings on their side: That's what I'm saying. Those people had expectations or understandings about the vaccines that were inaccurate.
Vaccine protections are expected to lessen at some point, but from what I've been hearing/reading, it is not entirely clear that we've actually reached that point yet, for healthy adults with healthy immune systems. The evidence from Israel is not 100% persuasive that protection is waning, as I understand it, because of insufficiencies in the data they've made public. It may be true, but IMU, experts are not fully persuaded. I don't have a link for you to verify, but this was said by a virologist, head of a major university virology program, interviewed on NPR today.
Of course qualified doctors don't think vaccines are 100% effective. I'm saying that some regular people mistakenly believed that, and that that's lead to those people believing breakthrough infections mean the vaccines don't work.
Some people are saying that vaccine protection is waning. Would that be the CDC authorizing boosters at 8 months? I think a lot of us DID have strong expectations based on the 90+ % data in the vaccine trials and early in the year. That was 90+ percent total protection. It was not stated at 90+ percent you won't be hospitalized or die.
What's scary right now is that if it IS waning and Delta is more likely to break thru it is our vital health care workers and elderly who were vaccinated early who are at risk.
It sure would have been nice if there was more complete data was collected. I agree with you on that point.
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Meanwhile in SC - If schools create a mask requirement for students they lose state funding. Governor states he will never issue another mask mandate. Only 42% of our state is fully vaccinated, but heaven forbid we go back to wearing masks again.
Pre-vaccine there was no state mandate, it was left to the counties to decide. The county I live in never had a mandate, and even during the highest surges there would be people with no mask. I don't understand it.
I have no sympathy for unvaccinated (by choice) that are now getting sick. We had one co-worker, that through office grapevine we know said he would be damned if he got a vaccine. He is currently in the hospital for COVID and infected two co-workers (who were vaccinated and are asymptomatic positive). If only there was something out there that could have prevented this...hmmmm...12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »https://news.yahoo.com/u-data-show-rising-breakthrough-181525317.html
Being vaccinated still gives us an edge to decrease the health care burden.
Locally death is increasing interest in getting vaccinated and of course some are glad to point out the vaccine protection is fading fast.
But that's not actually demonstrably true, as I understand it, except among immunocompromised people (who don't mount as strong an immune response to vaccines) and *possibly* among elders, especially more-frail elders, for what are believed to be similar reasons.
People who are thinking that way (your last paragraph) bought into the incorrect but common misunderstanding that vaccines are a 100% effective invisible shield against infection. They're a dramatically good (but not quite 100%) protection against *severe* infection (needing hospitalization, intubation; dying), and continue to be so for most people. But they are, and have been expected to be, a lower level of protection against milder infection.
Breakthrough infections are happening now, yes. That was expected, to some extent, by experts. It may be more likely/common with the delta variant, since it's more transmissible. (That's still not clear, IMU, because in the US at least there aren't good statistics about breakthrough infections, partly because there hasn't been priority on collecting them, partly because it's very hard to do so anyway: Vaccinated people with mild or asymptomatic cases don't realize they have a breakthrough case of Covid; some people who think they do have a breakthrough case choose not to be tested or have difficulty access a test (there was an example of this here, earlier, maybe in this thread).)
The "vaccines are 100% protection" myth was discussed at length relatively recently here, though I don't remember whether it was in this thread or one of the other Covid ones going on in debate, where someone said they thought a an injection wasn't actually even a vaccine if not 100% protective (forever, maybe, even), and that friends they had talked to had thought the same thing.
I think you are aware that you're posting information intentionally to take my post off subject.
There is not a doctor involved with healthcare that is thinking that covid-19 vaccinations has anything like 100% of effectiveness.
The data from Israel is showing declining ability for Pfizer to protect against breakthrough infections. This is why they're starting the third dose.
Take a look at today's graphs of cases and you will see Israel is off the chart even above the United states.
No, I'm not doing that, at least not intentionally. In fact, I thought I was generally agreeing with you: Yes, some people are claiming that vaccine protection is waning, but they don't have strong evidence on their side. They have misunderstandings on their side: That's what I'm saying. Those people had expectations or understandings about the vaccines that were inaccurate.
Vaccine protections are expected to lessen at some point, but from what I've been hearing/reading, it is not entirely clear that we've actually reached that point yet, for healthy adults with healthy immune systems. The evidence from Israel is not 100% persuasive that protection is waning, as I understand it, because of insufficiencies in the data they've made public. It may be true, but IMU, experts are not fully persuaded. I don't have a link for you to verify, but this was said by a virologist, head of a major university virology program, interviewed on NPR today.
Of course qualified doctors don't think vaccines are 100% effective. I'm saying that some regular people mistakenly believed that, and that that's lead to those people believing breakthrough infections mean the vaccines don't work.
Agreed. I think it's really easy to forget in this situation that all anyone is getting right now (including the CDC) is unreviewed data reports and pre-print papers. But public health officials can't wait on the science to be reviewed and confirmed, they have to look at what they have and do their best, and probably err on the side of caution.
Every interview I've read or listened to with an actual virology or epidemiology researcher, theyve said that they mostly agree with the CDC allowing booster shots, because they see no risk and they "may" end up being necessary, but they are not convinced that vaccine immunity is waning rapidly. They tend to suspect that misunderstandings of how vaccines cause immune response by the media and local doctors and nurses is causing that assumption to be jumped to. The numbers pretty much everywhere other than Israel fit within the effectiveness parameters of the vaccines.
I'm actually listening to the latest episode of TWIV where they are discussing this right now, and as soon as I can organize in my head what they're saying, I'll post about it.
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And I just wanted to say again how glad I am that this thread is here, even when it gets a little testy
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I lived in FL for seven years, before moving back to MA 10 years ago. I'm glad to hear about school boards stepping up.
At the time, and possibly still, my local NPR broadcasted the Miami-Dade school board meetings. You'd think this would be dull as dishwater, yes? Not so, lol! Fine for the commute home.
Masks ordered for most Florida students, defying DeSantis5 -
So in my state (OR), teachers were moved to the front of the line when vaccines became available. Most of us were fully vaxxed by the end of Feb. If the efficacy is wearing off, and we're in schools with an unvaxxed population (kids), then what?8
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Apologies if this is a question that has been already covered, but I am wondering if anyone has stats for rate of "break through" infections vs second Covid infections. Basically, hubby and I are trying to assess the risk for my 82 year old vaccinated MIL by her being around a non-vaccinated person that tested positive for a COVID infection in May 2020. Is she really at more risk being with this person vs my husband and I, who are fully vaccinated with no known infection? My instinct is that it should be a draw, but I bet there is a more official answer. TIA3
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Apologies if this is a question that has been already covered, but I am wondering if anyone has stats for rate of "break through" infections vs second Covid infections. Basically, hubby and I are trying to assess the risk for my 82 year old vaccinated MIL by her being around a non-vaccinated person that tested positive for a COVID infection in May 2020. Is she really at more risk being with this person vs my husband and I, who are fully vaccinated with no known infection? My instinct is that it should be a draw, but I bet there is a more official answer. TIA
My husband is in his early 70’s and has some significant health challenges. He didn’t have much of a reaction to either his first or second COVID shot. I am assuming this means he didn’t produce many antibodies.
So I am continuing to not allow him around anyone whose vaccine status is either unknown or has chosen not to be vaccinated.
If your MIL didn’t have much of a reaction to the vaccine, I personally would advise the same.2 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »Apologies if this is a question that has been already covered, but I am wondering if anyone has stats for rate of "break through" infections vs second Covid infections. Basically, hubby and I are trying to assess the risk for my 82 year old vaccinated MIL by her being around a non-vaccinated person that tested positive for a COVID infection in May 2020. Is she really at more risk being with this person vs my husband and I, who are fully vaccinated with no known infection? My instinct is that it should be a draw, but I bet there is a more official answer. TIA
My husband is in his early 70’s and has some significant health challenges. He didn’t have much of a reaction to either his first or second COVID shot. I am assuming this means he didn’t produce many antibodies.
So I am continuing to not allow him around anyone whose vaccine status is either unknown or has chosen not to be vaccinated.
If your MIL didn’t have much of a reaction to the vaccine, I personally would advise the same.
I don't think the level of reaction to the vaccine has anything to do with your immunity. Know I read that somewhere. Seems like older people had less of a reaction to the vaccine (and more to Covid) while last spring younger people pre -Delta had more of a reaction to the vaccines and less to Covid. Now the advice is to get a booster.
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Yes, older persons have less of a reaction to the vaccine than they do to covid itself. The delta virus is "one of a kind" its more virulent. Vaccinated persons are less likely to get covid but if they do they are many times less likely to be taken into hospital with it, they are also times less likely not to recover.
I wish i could remember the process. The immune system had a memory, it tends to keep current antibodies it has not encountered so antibody if that is the right term, will seem to be less but when the system feels under threat, finds the virus to react to it builds up production of the antibodies again. My understanding is, just because antibody levels have dropped it does not mean the body will not react as after vaccination it is enabled. The exception is within the immunocompromised population who should be first in line for top up vaccines.5 -
I just saw this article in my newsfeed, and it's chilling how easily the delta variant spreads. I live in CA where we have a mask mandate for schools, and yet one teacher was able to spread the virus to half her class, and eventually a total of 26 children and adults. This happened in a small school about 60 miles away (Marin). The teacher was unvaccinated, went to class for two days while experiencing symptoms, and read to the class with her mask off both days. Otherwise she had her mask on per regulations. Every child in the front row tested positive, and most in the second row, as well as some others, and it spread from there.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marin-california-elementary-unvaccinated-teacher-26-covid-19_n_61295b80e4b0231e369bd0bb9 -
I just saw this article in my newsfeed, and it's chilling how easily the delta variant spreads. I live in CA where we have a mask mandate for schools, and yet one teacher was able to spread the virus to half her class, and eventually a total of 26 children and adults. This happened in a small school about 60 miles away (Marin). The teacher was unvaccinated, went to class for two days while experiencing symptoms, and read to the class with her mask off both days. Otherwise she had her mask on per regulations. Every child in the front row tested positive, and most in the second row, as well as some others, and it spread from there.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marin-california-elementary-unvaccinated-teacher-26-covid-19_n_61295b80e4b0231e369bd0bb
i saw that story on the news last night i believe.
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callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »I just saw this article in my newsfeed, and it's chilling how easily the delta variant spreads. I live in CA where we have a mask mandate for schools, and yet one teacher was able to spread the virus to half her class, and eventually a total of 26 children and adults. This happened in a small school about 60 miles away (Marin). The teacher was unvaccinated, went to class for two days while experiencing symptoms, and read to the class with her mask off both days. Otherwise she had her mask on per regulations. Every child in the front row tested positive, and most in the second row, as well as some others, and it spread from there.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marin-california-elementary-unvaccinated-teacher-26-covid-19_n_61295b80e4b0231e369bd0bb
i saw that story on the news last night i believe.
My grandson is in third grade in a school that is very compliant with mask mandates and social distancing and the area has a high vaccine rate, but my daughter is still getting at least one notice every day about a positive test in the school. So far no problems with his class but it's only a matter of time. We're just barely hanging in on the anxiety scale even though we feel he's in the safest environment possible. I can't even imagine how parents are dealing with having to send their kids into an environment where it seems like the goal is to get as many people infected as possible.
I mean this as a sincere question and taking politics completely out of it:
Is it possible that states countries that ban mask mandates and downplay vaccines are gambling on getting to "herd immunity" through a combination of people willing to vaccinate plus natural infection, while having as little impact on the economy as possible?
edited to make the question less politically charged11 -
callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »I just saw this article in my newsfeed, and it's chilling how easily the delta variant spreads. I live in CA where we have a mask mandate for schools, and yet one teacher was able to spread the virus to half her class, and eventually a total of 26 children and adults. This happened in a small school about 60 miles away (Marin). The teacher was unvaccinated, went to class for two days while experiencing symptoms, and read to the class with her mask off both days. Otherwise she had her mask on per regulations. Every child in the front row tested positive, and most in the second row, as well as some others, and it spread from there.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marin-california-elementary-unvaccinated-teacher-26-covid-19_n_61295b80e4b0231e369bd0bb
i saw that story on the news last night i believe.
My grandson is in third grade in a school that is very compliant with mask mandates and social distancing and the area has a high vaccine rate, but my daughter is still getting at least one notice every day about a positive test in the school. So far no problems with his class but it's only a matter of time. We're just barely hanging in on the anxiety scale even though we feel he's in the safest environment possible. I can't even imagine how parents are dealing with having to send their kids into an environment where it seems like the goal is to get as many people infected as possible.
I mean this as a sincere question and taking politics completely out of it:
Is it possible that states that ban mask mandates and downplay vaccines are gambling on getting to "herd immunity" through a combination of people willing to vaccinate plus natural infection, while having as little impact on the economy as possible?
I believe this question cannot be answered without bringing politics into it and so I won't.5 -
Apologies if this is a question that has been already covered, but I am wondering if anyone has stats for rate of "break through" infections vs second Covid infections. Basically, hubby and I are trying to assess the risk for my 82 year old vaccinated MIL by her being around a non-vaccinated person that tested positive for a COVID infection in May 2020. Is she really at more risk being with this person vs my husband and I, who are fully vaccinated with no known infection? My instinct is that it should be a draw, but I bet there is a more official answer. TIA
I share your curiosity. CDC is not collecting data on breakthrough infections (unless the breakthrough infection results in death or hospitalization, which because vaccines work, is small). Evidently some local/county health departments are. At best, data is incomplete.
There is data on the percent of all covid hospitalizations & deaths attributable to vaccinated patients (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html), but I have seen no data on the percent of vaccinated people who become infected, nor the percent of breakthrough infections resulting in hospitalization/death because the denominator (tot number of breakthroughs) is unknown.
Has anyone seen a reinfection rate anywhere-- vaxxed or not? I'm interested in that, too.1 -
edit: sorry, quoted the wrong person, I meant to respond to @kshama2001
Fair enough. I changed the original to refer to countries rather than states. I really am trying to work out how this could ultimately play out in terms of lives lost vs. economic impact, meaning will all countries in the end have a similar outcome over the long haul?4
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