What Was Your Work Out Today?

AnnPT77 wrote: »

dralicephd wrote: »

Elliptical for 30 minutes (1.7 miles - not sure how accurate the mileage is, but it at least gives me something to compare over time). The HR monitor (chest strap) is telling me that 17 minutes of that was in zone 4, and 10 minutes was zone 5 (I did some 1-2 minute bursts with 2 minutes of rest in between). Now, I don't feel like I was trying to kill myself at zone 5 and zone 4 felt pretty easy. So, either I'm too dumb to know when I'm working hard or my monitor isn't working right. lol... I'll rest tomorrow anyway so that I don't break myself. Again.

Another possibility, which to be honest I think sounds like it may be the case: You may have a maximum heart rate (HRmax) that's higher than the age estimate built into most such devices. That's a fairly common thing, and it's more an effect of genetics than anything else. (IMU lifelong fitness practice may help people hold on to a higher rate for more years, but someone who's been less active or inactive can still genetically have a high rate compared to others their age.)

If you don't feel like you're killing yourself, or at least feeling like you might consider wanting to, I suspect it's not really Z5. IME, sustained Z5 does not feel good, except in a weirdly exhilarating "hey, I did this and lived" endorphin-rush kind of way. Sustained Z5 is hard, and no one can sustain it for super long, because physiology limits the stress.

Many of the devices use 220 minus age to extimate HRmax, though there are other age formulas. My HRmax would be estimated at 154 that way. I see that number fairly often in more intense workouts, and it's not super challenging or stressful, just kind of energetic. My tested max is more around 180, which makes 154 right around 80% HR reserve, or 85% of raw max. (I don't have a long life history of fitness, though I'm reasonably active now.)

There are self-tests you can do, even submaximal tests, for HRmax, but I wouldn't recommend doing them to someone before they have good base CV fitness. (They tests are stressful, potentially risky if unfit, and more likely to give a misleading result if not as fit.)

What you can do is look up references online that correlate HR ranges with RPE (rate of perceived exertion, which is subjective) and/or with the "talk test" (can you sing, carry on a conversation, say a few sentences, gasp out a single word, or just pant frantically, at a given level of exertion). That will give you a rough idea. If you're pretty new to fitness, that rough idea may still move around as you get fitter, but it's a help in understanding. Because it's an approximate correlation, I'd suggest looking at multiple such references, for a better feel on the consensus.

Just for purposes of the thread, oversimplifying and being really, really approximate: One reference I have suggests that 85% HR reserve, which ought to be about Z4 upper bound (in a 5-zone scheme**), is where "stressed, panting, sweating freely" happens, with "very stressed, gasping, sweating heavily" being subjective sensations more at around 90% HR reserve. Another source says talk test would be at short conversations around 70%, short sentences at around 80%, few words at 85%. Very approximate, of course, but may give you a hint.

** Depends some on whose zone scheme is in use, of course. I'm using Garmin's, personally, in what I post here.

I'm just a duffer, these days, not seriously training, but you'll see the actual current endurance athletes here spending a lot of workout time in lower zones, like Z2/3, below 70-80% raw max, or that sort of thing, depending on what HR benchmarks they use, how their training plan is structured, and where they are in the plan's periodicity. Z5 is more of an exercise side dish or condiment, with the lower zones making up the bulk of work time, during most of a periodized plan.

Lietchi wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

Lietchi wrote: »

My heel is still a bit sore/stiff, so no running today. Didn't feel like strength training, so I did some indoor rowing:
5736m in 30min. Entirely in Z2 or lower.

@lietchi, that's a nice pace for half an hour while staying Z2 and below!

Thanks! Not sure how accurate my max heart rate (and therefore Z2) is, but definitely happy with my progress fitness-wise the past months.
Next step is to build up some more endurance in my back and shoulders, I have a hard time rowing for more than 30 minutes without discomfort.

Lietchi wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

Since this was intentionally a non-intense effort (that breakfast!), I decided to focus on technique. Reviewing basics is always good, and I tend to rotate through tech focuses over the Winter - things that apply to both boats and machines. For some reason (heh), it seemed interesting to focus on aspects of good technique that I've learned protect the back and shoulders. Usually, good technique (technique that makes us faster) is consonant with safe technique (things that avoid injury), fortunately.

I'm about to geek out on good technique features that also protect back/shoulders, feeling like I have a little tiny permission, but I'll hide it in a spoiler to make it easy to ignore for people who don't care.

IMO, there are two main areas of concern in shoulders/upper back, when it comes to rowing technique:

1. Rotator cuff, and the associated connective tissues. Partly that risk comes from imbalance, since rowing is only upper body pull. (Smart people do some upper body push exercises to balance stresses.) Part of the risk comes from suboptimal technique.

2. Spine, generally. Back troubles are easy to create.

For me, protecting shoulders and back means focusing on: (A) Prep out of the finish, and (B) creating structure to transfer power during the drive, distinguishing which muscles create structure vs. generate power, in different parts of the stroke.

All of the arm extension and forward body angle happen right after the finish. My arms have accelerated the last fraction of the drive, almost a snap. They immediately move away from my body at that same speed: Quick in, smooth turn, quick out. (If someone has a tendency to pause at the so-called finish, a quicker arms-away on the rowing machine will tend to drop split a second or two, almost for free. It lets the flywheel keep spinning fast.)

Length is important for better splits, so it's tempting to extend the arms away from the armpits/shoulders to get more upper body length: Not a good idea. That stresses the small muscles/tendons, which can't contribute much to power. Instead, I want my shoulders packed – stabilized – pulled down and arms connected to the torso. One of my coaches talked about imagining squeezing a tennis ball between the shoulder blades, really full lat engagement.

Forward body swing happens next, smoothly, after the arms-away - as if the arms (still packed at shoulder!) pull the torso forward. The body swing isn't bending the spine, it's coming from the big hip joints. (What I tell new rowers, and remind myself, is to think of those bird toys that sit on the edge of a water glass, dip their beak in the water, swing back up on an axle, then down again. The hips are where that axle is.) My torso should be a firm unit, core engaged 360 degrees to maintain the straight back: It’s the angle of back to legs that changes.

What I want is upper body engagement: My shoulders not forward of the torso, but linked to it firmly with the lats. Upper shoulders down.

Me, I loooove to over-use the upper body. IME, that seems somewhat more common in male new rowers than female ones as a fault, but I need to have all the faults, it seems like. Part of that is a temptation is to use the upper traps, because they're kind of big. Raising the shoulders makes it feel like the upper body is working more. It's not helpful, because it’s not useful (powerful) work.

After the forward (recovery) arms-away and body swing, the slide’s tilt, plus relaxation, carry me up to the catch, shins vertical. Then all that body set-up, described above, starts to do work, during the drive phase.

During the legs & swing part of the drive, my upper body’s job is to create/maintain structure. The structure’s job is to transfer power from the big leg muscles. I want to suspend my body weight between the handle and the foot-stretchers. In the first phase of the drive, I need to augment that raw weight with a strong push (almost like a jump, but smooth) from the legs. The arms are just cables, the shoulders and back structure help transfer power through the body. Upper body is not doing power generation, at this phase.

My first coach would say “don’t be a taco!” Bending the back into a c-shape (taco) is hard on the back. The spine is weak, moved by small muscles, not powerful. The core (all the way around) is more important, and the glutes/hamstrings do a lot of the power work in the body swing part of the drive.

Ideally, the glutes are not pinned, as one might assume, by pressure against the seat. I mentioned suspending weight between handles and foot-stretcher: I want that suspension to continue all the way from the catch to the finish. There won’t be airspace between butt and seat (or the seat will escape), but there can/should be a slight unweighting or decompression of butt on seat all the way through the drive. The drive is over when that can’t be sustained.

So. TL;DR: The major points are that I want shoulders down, lats firm. Until the arms part at the end of the drive, my arms just transfer power. An engaged upper body makes that power transfer work, and protects the shoulders. I strive to suspend my body weight to allow glutes/hamstrings to do the body swing. The body swing is primarily a pivot-like movement in the hip joints. During the whole rowing stroke, the torso is a single core-engaged straight unit, protecting the spine.

Interesting, thanks!
I'm going to pay more attention next time I row. It's not a rotator cuff issue, I think. More spine/posture related, perhaps I'm holding my back too straight (if that's even possible) or perhaps my back muscle are simply a bit weak. But I'll hopefully have a better idea next time I row, based on your explanations.

Lietchi wrote: »

Lietchi wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

Since this was intentionally a non-intense effort (that breakfast!), I decided to focus on technique. Reviewing basics is always good, and I tend to rotate through tech focuses over the Winter - things that apply to both boats and machines. For some reason (heh), it seemed interesting to focus on aspects of good technique that I've learned protect the back and shoulders. Usually, good technique (technique that makes us faster) is consonant with safe technique (things that avoid injury), fortunately.

I'm about to geek out on good technique features that also protect back/shoulders, feeling like I have a little tiny permission, but I'll hide it in a spoiler to make it easy to ignore for people who don't care.

IMO, there are two main areas of concern in shoulders/upper back, when it comes to rowing technique:

1. Rotator cuff, and the associated connective tissues. Partly that risk comes from imbalance, since rowing is only upper body pull. (Smart people do some upper body push exercises to balance stresses.) Part of the risk comes from suboptimal technique.

2. Spine, generally. Back troubles are easy to create.

For me, protecting shoulders and back means focusing on: (A) Prep out of the finish, and (B) creating structure to transfer power during the drive, distinguishing which muscles create structure vs. generate power, in different parts of the stroke.

All of the arm extension and forward body angle happen right after the finish. My arms have accelerated the last fraction of the drive, almost a snap. They immediately move away from my body at that same speed: Quick in, smooth turn, quick out. (If someone has a tendency to pause at the so-called finish, a quicker arms-away on the rowing machine will tend to drop split a second or two, almost for free. It lets the flywheel keep spinning fast.)

Length is important for better splits, so it's tempting to extend the arms away from the armpits/shoulders to get more upper body length: Not a good idea. That stresses the small muscles/tendons, which can't contribute much to power. Instead, I want my shoulders packed – stabilized – pulled down and arms connected to the torso. One of my coaches talked about imagining squeezing a tennis ball between the shoulder blades, really full lat engagement.

Forward body swing happens next, smoothly, after the arms-away - as if the arms (still packed at shoulder!) pull the torso forward. The body swing isn't bending the spine, it's coming from the big hip joints. (What I tell new rowers, and remind myself, is to think of those bird toys that sit on the edge of a water glass, dip their beak in the water, swing back up on an axle, then down again. The hips are where that axle is.) My torso should be a firm unit, core engaged 360 degrees to maintain the straight back: It’s the angle of back to legs that changes.

What I want is upper body engagement: My shoulders not forward of the torso, but linked to it firmly with the lats. Upper shoulders down.

Me, I loooove to over-use the upper body. IME, that seems somewhat more common in male new rowers than female ones as a fault, but I need to have all the faults, it seems like. Part of that is a temptation is to use the upper traps, because they're kind of big. Raising the shoulders makes it feel like the upper body is working more. It's not helpful, because it’s not useful (powerful) work.

After the forward (recovery) arms-away and body swing, the slide’s tilt, plus relaxation, carry me up to the catch, shins vertical. Then all that body set-up, described above, starts to do work, during the drive phase.

During the legs & swing part of the drive, my upper body’s job is to create/maintain structure. The structure’s job is to transfer power from the big leg muscles. I want to suspend my body weight between the handle and the foot-stretchers. In the first phase of the drive, I need to augment that raw weight with a strong push (almost like a jump, but smooth) from the legs. The arms are just cables, the shoulders and back structure help transfer power through the body. Upper body is not doing power generation, at this phase.

My first coach would say “don’t be a taco!” Bending the back into a c-shape (taco) is hard on the back. The spine is weak, moved by small muscles, not powerful. The core (all the way around) is more important, and the glutes/hamstrings do a lot of the power work in the body swing part of the drive.

Ideally, the glutes are not pinned, as one might assume, by pressure against the seat. I mentioned suspending weight between handles and foot-stretcher: I want that suspension to continue all the way from the catch to the finish. There won’t be airspace between butt and seat (or the seat will escape), but there can/should be a slight unweighting or decompression of butt on seat all the way through the drive. The drive is over when that can’t be sustained.

So. TL;DR: The major points are that I want shoulders down, lats firm. Until the arms part at the end of the drive, my arms just transfer power. An engaged upper body makes that power transfer work, and protects the shoulders. I strive to suspend my body weight to allow glutes/hamstrings to do the body swing. The body swing is primarily a pivot-like movement in the hip joints. During the whole rowing stroke, the torso is a single core-engaged straight unit, protecting the spine.

Interesting, thanks!
I'm going to pay more attention next time I row. It's not a rotator cuff issue, I think. More spine/posture related, perhaps I'm holding my back too straight (if that's even possible) or perhaps my back muscle are simply a bit weak. But I'll hopefully have a better idea next time I row, based on your explanations.

So today I did a rowing session: 6714m in 35 minutes - 65% in Z3 and the rest in Z2 or lower.

I paid attention to my technique. That suspending weight thing (slight lift-off of butt) is tricky, not sure if I got that right but my butt cheeks were definitely feeling the burn 😁
As for the upper body, still discomfort in the back after a while (just below bra strap height), the only thing that seems to help is bending forward/relaxing the back just a bit (for the whole movement, not any particular phase) so perhaps I was overextending when I thought I was keeping my back straight.