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Why do people deny CICO ?
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CICO is in general the safest way to loose weight in my opinion, especially when it comes to trying to avoid bounce back. Correctly done, to you build a habit and get a more intuitive understanding of what and how much you can eat in comparison to your movement and calorie need.
However, there are theories, that certain foods are processed differently, based on slight intolerances. In Germany, you can pay for a test with your Krankenkasse (like NHS) to determine those intolerances and how your body processes different foods in a different way. I always wanted to try that, but never got to it while still living there.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »Most Children know they need to eat less food in order to be less fat. If an adult doesn't understand that and got fat because they didn't understand CICO, that would make a good SNL skit lol. Cheers
Here's one from MadTV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck 4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »Most Children know they need to eat less food in order to be less fat. If an adult doesn't understand that and got fat because they didn't understand CICO, that would make a good SNL skit lol. Cheers
Here's one from MadTV:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck
Hahaha, yeah that's pretty funny. Has a Monty Python feel to it. Cheers.0 -
michaelglueck77 wrote: »CICO is in general the safest way to loose weight in my opinion, especially when it comes to trying to avoid bounce back. Correctly done, to you build a habit and get a more intuitive understanding of what and how much you can eat in comparison to your movement and calorie need.
However, there are theories, that certain foods are processed differently, based on slight intolerances. In Germany, you can pay for a test with your Krankenkasse (like NHS) to determine those intolerances and how your body processes different foods in a different way. I always wanted to try that, but never got to it while still living there.
CICO isn’t calorie counting. CICO is the physics or explanation of energy balance. It’s not a diet.
Calorie counting, what you are describing, is a diet.
This is what another poster is explaining and why we need to separate the two. They’re completely different things.3 -
Hilarious.
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Host-diet-gut microbiome interactions influence human energy balance: a randomized clinical trial
https://medscape.com/viewarticle/993579
[edited by MFP Moderators]
CICO is a simple phrase, which is merely shorthand to talk about humans. Not math, or truth.
I assert that to be accurate when speaking of people and our biology we must add an additional infinity sign in the middle.
CI∞CO
A calories into a human being{CI}
It passes into a infinitesimally large set of variable biological interactions, external interactions and processes{∞}
The human continues as a living being {CO}
I input 1 calorie, I have 1 living bacteria in my gut, me and the bacteria continue to live, and the calories out are a variable. This is not a bad faith argument. This isn't the one 'gotcha' to destroy the CICO discussion, it's just to point out that CICO is a nice simple concept, and it works to educate and encourage people.
[edited by MFP Moderators]
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I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
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You can say THAT again!sibilantstorm wrote: »...because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
Having my very next decision be a good one, and being grateful for what I currently have, is a technique I'm trying.
Plans and goals are fun too.
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sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
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Hey folks - I'd like to reiterate the statement at the top of the screen here in the debate section:Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
We should be debating ideas here, not throwing shade at other posters for their viewpoints or how you perceive them to share those viewpoints. If you believe another poster is in violation of community guidelines, please report the post and disengage so I don't have to warn everybody. If you don't like another posters ideas or how they phrase their arguments, you're not required to engage with them.
A few posts have been removed - if yours was one of them and you don't understand why, reach out. We'll chat.
Em3 -
paperpudding wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
"Nutrition is the sum total of the processes involved in the taking in and the utilization of food substances by which growth, repair and maintenance of the body are accomplished." Without food there is no CICO, metabolism or life.1 -
CICO is how we either gain/lose/or maintain weight almost regardless of what we eat. Nutrition does matter for optimal health and reduction of risk factors.
There are so many options on how people like to apply this for themselves for their own success.
All have pros and cons and I think one just has to find out what works out best for themselves.
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sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
I agree that nutrition is important, so food choices are important. Like you, I wish young me had made some better choices, but she did at least some good stuff nutritionally (much less so calorically).
This next is not a disagreement with the quoted post, just a comment intending to continue the conversation:
I agree that good overall, well-rounded nutrition can be under-emphasized here. Personally, I don't agree with the "only protein matters" comments I feel like I see fairly often here, and definitely don't agree that only calories matter in absolute terms (though I agree that calorie balance is what directly determines net changes in body fat . . . in a complicated, dynamic way).
But another thing I see here fairly often, seems like, is people who think they've fallen under sway of the devil if they eat a fast-food burger or a cookie. That's a waystation on the path toward "must eat only superfoods at all times" or similar extremes, IMO. After a certain point, we don't get extra credit for more broccoli.
Nutrient density and calorie density are different factors; they don't march along in lockstep.
Most fast foods, junk foods, ultra-processed foods, etc., contain some nutrients. Those nutrients aren't inherently cancelled out by the category we put a food in. The foods commonly put in those categories also tend to be more calorie dense, and not very nutrient dense. Many are not very filling for the number of calories they contain, too. So called whole foods or healthy foods also fall at varying places on those scales (nutrient density, calorie density, satiation).
Good overall nutrition is important. Calorie balance (according to one's goals) is important. Exactly which combinations of food get a person to good overall nutrition at appropriate calories: IMO, that's not nearly so important.neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
"Nutrition is the sum total of the processes involved in the taking in and the utilization of food substances by which growth, repair and maintenance of the body are accomplished." Without food there is no CICO, metabolism or life.
Yup, nice dictionary definition, not attributed . . . though it's a definition used in many places.
In context of the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that PP was pointing out that the nutrient content and energy content of foods are two different dimensions, with different roles in the "sum total of the processes".
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thanks for that Ann - you have explained much better than I could about how nutrition is obviously important - but isnt the key thing about weight loss.
Regardless of how nutritious or otherwise our diet is,and the health implications of that, we can still lose or not lose weight, depending on CICO0 -
sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
I agree that nutrition is important, so food choices are important. Like you, I wish young me had made some better choices, but she did at least some good stuff nutritionally (much less so calorically).
This next is not a disagreement with the quoted post, just a comment intending to continue the conversation:
I agree that good overall, well-rounded nutrition can be under-emphasized here. Personally, I don't agree with the "only protein matters" comments I feel like I see fairly often here, and definitely don't agree that only calories matter in absolute terms (though I agree that calorie balance is what directly determines net changes in body fat . . . in a complicated, dynamic way).
But another thing I see here fairly often, seems like, is people who think they've fallen under sway of the devil if they eat a fast-food burger or a cookie. That's a waystation on the path toward "must eat only superfoods at all times" or similar extremes, IMO. After a certain point, we don't get extra credit for more broccoli.
Nutrient density and calorie density are different factors; they don't march along in lockstep.
Most fast foods, junk foods, ultra-processed foods, etc., contain some nutrients. Those nutrients aren't inherently cancelled out by the category we put a food in. The foods commonly put in those categories also tend to be more calorie dense, and not very nutrient dense. Many are not very filling for the number of calories they contain, too. So called whole foods or healthy foods also fall at varying places on those scales (nutrient density, calorie density, satiation).
Good overall nutrition is important. Calorie balance (according to one's goals) is important. Exactly which combinations of food get a person to good overall nutrition at appropriate calories: IMO, that's not nearly so important.neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
"Nutrition is the sum total of the processes involved in the taking in and the utilization of food substances by which growth, repair and maintenance of the body are accomplished." Without food there is no CICO, metabolism or life.
Yup, nice dictionary definition, not attributed . . . though it's a definition used in many places.
In context of the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that PP was pointing out that the nutrient content and energy content of foods are two different dimensions, with different roles in the "sum total of the processes".
That's why they're in quotes. They're not different dimensions, try as you might though and weight loss requires nutrition but reductionist thinking is standard fare for the most part so I can see why people think like that, especially when it comes to CICO and calorie counting. Cheers0 -
neanderthin wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
I agree that nutrition is important, so food choices are important. Like you, I wish young me had made some better choices, but she did at least some good stuff nutritionally (much less so calorically).
This next is not a disagreement with the quoted post, just a comment intending to continue the conversation:
I agree that good overall, well-rounded nutrition can be under-emphasized here. Personally, I don't agree with the "only protein matters" comments I feel like I see fairly often here, and definitely don't agree that only calories matter in absolute terms (though I agree that calorie balance is what directly determines net changes in body fat . . . in a complicated, dynamic way).
But another thing I see here fairly often, seems like, is people who think they've fallen under sway of the devil if they eat a fast-food burger or a cookie. That's a waystation on the path toward "must eat only superfoods at all times" or similar extremes, IMO. After a certain point, we don't get extra credit for more broccoli.
Nutrient density and calorie density are different factors; they don't march along in lockstep.
Most fast foods, junk foods, ultra-processed foods, etc., contain some nutrients. Those nutrients aren't inherently cancelled out by the category we put a food in. The foods commonly put in those categories also tend to be more calorie dense, and not very nutrient dense. Many are not very filling for the number of calories they contain, too. So called whole foods or healthy foods also fall at varying places on those scales (nutrient density, calorie density, satiation).
Good overall nutrition is important. Calorie balance (according to one's goals) is important. Exactly which combinations of food get a person to good overall nutrition at appropriate calories: IMO, that's not nearly so important.neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
"Nutrition is the sum total of the processes involved in the taking in and the utilization of food substances by which growth, repair and maintenance of the body are accomplished." Without food there is no CICO, metabolism or life.
Yup, nice dictionary definition, not attributed . . . though it's a definition used in many places.
In context of the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that PP was pointing out that the nutrient content and energy content of foods are two different dimensions, with different roles in the "sum total of the processes".
That's why they're in quotes. They're not different dimensions, try as you might though and weight loss requires nutrition but reductionist thinking is standard fare for the most part so I can see why people think like that, especially when it comes to CICO and calorie counting. Cheers
If we aren't reductionist to some extent, we can't discuss anything.
If things don't have attributes we can discuss somewhat separately, there's nothing to talk about.
Personally, I wouldn't consider discussing the attributes of things, and why they may matter in different ways, to be reductionist in a bad way, necessarily. YMMV, apparently does.3 -
neanderthin wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
I agree that nutrition is important, so food choices are important. Like you, I wish young me had made some better choices, but she did at least some good stuff nutritionally (much less so calorically).
This next is not a disagreement with the quoted post, just a comment intending to continue the conversation:
I agree that good overall, well-rounded nutrition can be under-emphasized here. Personally, I don't agree with the "only protein matters" comments I feel like I see fairly often here, and definitely don't agree that only calories matter in absolute terms (though I agree that calorie balance is what directly determines net changes in body fat . . . in a complicated, dynamic way).
But another thing I see here fairly often, seems like, is people who think they've fallen under sway of the devil if they eat a fast-food burger or a cookie. That's a waystation on the path toward "must eat only superfoods at all times" or similar extremes, IMO. After a certain point, we don't get extra credit for more broccoli.
Nutrient density and calorie density are different factors; they don't march along in lockstep.
Most fast foods, junk foods, ultra-processed foods, etc., contain some nutrients. Those nutrients aren't inherently cancelled out by the category we put a food in. The foods commonly put in those categories also tend to be more calorie dense, and not very nutrient dense. Many are not very filling for the number of calories they contain, too. So called whole foods or healthy foods also fall at varying places on those scales (nutrient density, calorie density, satiation).
Good overall nutrition is important. Calorie balance (according to one's goals) is important. Exactly which combinations of food get a person to good overall nutrition at appropriate calories: IMO, that's not nearly so important.neanderthin wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »sibilantstorm wrote: »I believe that what we eat IS important. You can lose weight eating junk food, because weight gain and loss are a simple matter of a chemical reaction -- but your body will take damage over time from eating insufficient nutrients, and it can sabotage weight loss by escalating cravings as your body searches for what may be missing in your diet. Yes... caloric intake is kind of the final arbiter of weight loss, but being thin and poorly nourished has implications as you age -- and everyone ages. I wish I'd been more sensible about this in my youth, because it's damned hard to fix it in my old age.
of course.
Nutrition is also important from many health points of view - but weight loss is not nutrition
"Nutrition is the sum total of the processes involved in the taking in and the utilization of food substances by which growth, repair and maintenance of the body are accomplished." Without food there is no CICO, metabolism or life.
Yup, nice dictionary definition, not attributed . . . though it's a definition used in many places.
In context of the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that PP was pointing out that the nutrient content and energy content of foods are two different dimensions, with different roles in the "sum total of the processes".
That's why they're in quotes. They're not different dimensions, try as you might though and weight loss requires nutrition but reductionist thinking is standard fare for the most part so I can see why people think like that, especially when it comes to CICO and calorie counting. Cheers
If we aren't reductionist to some extent, we can't discuss anything.
If things don't have attributes we can discuss somewhat separately, there's nothing to talk about.
Personally, I wouldn't consider discussing the attributes of things, and why they may matter in different ways, to be reductionist in a bad way, necessarily. YMMV, apparently does.
Zooming out and looking at a bigger picture is not forgoing the details, not in the least, but separating nutrition from energy balance isn't something I'm going to let just casually slip by like it's a given. I know my opinion is not well accepted around here but I can live with that fact. Cheers1 -
I think it is important to differentiate the two, even if they are intertwined in big picture.
Obviously overall nutrition of a way of eating is important- but we do often see posts of I'm eating all clean, vegan, cut out all junk etc - why aren't I losing weight.
Important to separate the CICO weight loss equation from the nutrition equation.
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Ironically, in a way, weight loss is kind of a state of nutrient deficiency, as you have to be eating less of at least one macronutrient than your body requires to maintain it's current state.1
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paperpudding wrote: »I think it is important to differentiate the two, even if they are intertwined in big picture.
Obviously overall nutrition of a way of eating is important- but we do often see posts of I'm eating all clean, vegan, cut out all junk etc - why aren't I losing weight.
Important to separate the CICO weight loss equation from the nutrition equation.
Nutrition and the way people eat is why 75% of the population is overweight and obese costing tax payers trillions of dollars every year in the US and I don't think counting calories and the continual flow of people here that count calories and still complain they're not losing weight as a good solution. Personally I think the answer is a little more complicated than understanding math and being able to count properly. Although I also understand that counting calories is for some people the only way they can mitigate their weight gain, I just don't think concentrating on that singularly is a good permanent solution. imo. cheers1
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