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Why do people deny CICO ?

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Replies

  • annaskiski
    annaskiski Posts: 1,212 Member
    I also liked your analysis where you analyzed projected weight loss vs actual.

    Its too far buried for me to find though...
  • lakinapook
    lakinapook Posts: 14 Member

    Dvdgzz wrote: »
    I remember back in 2010 when someone came to me with this CICO blasphemy. I was all up in arms "but the spiking of the insulinssss!" Then I read the irrefutable science and then tried it for myself. I will again shamelessly promote my thread(it's a thread in this very debate forum) where I ate junk for most of my meals(for science) for 10 months and got into the best shape of my life. It's all about CICO with even better results if you try to get extra protein in and incorporate resistance training. Then slowly eat more nutrient-dense foods for long-term health. This is good news, people. It changed my life tbf.

    Are you by any chance friends with the guy from Legion who uses some friend of his as an example all the time about how he ate junk and lost a bunch of weight?
  • Dvdgzz
    Dvdgzz Posts: 437 Member
    edited May 2018
    lakinapook wrote: »
    Dvdgzz wrote: »
    I remember back in 2010 when someone came to me with this CICO blasphemy. I was all up in arms "but the spiking of the insulinssss!" Then I read the irrefutable science and then tried it for myself. I will again shamelessly promote my thread(it's a thread in this very debate forum) where I ate junk for most of my meals(for science) for 10 months and got into the best shape of my life. It's all about CICO with even better results if you try to get extra protein in and incorporate resistance training. Then slowly eat more nutrient-dense foods for long-term health. This is good news, people. It changed my life tbf.

    Are you by any chance friends with the guy from Legion who uses some friend of his as an example all the time about how he ate junk and lost a bunch of weight?

    Idk, I don't remember anyone named Legion.
  • magnusthenerd
    magnusthenerd Posts: 1,207 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    @nutmegoreo

    You just have to watch your macros closely. Think of gasoline as more analogous to carbs and diesel being more like fat. If you're looking for something meatier, use straight unrefined crude. Yeah, dead batteries are a bit like that cheese that stayed in the drawer too long...
    As far as the Uranium - it tastes a little sweeter than Plutonium, with a hint of mercury.



    :laugh: I hadn't considered the macros on it. Great point. Nutrition is important (for health purposes and satiety, not weight loss), just to tie it all back into the theme of the thread.

    See, you're confusing the two topics. From a CICO perspective, it's irrelevant if you drink diesel/gasonline/unrefined crude. CICO <> BTU counting.

    Hey, I'm creating whole new diet plan. Don't be telling me I'm doing it wrong. I have blogs to prove it!

    I mean, as long as you have some blogs to back you up and a lot of CAPS LOCK in your posts, who could possibly argue with that?

    Just make sure to be smug about how enlightened you are and how everybody else is mired in "old science" and has their heads stuck in the mud and refuses to see the genius of your plan. Disregard any and all peer-reviewed research. Then and only then you can supersede all the laws of physics and leave reality behind. How awesome will it be to lose weight while eating a massive surplus, defy gravity and be immortal, all at the same time??? :drinker:

    THANKS FOR THE TIPS. I do believe that my new SUPERFUEL diet will certainly HELP ME DEFY GRAVITY. Particularly when someone lights a match near me. Hmmmm... There may be one small flaw in my plan :disappointed:

    But your new (?) avi (which I love) suggests that you can hide that flaw from the public as long as no one opens the box.

    So your new diet plan will make you rich after all.

    If you still exist.

    Nahh, multiple states at the same time until measured is a quantum problem and gravity remains elusively macroscopic.
  • alrainey1
    alrainey1 Posts: 1 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Yes, what this thread needed was more Fung.

    I know I am late (I followed a link to this thread from somewhere else), but this response is perfect.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,943 Member
    CITO is rubbish. It doesn't work. Every time I eat a bag of crisps I'm lighter the next morning than the previous one. Thus yeah, here's the proof that CITO doesn't work, right?

    Wrong. whenever I have a bag of crisps I'm less hungry from this very low volume food and have an extra large poop. Less stuff in intestines -> less weight on the scale. Temporarily. If I overeat regularly the general weight trend will still be up even though single days might be lower than the previous one.
  • zamphir79
    zamphir79 Posts: 21 Member
    What is CITO?
    yirara wrote: »
    CITO is rubbish. It doesn't work. Every time I eat a bag of crisps I'm lighter the next morning than the previous one. Thus yeah, here's the proof that CITO doesn't work, right?

    Wrong. whenever I have a bag of crisps I'm less hungry from this very low volume food and have an extra large poop. Less stuff in intestines -> less weight on the scale. Temporarily. If I overeat regularly the general weight trend will still be up even though single days might be lower than the previous one.

    What is CITO?
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,282 Member
    Probably a typo.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,943 Member
    Probably a typo.

    Totally a typo. Oops.
  • Revolu7
    Revolu7 Posts: 1,035 Member
    CICO is definitely real. Doesnt mean you are healthy if all you care about is calorie in calorie out. It just means if you are in a calorie deficit you will lose weight. You can still be a hot mess of bad health while still losing weight. You could go from being a large pear shape to being a small pear shape too by just being in a caloric deficit without caring mich about anything else that may go into your health and fitness plan. Bottomline is, yes, without a doubt if you take in less calories than you burn you will lose weight. It means nothing more than that.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    edited April 2023
    I've actually never met anyone that didn't know they had to eat less to lose weight. Cheers.
  • Bry_Fitness70
    Bry_Fitness70 Posts: 2,480 Member
    I've actually never met anyone that didn't know they had to eat less to lose weight. Cheers.

    There are people who think diet strategies like keto and intermittent fasting magically melt away weight, when in reality, people just tend to eat less calories with restrictive diets and during smaller feeding windows.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    I've actually never met anyone that didn't know they had to eat less to lose weight. Cheers.

    There are people who think diet strategies like keto and intermittent fasting magically melt away weight, when in reality, people just tend to eat less calories with restrictive diets and during smaller feeding windows.

    I agree that lower carb and IF tend to facilitate a calorie deficit fairly easily and why they've been popular, no doubt about it. I still believe most people that are overweight and obese and otherwise understood pretty much from a young age that they needed to eat less to lose weight, is basically what I mean and meant. Cheers
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    Yeah, metabolic processes can influence our metabolism and that influence is dictated by the second law of thermodynamics which interacts with the surroundings as do humans. She understands CICO but also understands there are influences that will effect how and where that heat is utilized, though slightly I'd imagine. At least that's how some people read the situation, beliefs differ, and right or wrong that's how the human race moves forward by questioning everything. Cheers
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,225 Member
    Yeah, metabolic processes can influence our metabolism and that influence is dictated by the second law of thermodynamics which interacts with the surroundings as do humans. She understands CICO but also understands there are influences that will effect how and where that heat is utilized, though slightly I'd imagine. At least that's how some people read the situation, beliefs differ, and right or wrong that's how the human race moves forward by questioning everything. Cheers

    Nope, not her. She will literally say that calorie intake doesn't determine (cause) weight loss. If I believe what she says, she's a CICO denier. In effect, she's over-estimating the effect of those minor factors, IMO, sure.

    People are complicated. One of the reasons (I think) that she and I aren't closer friends, though we like each other well enough socially to be friendly is that she's a very black and white thinker, and I'm all exception-y, nuance-y, overcomplicate everything with details. Neither of those ways of being are IMO necessarily inherently good or bad, both have pros and cons, but our cognitive styles are very different.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    Yeah, can't agree with you more. The equalizer for CICO is the margin of error and CICO will always win because it's an easy fix, just eat less, which your friend seems to not understand at all, and confirmation bias appears to have occupy her frontal cortex. Hopefully on that journey she looks at conflicting evidence and looks at the totality of evidence, she seems like a smart person, so I hope she does. cheers
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    CICO "doesn't work" if you're not willing to implement it! Also, if you stop tracking your calories as soon as you achieve your weight goal, you will likely gain the weight back. In a nutshell, counting calories is a lot of effort!

    @annpt77 : You acted just as anyone should. Your friend asked you and you answered. The hard part is to walk away and let people do what they will with your advice. (Maybe it's not that hard for you!)

    So far, I've never convinced anyone to adopt my approach of counting every stinking calorie, logging it, and trying to stay within a program. I also have used fitness watches to estimate my calorie burn for the past many years. My failed apprentices include my wife and her sister, neither of whom can stand the practice. It makes them miserable! My wife has lost weight at times using a rules-based approach, but never by calorie counting.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,225 Member
    CICO "doesn't work" if you're not willing to implement it! Also, if you stop tracking your calories as soon as you achieve your weight goal, you will likely gain the weight back. In a nutshell, counting calories is a lot of effort!

    @annpt77 : You acted just as anyone should. Your friend asked you and you answered. The hard part is to walk away and let people do what they will with your advice. (Maybe it's not that hard for you!)

    IME, going head to head, arguing with someone who's a more black and white thinker (or maybe arguing with anyone :D ) is not a good way to win them over, if it's even possible. IME, kind of wearing them down over time, gradually, with demonstrated example and occasional minor neutral-seeming factual comments . . . that's more likely to work.

    IOW, maybe I can wear her down with a dribble of science and practice, get her to try it. Dunno.
    So far, I've never convinced anyone to adopt my approach of counting every stinking calorie, logging it, and trying to stay within a program. I also have used fitness watches to estimate my calorie burn for the past many years. My failed apprentices include my wife and her sister, neither of whom can stand the practice. It makes them miserable! My wife has lost weight at times using a rules-based approach, but never by calorie counting.

    I was able to convince one friend to try it long enough to lose a meaningful amount of weight . . . I think it was around 20 pounds. She was pretty excited about it . . . for a while. She's a bit of a flitter-flutterer by nature (diagnosed with adult ADHD) which is part of her charm . . . but it bodes ill for long term commitment to anything dull.

    I do have a couple of friends who lost a bunch of weight on Weight Watchers (earlier versions, not the current). One has stayed very slim, the other has had some regain but far from all the way back to her original weight.

    Many approaches can work for a subset of people. Pretty much nothing works for everyone, when we're talking methods. (Obviously, under the covers it's about calorie balance; but counting the calories isn't the only method that can work.) Realistically, no matter what weight loss approach people choose, most of us will regain some or all of it . . . maybe regain more than we lost.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    Important to differentiate between CICO and calorie counting.

    I agree calorie counting doesnt work for everyone - it is a method that doesnt suit everyone

    CICO works for everyone and calorie deficit is universally neccesary to lose weight

    but calorie counting is not.

    Well put. cheers
  • Bry_Fitness70
    Bry_Fitness70 Posts: 2,480 Member
    Important to differentiate between CICO and calorie counting.

    I agree calorie counting doesnt work for everyone - it is a method that doesnt suit everyone

    CICO works for everyone and calorie deficit is universally neccesary to lose weight

    but calorie counting is not.

    An honest question - if you aren't counting the calories in, how are you accomplishing your goals in CICO?
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,222 Member
    edited April 2023
    Important to differentiate between CICO and calorie counting.

    I agree calorie counting doesnt work for everyone - it is a method that doesnt suit everyone

    CICO works for everyone and calorie deficit is universally neccesary to lose weight

    but calorie counting is not.

    An honest question - if you aren't counting the calories in, how are you accomplishing your goals in CICO?

    For me personally it's the low carb diet I've been on for just over a dozen years and have fundamentally maintained my weight during this time as well. Some find the diet more satiating or basically the desire to overeat is mitigated and I suspect a lot of that is hormonal. A low carb diet does increase glucagon which is basically a signaling hormone that controls appetite and I suspect it works similarly as do GLP-1 but my appetite for sugar and sugary carbs is basically gone, even when my partner brings home Cinnabon's, which always amazes me and I suspect that is more in the brain, where Glucagon's action is in digestion. Of course not everyone will have the same results on low carb and it does eliminate starch and is basically a whole food diet, which most find the sustainably aspect challenging, because Cinnabon's lol.

    Saying that, right now I am counting calories to help with my goal of increasing muscle and I find counting to be essential to my success which is to make sure I'm within the parameters I've set out. Cheers
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    Important to differentiate between CICO and calorie counting.

    You are totally right that CICO has to work-- it's just an energy balance statement. The complications are 1) there is no easy way to know accurately what your "calories out" are for any given day (despite advances in fitness watches, etc.) and 2) measuring your "calories in" requires significant effort.

    So, while CICO is always the case, applying CICO (e.g., counting calories) doesn't work for a lot of people.

    Although, it works for me, every time I adhere to it. o:) And, predictably, it stops working when I don't! :(
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,522 Member
    An honest question - if you aren't counting the calories in, how are you accomplishing your goals in CICO?

    My wife's approach has always been to adopt dietary rules that help limit intake. Simple things like no sweets, no alcohol, no bread, limited carbs with meals (e.g., a potato at dinner), drinking 24oz of lemon water before every meal, no snacks after dinner. When she follows the rules, she loses weight.

    The main reason I can't just do that is that I do 500+ kcals of exercise on many days and I need to eat at least some of it back as carb. I can't get it right without accounting.