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Why do people deny CICO ?
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Fascinating article discussing why the body is less interested in the simplistic formula of CICO, and more interested in insulin levels than some of us might imagine... "Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant."
https://idmprogram.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/24 -
Hermesonly wrote: »Fascinating article discussing why the body is less interested in the simplistic formula of CICO, and more interested in insulin levels than some of us might imagine... "Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant."
https://idmprogram.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Shouty?12 -
Yes, what this thread needed was more Fung.
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So many people just don't grasp the concept of calories in calories out. They tell me that not all calories are equal and that you have to eat healthy to lose weight. I used to argue with these people but lately I just smile and nod. It's worked for me.. I eat basically anything I want and have lost 5 kg. I feel so many more people would be successful at weight loss if they just grasped this simple scientific concept. I'm hoping to reach my ultimate weight and then write a blog list about how I did it and prove all the CICO deniers wrong
Somehow this no longer seems relevant..........
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WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"
The fact that I agree 95% with CICO and am getting attacked for the 5% shows that this forum is more dogmatic than flat-earthers.
You are getting pushback (NOT attacked), because you inaccurately insulted many people in the forum by claiming that we said that nutrition and health do not matter, that we don't care about nutrition or anything but calories, and that we are cultists who don't allow people to care about nutrition.
I hope you do care about nutrition, I certainly do.
Not sure what 5% of CICO you disagree with, but I disagree with the claims you've made that suggest that CICO (a mere scientific truth) means not caring about nutrition or anything but calories.
Does that clarify?15 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
What's wrong with pasta?
(am Italian, and even though celiac keeps from eating it, felt the need to defend it)15 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26629551
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21037214
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/sugar-and-inflammation#section2
Dr Rhonda Patrick is the best resource for more readable/ accessible information.
Is this supposed to have something to do with pasta?6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Every buzzword in the book.
I've asked people this before... please do tell exactly what kind of inflammation this is, what causes it, by what mechanism this is caused directly, and cite peer reviewed sources for this.
Thanks!15 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I wish I could elude this debate, but alas, my carb intake has rendered me sluggish and my cognitive challenges prevented me from escaping before I was sucked into the vortex of arguing with someone who cried "semantics" and directed me to "google it" who unintentionally mixes his homophones.
Watch out. If that poster decides you are anti-semantic, who knows what he might inadvertently end up saying about you.19 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
So why exactly is pasta, which I have pretty often in many different styles - but usually sauteed shrimp, asparagus, zucchini and squash in an light olive oil and garlic sauce hurting my cognition? What cognition issues do you think I'm having? Energy levels are also just fine, for someone who works about 50-60 hours/week, has two young kids, keeps a tidy house and fits in a decent amount of exercise in my 24 hours each day as well.
Pretty much all research on health in the past 10 years has eluded to the the fact that everybody digests and reacts differently to certain foods. That is why I said that I would recommend trying for a month.
Do what you want and I'm glad that you have found your way.eludedELUDED
I say eluded because most of the double blind research provides such varying results for different populations. That eludes to the fact that we react differently.
No, that alludes to you not knowing how to interpret research findings.13 -
WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?WinoGelato wrote: »TicoCortez wrote: »
Dom is funny and obviously satirical but most of the guys and gals I know that are in fantastic shape follow strict "bro diets" (chicken breast and broccoli) and "bro splits" (low frequency/ high volume training).
correlation =/= casuation
I agree that a lot of it is correlation. Still, me thinks that healthy food (high fiber, high protein, low sugar) = more energy = harder training and better recovery.
And for people who have no interest in "harder training" and following bro diets and bro splits to achieve "fantastic shape"? What do you recommend for them? Still need to avoid eating whatever your definition of processed food/junk food is?
I recommend trying eating a diet full of whole foods for a month and pay attention to how it affects your cognition and energy levels. If you think eating pasta if worth it still then go for it.
Have any objective evidence supporting superiority of this practice?
Try google. Keywords: inflammation, gut micro-biome, cognition, sugar/ glucose.
Surprise, surprise. Guy won't even cite his sources.
"What, you don't believe me? To the google machine with you!"
The fact that I agree 95% with CICO and am getting attacked for the 5% shows that this forum is more dogmatic than flat-earthers.
We're dogmatic for insisting that the average person can fit the foods they love into a balanced, calorie-appropriate diet? Or you're dogmatic for insisting that people should eat whole food/low carb/no coffee as per Google?
My whole point (go back 3 pages or so) was that eating a low sugar high fiber diet was beneficial. It's not necessary nor was my statement insisting that anyone else follow the same diet as me.
You didn't say a low sugar/high fiber diet is beneficial. You said that MFP has a cult that only calories matter, and then you said that eating processed foods is somehow bad for us. But it's (super obviously) entirely possible to eat a low sugar/high fiber diet that includes processed foods (some processed foods are even good sources of fiber, like canned beans and whole grains).
Some people who eat higher sugar (as from fruit and veg) diets ALSO probably eat way more fiber than you. During my plant-based Lent I had some days where I hit over 70 g of sugar (quite high for me) and over 70 g of fiber.7 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26629551
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21037214
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/sugar-and-inflammation#section2
Dr Rhonda Patrick is the best resource for more readable/ accessible information.
Oh good grief. Rhonda Patrick is another person whose area is not nutrition who saw dollar signs and hopped on the money train. She really doesn't know how to interpret nutrition research and promotes a lot of dubious stuff.
Find better sources for nutrition advice, bro.16 -
singingflutelady wrote: »https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26629551
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21037214
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/sugar-and-inflammation#section2
Dr Rhonda Patrick is the best resource for more readable/ accessible information.
Funny how I live basically on white carbs and my CRP is the lowest it has ever been...
I have to laugh about this "inflammation" boogeyman. Because people like us who have AI disease and regularly have our CRP levels tested can easily lay waste to all sorts of claims about foods being inflammatory.
The biggest cause of inflammation is adipose tissue.16 -
Actually, inflammation is a good thing unless it runs rampant. I have RA and it's a booger.5
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Well it depends on the reason for their denial. My stepmother was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism a long time ago and ate more than a grown man yet continued rapidly losing weight (until she got put on meds). I don't blame her for being confused and skeptical back then. And then there's my case (rare digestive condition) in which I rapidly gained weight despite eating in a deficit. But the weight didnt show. In fact, I was slowly shrinking. Turns out, I had a 18-20 pound blockage in my intestines that had to be medically removed. I lost the weight in 2 days.3
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Hermesonly wrote: »Fascinating article discussing why the body is less interested in the simplistic formula of CICO, and more interested in insulin levels than some of us might imagine... "Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant."
https://idmprogram.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/
Fascinating if you like bad fiction.7 -
Google. Keyword: Kool-aid7
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WinoGelato wrote: »Funny enough, the ones who stick around, and are trying to really help others, are the ones in the first category. The people like you who suggest that anyone not bringing optimal nutrition into every single "is a calorie just a calorie" post is part of some cult... never seem to stick around.
So yeah, I'll continue to eat ice cream and pizza, and drink wine in moderation as part of an overall balanced diet, after achieving my weight loss goals and maintaining that healthy weight - get my 15K steps in at a slow pace, play with my kids instead of killing it at the gym, and continue to try to find fulfillment here as part of a member of this community.
Enjoy your broscience up there on your high horse. I'm sure the view is quite nice.
Some of us can’t eat ice cream and pizza. And some of us tried to be members of the community but were beaten into silence for relating our ‘CICO sure, but merely calorie counting wasn’t getting the scale to move for me’ experiences.
From our perspective we endured pedantic arguments and our points or questions stretched into straw man ridiculous statements and until we finally gave up. That is why some of us don’t stick around.
CICO is not calorie counting. It is an energy balance, and it is immutable. That doesn't mean that it is easy or intuitive for everyone to manipulate to achieve their desired results - but you seem to want to believe that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO doesn't apply. It's just not the case. You've stated repeatedly that you're an outlier, your maintenance calories are lower than someone else of similar stats. Ok, that's fine. I'm on the higher end - we balance each other out. You need less CI because you have less CO. That doesn't invalidate CICO, it just changes your starting point.
You've found a way of eating, and an IF plan that enables you to achieve a calorie deficit. Congratulations, you've managed to manipulate the CICO balance in the favor of CI<CO. That is all that any of us are recommending that someone does. Some people do IF, some people cut out certain calorie dense foods, some people increase their activity level so that they can accommodate more calories, some take diet breaks and focus on refeeds to keep their metabolism higher - these are all individualized strategies but they all just tools to manipulate CICO to achieve the desired results.
I'm sorry you feel you have been beaten into silence but challenging your misunderstanding of what CICO is, and how it works, isn't telling you that you should give up and not stick around. I'm glad you are finding success, I remember from your previous posts that you've been quite frustrated.
Lol. I never claimed CICO didn’t apply to me. I never denied the principal. All I say is that I once I figured out my CO (or got close) the real weight loss work was still ahead of me. It was not simple. It was not easy. I had to eliminate some foods completely from my diet. And I expect many others might feel the same - I’m hardly s special snowflake.
I cop to being frustrated in the past and to finding much of the forums less than helpful (much like CICO).
But yes, CICO - I can’t eat more than a certain amount of calories or I will gain weight. But you can be sure WHAT calories I eat make all the difference. Psychologically, from a satiety and satisfaction perspective, from a sustainability and compliance perspective WHAT I eat dictates my CI. Personally I can’t overeat broccoli, spinach, and lean meat proteins and the like. But I could easily eat my fill of potato chips and be 2 or 3 times over my calories and still be hungry.
Congratulations. You're no different than anyone else. Most people don't phrase it that way, but there are foods they can easily overeat because they're not nutrient dense and aren't filling and there are foods that are nutrient dense that are filling. Most of them are able to fill up on those filling foods and have calories left over to add in some treats or are able to fit in some less filling foods in a day packed with more filling foods to balance things out (like having a slice of pizza and a big side salad).
You are merely emphasizing something different and thinking it sets you apart somehow from everyone else and looking at a half empty glass that others are seeing as half full. Nothing more, nothing less.15
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