I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...
Replies
-
You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again
You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?
Learn to read.
Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???
Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?
Because I don't give a rat-**** what he believes. Like I said before, the evidence speaks for itself.
Self-reporting is inferior to objective measurement. Always has been, always will be.
The evidence I just presented. Pictures, testimony, history indicate it supports my claim. You've presented the same statement over and over again.
You don't give a crap. Yet you've posted in THIS thread about 6 times in the last 20 min. Afraid of what he might say? That it might turn your thinking around a bit? Hell, he might prove YOU right and me wrong.(if that's the case, so be it) I think you just want to adhere to what you think is right despite what anyone tries to present. That's becoming pretty apparent.
Do you know the difference between "anecdote" and "evidence"????
Apparently not.
Tell me, how is his evidence merely anectotal in nature? Point out specificaly.
N=1, self-reported, is the DEFINITION of anecdotal evidence.
Do you understand the scientific method at all????
Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?
Like you'd accept them even if he did do that :laugh:
Wait a minute? I thought you didn't give a crap anymore?!!?! Aw, you DO care.
0 -
Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?
Are you serious? Do you understand the difference between self-reported and objectively observed data?
Have you ever taken a science class?0 -
Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?
Are you serious? Do you understand the difference between self-reported and objectively observed data?
Have you ever taken a science class?
Seriously? Why haven't you jumped into that guy's thread and tell he's full of crap??? Tell him to take a science class right?
I assume his training is based on Layne Norton's advice. Which as you probably have ignored:currently working on my PhD at university of Illinois specializing in skeletal muscle protein metabolism. The purpose of this site is to provide information about bodybuilding and also to provide information about myself
If you are implying that his training is based on flying blind, it's not. It's also backed up by the article I just posted.
But I love the nosensical sematics batlle. Like your less than whitty quips really quantify anything resembling a debatable point.
He does mention a bulking session coming up. I'll assume he'll go into a carefully planned calorie surplus then. BUT it doesn't discount what he just accomplished and the methods he did to achieve them.0 -
It's practically impossible to build muscle on calorie deficit. To build muscle you would be adding weight. To add weight you need to be in calorie surplus.
Seeing definition isn't building muscle. It's losing body fat.
Agree 100% with this!!! You can add calories without adding fat by eating lean meats and more veggies.0 -
Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?
Are you serious? Do you understand the difference between self-reported and objectively observed data?
Have you ever taken a science class?
Seriously? Why haven't you jumped into that guy's thread and tell he's full of crap??? Tell him to take a science class right?
I assume his training is based on Layne Norton's advice. Which as you probably have ignored:currently working on my PhD at university of Illinois specializing in skeletal muscle protein metabolism. The purpose of this site is to provide information about bodybuilding and also to provide information about myself
If you are implying that his training is based on flying blind, it's not. It's also backed up by the article I just posted.
But I love the nosensical sematics batlle. Like your less than whitty quips really quantify anything resembling a debatable point.
A BB.com article is NOT a scientific reference, and the article I posted above it completely debunks it.
And spare me your appeals to authority. Unless you can provide a physiological mechanism that allows someone to simultaneously exist in a quantum superposition of anabolic/catabolic stats while creating mass out of thin air, then you've brought nothing to the table.
You've shown that you clearly don't understand how science works, since you don't even understand what simple terms like "anecdotal evidence" mean. So I'm done with this thread. Keep living in fantasyland.0 -
bump0
-
But bodycomposition is a scientific site? come on. He doesn't even DEFINE "overfat"
To top it off, at the end, he quantifies his article as such:As a final comment, I can say without hesitation that someone will post in the comments that they managed to achieve the above results in some form or fashion. And while there are always going to be exceptions to any generality, that doesn’t tend to disprove the generality. And generally speaking, the above is what happens in the real world.
1) You talk of absolutes while your OWN ARTICLE talks about generalities
2) He doesn't even define "real world". Again not an absolute.
3) The gentlemen here could be an example of the exception mentioned IN YOUR OWN ARTICLE.
Hell bro. Do YOU read?0 -
I'll just point out the obvious with this back and forth argument.
Has this guy always gained and lost 100 pounds? If not then its pretty simple. When you gain a lot of weight, you do gain muscle mass, as your body needs more muscle to move the extra weight around. Now you lose that weight and train hard. You retain most of the added mass, while training the muscle fibers to increase strength. The result? You look bigger at the same weight and low body fat than you did before, but you didn't add muscle mass on a calorie deficit.
I'm in that boat now, I'm currently at 20% body fat, trying to get down to about 15%. However, I am currently the same size measurement wise that I was 5 years ago, when I weighed 30 pounds less than I do now. I attribute that to body recomposition, and retaining added muscle mass from gaining 75 pounds of excess weight, I certainly didn't add mass while losing these first 50 pounds.
It's mostly a semantics argument, as the end result is the same, but the scientific explanation is the added was already there, not added during the weight loss.0 -
He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.
Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)0 -
Questions from the original post -Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.0
-
I don't understand the debate... The guy that asked the question has 65lbs to lose. My advice, focus on that. You need a calorie deficit to burn fat.0
-
Questions from the original post -Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.
If you want to be stronger lift big once you can do 3 sets of 5 or 10 or whatever low rep you set your mind to increase the weight next time0 -
He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.
Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)
Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.0 -
I don't understand the debate... The guy that asked the question has 65lbs to lose. My advice, focus on that. You need a calorie deficit to burn fat.
So if I lift weights at a slight calorie deficit, I'm going to burn fat? I don't care so much about losing weight as losing fat and getting slimmer.
Sorry if that's a stupid question, but there's so much conflicting information here.0 -
Ok, so I've been reading about the muscle not increasing when eating a deficit, and that when you lift you burn fat which makes your existing muscles more visible (in essence toning up, due to visibility of muscle). Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?
I've been lifting now for only about 3 weeks (3x lifting a week full body routine in my blog, and 2x a week cardio 30-45 minutes of recumbent bike and HIIT running). I'm not expecting results over night, and it took me about a week to hone in on what my rep weight should be. I'm shooting for 8 reps, 3 sets of a higher weight to make bigger muscles to burn more calories through existance. I've gotten a ton of info from a lot of my friends, and I understand what they're saying, I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.
Thanks in advance!
Strength and mass are different.
If you want to maintain while cutting you lift heavy.
If you want to gain mass you eat above maintenance.
Preferably 20% above maintenance!
Start this around 15-20% body fat.
Mass for about 10-16 weeks then cut again.
BUFF SUMMER DAYS!
=D0 -
I don't understand the debate... The guy that asked the question has 65lbs to lose. My advice, focus on that. You need a calorie deficit to burn fat.
So if I lift weights at a slight calorie deficit, I'm going to burn fat? I don't care so much about losing weight as losing fat and getting slimmer.
Sorry if that's a stupid question, but there's so much conflicting information here.
Yes, Strength and Mass are different. Two different goals, two different eating styles, two different workouts. You need to created a deficit from your resting metabolic rate to burn fat. You can do it through diet and or exercise.0 -
LeanGains anyone?0
-
At the 8th rep of each set, if that muscle group is exhausted, then you will build muscle even as you are losing weight. You have probably used the predictive method to determine your one repetition maximum. NEVER EVER START TOO HEAVY AND REDUCE PLATES TO DETERMINE ONE REPETITION MAXIMUM BECAUSE THAT IS EXTREMELY UNSAFE. Use the predictive method. Then, select 80% of that one repetition maximum and do your sets with that weight. This will help you. Coach S.0
-
He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.
Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)
Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.
According to him he did. Read the thread and ask him0 -
I'm currently eating at 1000 calorie deficit in order to lose 2lb per week and have been doing so since May. I do 4 days strength training per week but for the past few months have noticed next to no no muscular gains. I have been coming down in body fat/scale weight but my strength doesn't seem to have increased one bit for the last 3 months or so as I am still lifting same weight for each exercise and struggling to go any higher. Like most are saying in this thread, I am putting this down to the large calorie deficit and resulting reduction in body fat/muscle mass.
So if one can't build muscle whilst eating at a calorie deficit, how about when in maintenance? is it possible to build muscle whilst maintaining or can it only be done when eating a calorie surplus?0 -
I'm currently eating at 1000 calorie deficit in order to lose 2lb per week and have been doing so since May. I do 4 days strength training per week but for the past few months have noticed next to no no muscular gains. I have been coming down in body fat/scale weight but my strength doesn't seem to have increased one bit for the last 3 months or so as I am still lifting same weight for each exercise and struggling to go any higher. Like most are saying in this thread, I am putting this down to the large calorie deficit and resulting reduction in body fat/muscle mass.
So if one can't build muscle whilst eating at a calorie deficit, how about when in maintenance? is it possible to build muscle whilst maintaining or can it only be done when eating a calorie surplus?
Where is my :::SLAP::: button?
1k calories is close to sillyness!0 -
Here is a great article http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html - that's my coach... Basically, eat enough protein and fats for your level of lean mass and fill in the rest of your caloric needs with carbs. Find out what maintainence is for you and deduct the carb numbers that will help you lose weight. I can go on and on about the process of testing "what" does "what" to your body and the optimal macronutrient composition for you, but again, testing to see what does what to your body takes some time.
I'm still learning to test to see what's optimal. I will say one thing, when you get your metabolism functioning optimally, you can increase your carb allowance to 500 grams so the next time you diet on say 200-250 grams it's high enough where you can still eat and have fun and not starve yourself too badly. I remember the days of eating 30-90 grams of carbs a day - that was not fun at all. No one knows hell, until they've been on an extremely low-carb diet
Now that my metabolism is on fire (thanks to my coach) I'm at about 375 grams per day and I'm not putting on any weight. He figures I'll top out at 400-500 grams somewhere, I think closer to 500 grams, which is about 2000 calories from carbs only. This is fun!!!
In short, I didn't gain the weight back and I went from as low as 30grams to 375 grams, but it took time and Layne meticulously and methodically increased it and other macronutrient variables that "tries" to optimize my metabolism. Simply put, he just tells me how much of carbs/fat/protein to eat and it's up to me to figure it out and eat the foods that will hit those macros.
Now I sit at 177-180 and I'm leaner NOW than I was at 175. Doesn't sound like a lot but, the 2-3 lbs I've gain has totally changed the way I look.
Layne and I compared how I looked at 178lbs at two different points in time spaced roughly 3 months a part and visually I look so different. The last time I was 178lbs when I was dieting down and through that number I was flat, and relatively flabby. And the more recent photo of me at 178lbs I'm bigger and much leaner (much leaner). So what ever it is he's doing, it's working.
Check out my post on blood test and my triglyceride numbers, it's low for someone eating the amount of carbs I'm eating, and my cholesterol - damn. It's like I'm 18 again!!! 110 cholesterol with HDL/LDL ratio that's almost double what is considered "good" I have the metabolism of a marathon runner my physician saids, but the ironic thing is I only do cardio 2x per week :bigsmile:
So I think it's finding the optimal amount of diet and exercise. Now what "is" optimal is different for different people I guess. There are some guys like Alberto Nunez (google him) that can diet on 400grams of carbs per day and refeeds on 1000 grams of carbs. I don't think I will ever get there. He's 5'9" and competes at 160lbs as a natural bodybuilder. And then there's my coach, Layne Norton, who when dieting has to get as low as 100-150 grams dieting for a show. Layne, I believe, competes at 196 lbs at 5'10". They might not sound "huge" but if you google them, they are massive because they are at those weights literally with no fat on their persons....
I hope this helps,
N
I admire Layne Norton, but I'm going to bet that although he claims being natural, there's some enhancement going on. It's so rare to find naturals that have always been naturals their whole life and compete at such a high level.He gained weight(assuming muscle for how cut he is) and leaned out at the same time. But to qualify, he's paying 10x more attention to his nutriution than most of us.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
You increased your strength, which can definitely be done without adding muscle. You lost fat and muscle was more defined.Sorry - dont agree - I was the most out of shape person with absolutely no strenght at all - I could not lift 3kg dumbells - now I am lifting 18kg's......There was no friggin muscles - and lots of fat - I have lost lots of fat yes - but I have also built muscle - which was not there to start with - and my trainer that has also been in the business for 15 years plus agrees with me - he has seen the progress we have made from day 1 to now.....
If your trainer agrees then he is disagreeing with peer reviewed clinical studies done by ACSM, Journal of Sports Medicine, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, New England Journal of Medicine. I'm more apt to believe actual scientific evidence than anecdotal.
Though you disagree, it's hard to deny what's been actually proven by science.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Fat can't be used to rebuild muscle. Only protein does that.Just hypothetically, if you digest a pound of your own fat then theoretically you have 3600 calories processing in your body. Is it possible that some of that could be used to repair/build muscle? I know that it is far fetched but it seems theoretically posible. Therefore, the law of thermodynamics is not 'broken'. Just an idea....
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Disagree. Muscle builds on recovery day, not during lifting. To build muscle you are GAINING weight. To gain a pound of muscle, you will also gain .3lbs or more of fat with it. This is not disputed by science with the exception of the newbie, the obese/very overweight beginner, and athlete returning after a long layoff and even then the muscle attained is minimal.At the 8th rep of each set, if that muscle group is exhausted, then you will build muscle even as you are losing weight. You have probably used the predictive method to determine your one repetition maximum. NEVER EVER START TOO HEAVY AND REDUCE PLATES TO DETERMINE ONE REPETITION MAXIMUM BECAUSE THAT IS EXTREMELY UNSAFE. Use the predictive method. Then, select 80% of that one repetition maximum and do your sets with that weight. This will help you. Coach S.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.
According to him he did. Read the thread and ask him
[/quote]I like Layne Norton, but I don't really adhere to a lot he writes about. He writes articles in Muscular Development (my favorite mag) but some of the articles I've read didn't measure up to actual scientific evidence. Some of his articles are spot on, but I don't think that this one is.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Adding pound of muscle is adding a pound to your bodyweight. To add weight you eat over maintenance.I'm currently eating at 1000 calorie deficit in order to lose 2lb per week and have been doing so since May. I do 4 days strength training per week but for the past few months have noticed next to no no muscular gains. I have been coming down in body fat/scale weight but my strength doesn't seem to have increased one bit for the last 3 months or so as I am still lifting same weight for each exercise and struggling to go any higher. Like most are saying in this thread, I am putting this down to the large calorie deficit and resulting reduction in body fat/muscle mass.
So if one can't build muscle whilst eating at a calorie deficit, how about when in maintenance? is it possible to build muscle whilst maintaining or can it only be done when eating a calorie surplus?
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.
Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)
Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.
According to him he did. Read the thread and ask him
Like RonSwanson said, I don't really care if he said he did. You cannot eat less calories than your body requires to maintain weight and actually gain weight, beyond temporary water weight. He's either lying, mistaken, or your misunderstanding him. The laws of thermodynamics still apply. Even an overweight noob who gains mass in the beginning is doing it because the body is burning enough excess fat for him to be at a net calorie surplus, even if he is technically eating at a deficit. Again, that only happens with large amounts of body fat. When you get to low body fat levels, (about 10% or less,) that doesn't happen. Your body requires fat to function, and will not willingly give fat up to build muscle, muscle is a lower priority than fat when it comes to deciding what to keep and what to lose, due to fat's many endocrine and body temperature regulation functions.
So if he claims to be eating at a calorie defect and gaining weight, then he's lying. Or, he's mistaken, and his TDEE is actually lower than he thinks it is (which is more likely.) You can only gain weight if you eat more calories than you burn. Your body can't create something out of nothing.0 -
Disagree. Muscle builds on recovery day, not during lifting. To build muscle you are GAINING weight. To gain a pound of muscle, you will also gain .3lbs or more of fat with it. This is not disputed by science with the exception of the newbie, the obese/very overweight beginner, and athlete returning after a long layoff and even then the muscle attained is minimal.At the 8th rep of each set, if that muscle group is exhausted, then you will build muscle even as you are losing weight. You have probably used the predictive method to determine your one repetition maximum. NEVER EVER START TOO HEAVY AND REDUCE PLATES TO DETERMINE ONE REPETITION MAXIMUM BECAUSE THAT IS EXTREMELY UNSAFE. Use the predictive method. Then, select 80% of that one repetition maximum and do your sets with that weight. This will help you. Coach S.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I'm now seeing the 7:3 ratio on muscle to fat build.
I thought it was a 5:5 Ratio until the 4th week.
Then I measured up and sure enough!
Then again i'm eating 20% over TDEE.
No cardio and only lifting.0 -
He also gained muscle going from 175lbs to about 177lbs. While already pretty lean.
Not to mention he was training at a calorie deficit the entire time(according to him)
Well he didn't gain 2 pounds eating at a calorie deficit. Unless it was water weight from majorly increasing carbs. That is physically impossible.
According to him he did. Read the thread and ask him
Like RonSwanson said, I don't really care if he said he did. You cannot eat less calories than your body requires to maintain weight and actually gain weight, beyond temporary water weight. He's either lying, mistaken, or your misunderstanding him. The laws of thermodynamics still apply. Even an overweight noob who gains mass in the beginning is doing it because the body is burning enough excess fat for him to be at a net calorie surplus, even if he is technically eating at a deficit. Again, that only happens with large amounts of body fat. When you get to low body fat levels, (about 10% or less,) that doesn't happen. Your body requires fat to function, and will not willingly give fat up to build muscle, muscle is a lower priority than fat when it comes to deciding what to keep and what to lose, due to fat's many endocrine and body temperature regulation functions.
So if he claims to be eating at a calorie defect and gaining weight, then he's lying. Or, he's mistaken, and his TDEE is actually lower than he thinks it is (which is more likely.) You can only gain weight if you eat more calories than you burn. Your body can't create something out of nothing.
Then go ahead and chime in his thread and make that claim. I've asked this probably 5-6 times. yet no one has been in there to ask him that question. Gee I wonder why? I asked him questions, why don't you?0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 394K Introduce Yourself
- 43.9K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 176K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.6K Fitness and Exercise
- 430 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.1K Motivation and Support
- 8.1K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.9K MyFitnessPal Information
- 15 News and Announcements
- 1.2K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.7K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions