Let's talk about...the Paleo Diet

Everyone is NOT different. We are all the same species. "Everyone is different," is nothing more than an excuse.

You know, wasn't the lifespan of a caveman something ridiculously low like 30 years old?

I'm not sure I want to follow that diet...

I know this is a mistake, I should have learned my lesson earlier today on the other Paleo thread...

Yes, the lifespan was 30ys HOWEVER, scientists have found very little evidence of heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses associated with being unhealthy. The general consensus among scientists is that they simply died early due to a lack of common over the counter medications to prevent infections or provide proper hygiene. Things like that.

Right, but you forgot to copy the rest of the Wikipedia quote: "and because the average lifespan was shorter than the age of common-onset of these conditions."
In other words, they died well before any possible negative effects of their diet could develop ! :bigsmile:

Here is the complete paragraph:
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic#Diet_and_nutrition )

" It is also unlikely that Paleolithic hunter-gatherers were affected by modern diseases of affluence and extended life such as Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease and cerebrovascular disease, because they ate mostly lean meats and plants and frequently engaged in intense physical activity [99][100], and because the average lifespan was shorter than the age of common-onset of these conditions."

Please, please let me HOW you can tell this from human skeletal remains?!?!
(I would love to know so I can make a new career from this!)

Yes, we can tell a certain amount from the bones but we cannot see whether the people had "Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease and cerebrovascular disease" this is not visible in the skeletal record, and therefore no definite conclusion can be drawn, only assumptions made.

The "live till 30 years" is a fallacy and something that is annoying "out-there" in the public domain but not some standard for the Palaeolithic era, also given that the Palaeolithic period lasted from 2.6 million years ago to 10'000 years BC!!!! It is crazy to make such absurd generalisations. Personally, I think that modern humans want to feel superior from their ancestors, and one way we can do that is by seemingly living longer. It is a joke, we all have a genetic potential for age that has been ingrained in us as a species, living longer has been possible due to modern technologies, however we ourselves have not changed in this regard.

I agree with you, it would seem very difficult to tell from skeletal records if the human had diabetes, etc.
On the other hand: I am no scientist, but I do know that bones reveal quite a bit, since they are a living tissue that is affected by diet and way of life.

By the way, please note that the above words in my previous post were quoted from the wikipedia article, where they don't assure but state "It is also unlikely..." when they talk about especulation that the Paleo men were not affected by diabetes, etc based on their diet, etc.

In any case, my main point was not regarding the diseases of Paleo men.

My main point is that we can't possibly use the Paleo men's diet as a guide for modern men's diet.
Why?
Because they had much shorter average life than modern humans, and most cardiovascular and related diseases develop at later stages of life. Ok, maybe they did not live only 30 years, but I am pretty sure we can tell from skeletal remains their average lifespan, and I would bet good money that modern humans live at least twice longer than they did. It was rough and dangerous to live in that time !

To re-iterate my main point:
Why are we even interested on what the Paleo men ate?
Why do we think their diet is any better than the diet of men before or after?

Lots of interesting information....I believe we have evolved into a society based in cultural foods and location being a factor of what we adapt to for nutrition. When some of the Asian cultures came over after the Vietnam---they had a difficult adapting to dairy but now in the second generation of the influx...the younger generation seem to have adapted to dairy.

Many Americans get their daily fiber from some type of wheat by product. Also, I think in general cutting carbs from all that is wheat/gluten/whole grains can have a negative effect on the release of serotonin especially in woman who are dieting during their menses. My friends who have gone on completely raw or carb free diets talk about how grouchy, constipated they become.

The release of serotonin due to the assimilation of whole grains /lugumes into our diet has become almost innate in our society...very hard to give that lifestyle up completely.

So individual genetic make up plays no role whatsoever? There's a whole field of research down the pan, then.

Individual genetic makeup has absolutely nothing to do with basic human physiology. It's like comparing gasoline engine cars. They come in all shapes, sizes, and colors (individual genetic makeup) but they all have the same engine and drive system to operate them. Humans are the same way, we come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, some of us have more or less hair, some have slightly different muscle insertion points, different eye colors, etc, but we all have the same internal organs that all perform the same functions in the same way. While some people do in fact have genetic abnormalities that may change the way a certain system works, it's irrelevant for the other 99.99% of the human population.

The weight loss industry has pretty much conditioned everyone to believe that they fit into that 0.01% exception range, in order to sell them on whatever money making scheme diet that's out there.

Most folks turn to the paleo or primal diet if they have issues like IBS or other gut issues. Removing grains and legumes seems to help.
Some remove dairy if they are not seeing much weight loss success.
A lot of paleo or primals also stay low carb. Others don't and include more starchy carbs like sweet potatoes.
Any diet will help you lose weight, the trick is choosing the one you can maintain for life.

And some other folks turn to Paleo / Primal when we have major inflammation issues such as Fibromyalgia, Arthritis and such.

Seems that the science I have read backs up what most everyone says is merely antcedotal evidence. It is mighty funny then that removing the grains, legumes and dairy has cleared up my swelling, joint aches and pains and I can move freely do get some exercise.

I have no more acne, digestive issues, etc..............I am living pain and medication free for the first time in years.

Most folks turn to the paleo or primal diet if they have issues like IBS or other gut issues. Removing grains and legumes seems to help.
Some remove dairy if they are not seeing much weight loss success.
A lot of paleo or primals also stay low carb. Others don't and include more starchy carbs like sweet potatoes.
Any diet will help you lose weight, the trick is choosing the one you can maintain for life.

And some other folks turn to Paleo / Primal when we have major inflammation issues such as Fibromyalgia, Arthritis and such.

Seems that the science I have read backs up what most everyone says is merely antcedotal evidence. It is mighty funny then that removing the grains, legumes and dairy has cleared up my swelling, joint aches and pains and I can move freely do get some exercise.

I have no more acne, digestive issues, etc..............I am living pain and medication free for the first time in years.

UGH.

YOU may have a sensitivity (or allergy) to grain. This does not, in any way, imply that the majority of the population would benefit from eliminating it.

By that rationale, nobody should eat peanuts, shellfish, etc.

tigersword,

I think you are underestimating the role of genetics in obesity. I found quite an interesting article with Stephen O'Rahilly, Professor of Clinical Biochemistry, who specialises in this area, which includes this quote:

“Before O’Rahilly began publishing his findings, a lot of scientists considered humans exempt from biology,” says Rudolph Leibel, head of the division of molecular genetics at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons. “Now we can no longer get around the presence of genes as a regulator of body weight.”
http://discovermagazine.com/2000/may/featfat

O'Rahilly himself says:

"Anyone with an ounce of scientific nous couldn’t go away from a talk I give about the genetics of obesity and say I don’t believe that genes have anything to do with being obese – it would just be ridiculous having seen what the data look like. I am emphatically not saying that approaches towards reducing portion size and improving the quality and quantity of food we eat aren’t important – of course those things are crucial – but I want people to see that there is another side to this issue."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3046085/

I'm not a scientist, I haven't looked into his work. Maybe you are, and might wish to do so. My personal anecdote about coming from 3 (known) generations of obese people would be pooh-poohed, but would appear to be based in some kind of wider truth. Obesity can be biologically inherited, just as being ectomorphic can- my OH hasn't gained a pound in 20 years. He'd be the first to admit that he eats huge meals and junk food, does little exercise and is a beer drinker. He looks anorexic, he's underweight for his height. What would you put that down to? If I said that was due to his individual genetic make up, would that be an "excuse"? If he just ate more and exercised less, he'd put weight on in a flash? Or is it only an excuse when fat people say it? Because fat is "bad" and needs excusing, but skinny is OK, whichever way it's achieved?

I tried eating Paleo but my wooly mammoth got eaten by a saber tooth tiger and now I have nothing to ride on to the grocery store.

I tried eating Paleo but my wooly mammoth got eaten by a saber tooth tiger and now I have nothing to ride on to the grocery store.

These are the unproducrive, ignorant comments I am talking about that is just goading an argument.

If you have nothing productive to say, then why say anything at all. I swear some people get their rocks off on saying ignorant stuff.

I tried eating Paleo but my wooly mammoth got eaten by a saber tooth tiger and now I have nothing to ride on to the grocery store.

These are the unproducrive, ignorant comments I am talking about that is just goading an argument.

If you have nothing productive to say, then why say anything at all. I swear some people get their rocks off on saying ignorant stuff.

Or maybe they like using humor to illustrate their opinions. For instance, one might say that the lack of carbs makes some people a little grumpier than they need to be. But I won't say that, because I don't want to get yelled at for it.

I am not grumpy in the least. I do not like ignorance.

I don't go around making fun of others, I don't get pleasure from doing so.

I prefer to treat others as I want to be treated, so I don't delve myself into ignorance.