Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

/rant.

Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.

'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.

Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.

Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.

Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.

Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.

Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.

Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.

Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.

Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.

As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.

Paragraph 1: For a lot of people, private medical care isn't an option so we have to make do with the NHS. Sometimes organs are in short supply, but in no other case are operations denied. Sometimes delayed because of scheduling a surgeon, but not denied. COSMETIC procedures cannot be undertaken on the NHS.

Paragraph 2: My calorie requirements at the moment are 2700 to lose weight, with a 1000 calorie deficit to my maintenance. My size, active lifestyle, being male, young and of average height create a large calorific requirement and my pursuit of strength and muscle development create a large protein requirement. The cost of getting enough protein from vegetables would be astronomically higher than from meat.

Paragraph 3: I'm sure you're trolling here, or just so blinded by your narrowminded, self-righteous bull**** that you are completely ignorant to the point I actually made. By animals eating the food, they increase their nutritional density, and you can plant more food where the food they just ate was. Is it really that difficult? To make enough room for enough crops, more land would have to be destroyed, flattened and farmed. I never said there wasn't enough space on Earth, but that you would have to destroy even more of it if you want the whole world to go vegan.

P.S. I'm glad you accept the fact you are an *kitten*.

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?

In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.

First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :

http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html

Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECw

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.

First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :

http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html

Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.

Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!

I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.

Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78

Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.

First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :

http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html

Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.

Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!

I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.

Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78

Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28

First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.

Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.

First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :

http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html

Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.

Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!

I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.

Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78

Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.28

First, you should know that I am not willing to give up a kidney to save you when your own kidney fails after eating 200 grams of protein per day.

Second, what do Navy Pea beans cost in the UK. If they cost 78 pounds for 200 grams ( probably about a hundred beans) I would pack up and move to Australia.

200g of protein. I don't know if you were being obtuse or misunderstood, so that's just a clarification, either way.

There is no history of kidney problems in my family. Protein can't cause them, but can aggrevate existing conditions, so don't worry. Your kidneys are safe.

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.

One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.

Genetic modification of vegetables does not involved "growth hormones." Plants are genetically modified to make them resistant to plant diseases. In effect, what the geneticists are doing is speeding up nature.

If you ever have the opportunity to see what corn looked like hundreds of years ago, you can see what has happened. Originally, corn was scrawny with few kernels. Farmers, with no knowledge of genetics selectively bred the better corn and the result was much different from wild corn, i.e., the corn we know today. This was, in effect, genetic engineering, not unlike breeding corn that is resistant to certain diseases to get a resistant strain, or inserting a resistance gene into the DNA of a non resistant strain.

Again we are talking apples and oranges when comparing making plants resistant to diseases verses injecting steroids into cows. Yes, you have good reason to worry about the meat but little reason to worry about the corn.

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/11/61210#

I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.

I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.

/rant.

'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.

Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.