Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

Yeah, but when people go veg, they tend to eat a whole lot of beans. All that fiber... Do you know what they mean when they say there's a log in the fire? Just sayin...

>>this girl<< gets it!

and beans ain't got nothin' on broccoli, yo! whooooo!

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Of course.

For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.

per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?

so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.

I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,

And those are foods that are in their region which reflect price.

@Rhea30: You seem determined to make this point that food prices vary on the region. For the second time, I am agreeing with you--it's true that food prices vary by region. It's obvious you think this is an important point, but I have a question for you: do you think plant-food staples like beans, rice, flour, etc. are very expensive in relationship to animal products in some areas of the world? I'm not talking fragile, highly perishable produce. I'm talking shelf-stable whole foods that can be found in bulk bins at natural food stores or in the middle sections of the grocery stores.

Just as bread is heavily subsidized in France to make it affordable by all, the meat and dairy industries are heavily subsidized here in the USA to make those products artificially inexpensive (relative to the true production cost). So, in essence, US citizens are all paying a tax to keep certain prices deflated.

I am not hoping to make one-on-one comparisons on the cost of soybeans in the UK vs the northeastern US. Rather, I am hoping to give a glimpse into what we do here, since I think many people have no idea what goes on in a vegan household. Even here, I am sure I could go to an exclusive specialty food shop and pay a LOT for a small sack of soybeans wrapped with a colorful ribbon on top, but all I can do is make reasonable descriptions of how a budget-conscious vegan family behaves.

Its a point when one is claiming veggies are less expensive, it depends on the item itself and where, that's all I'm saying. And then it depends if you feel its healthy or not to just live off those types of food which we would clash.

Veggies ARE less expensive. The only reason it does not appear so is that our Sheetheaded politicians subsidize meat and dairy, so we all pay a tax to keep that industry profitable. If we had a free market in food, you sure would see the difference. Everywhere. And the country would be a lot healthier.

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

By the by, not to get off topic, but I studied a little martial arts, myself. I prefer the more 'traditional' approach of learning with an actual teacher over a mail order black belt with every purchase of an instructional DVD method that SKK uses. Anyway, back to soy beans and cancer.

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

You had previously claimed it makes you immune to cancer.

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Prolonging pancreatic cancer for 30 years. That's pretty good. Usually pancreatic cancer is pretty fast, since it has a super-highway to all your major organs. Most people are lucky to prolong it 30 days. Maybe there's something to this vegan diet afterall. Wait... are you sure he had pancreatic cancer for 30 years or are you yanking my chain?

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Prolonging pancreatic cancer for 30 years. That's pretty good. Usually pancreatic cancer is pretty fast, since it has a super-highway to all your major organs. Most people are lucky to prolong it 30 days. Maybe there's something to this vegan diet afterall. Wait... are you sure he had pancreatic cancer for 30 years or are you yanking my chain?

You seem obsessed with the fact that Steve Jobs died of pancreatic cancer. Did you know he had neuroendocrine cancer before that. And yes, 30 to 40 years of survival is possible.

http://eliminatecancer.hubpages.com/hub/If-Steve-Jobs-was-Vegan-Why-Did-He-Die-of-Cancer

Hey I'm on your side here. I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

You had previously claimed it makes you immune to cancer.

I doubt that. It certainly cannot make you immune to something you already have. Statistically, vegetarianism gives you less suseptibility to cancer than a lifestyle that involves eating meat. That is certain and statiscially shown. Immune may be too strong a word, but less susceptible is certainly true.

But let's get back to what you said. I asked you some questions, for example what health problems did you have as a vegetarian, how long were you a vegetarian, and how do you feed a family for less than $3 per person per meal, particularly with meat.

I am particularly interested in how long you were a vegetarian : months? weeks? days? minutes? What diseases did you catch from the vegetables? If you were just feeling weak, how do you know it wasn't all in your head? Again, inquiring minds want to know.

I've talked a bit about it in a post above and I gave an example above as well about feeding a person for under 3 dollars per meal with meat. Right now I've made a batch of turkey zucchini burgers (got the idea from Skinnytaste.com btw!). I use 2lbs ground turkey, it cost me close to 6 dollars (it was 5 something), the two zucchinis cost me .77 cents (for both, not each) and I use one onion but I dont know the cost of one onion since I have a bag of them which cost me close to 1.50 (for the bag) so I'll just add in .30 cents for the onion (I'm estimating high).
I'm able to yield 10-14 patties from this, so if I use 10 patties that's about .70 cents for the one patty and I'm lucky I'm close to a store where a loaf of bread cost me .98 cents which the loaf has 22 slices so using two slices cost around .44 cents. That feeds me at 1.14, and I can add on the side either broccoli which I got, a can of green beans which was only around .70 cents and I wouldn't eat the whole can or a breaburn apple I had bought for .40 cents. Either way it comes out to under 3 dollars and its a balanced meal that included meat and I'm sure I could find even cheaper ground meat if I wanted too since turkey is normally a higher price then beef.
Even with something like pork chops, I don't recall what kind I use to get but I use to be able to get a pretty large pack for 5 dollars and it was enough to feed 5 people and once again just add some side veggies or potatoes and it comes out to under 3 dollars per person. There's all sorts of things you can do to feed people a meal under 3 dollars that includes meat. Chicken legs is another one you can get as well.

Each time I see a topic like this, I want to reply, and then I think should I? I'm going to do it and hope I don't get dogpiled.

I have been a vegetarian or pescatarian for 20 years. That is half my life.

I have been overweight for most of the last 10 years. ::GASP!:: I know, right? Fat vegetarian.

People assume that if you're a vegetarian, you can't be overweight and you must be healthy. Not true. If you're sedentary, you can get fat. If you consume too much food, you can get fat. If you drink alcohol, you can get fat. If you eat a ton of processed crap - even if it doesn't have meat in it - you can get fat.

AND, you can spend your entire life living cleanly, and still end up with cancer.

It's kind of silly to go about making assumptions or generalizations on either end of the spectrum.

I look at the practice of putting something into my body as being as personal as my religion. I would never, ever presume to tell someone else how to eat.

I choose to not eat animals or birds. I prepare them for my husband because he chooses to eat meat. (And he is quite lovely about eating vegetarian most of the time, too, I might add.) And when I do, I purchase high quality, independently produced, "friendly" meats whenever possible.

Do I wish he were a vegetarian? Do I wish it for you? How could I? It's personal, right?

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Prolonging pancreatic cancer for 30 years. That's pretty good. Usually pancreatic cancer is pretty fast, since it has a super-highway to all your major organs. Most people are lucky to prolong it 30 days. Maybe there's something to this vegan diet afterall. Wait... are you sure he had pancreatic cancer for 30 years or are you yanking my chain?

You seem obsessed with the fact that Steve Jobs died of pancreatic cancer. Did you know he had neuroendocrine cancer before that. And yes, 30 to 40 years of survival is possible.

http://eliminatecancer.hubpages.com/hub/If-Steve-Jobs-was-Vegan-Why-Did-He-Die-of-Cancer

Dr. John McDougall did an interesting analysis of the likely origins/progression of Steve Jobs' cancer. I will add that Dr. McDougall is biased in favor of a plant-based diet, but it is nonetheless a fascinating read:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl/nov/jobs.htm

I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.

Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.

As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.

And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?

Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.

I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.

Yeah, he died. In all likelihood Jobs likely had Pancreatic Cancer since his 20s and when he became a vegan, that probably prolonged his life. The Vegan diet is not a cure for cancer, it is a preventative, and Jobs was handling toxic chemicals since he built his first computer in his garage in his 20's. I know of lots of cases of people who are diagnosed with cancer and THEN become vegans. The time to get religion is before you get a disease like cancer. And in any case everybody dies. In Jobs case it was probably his exposure to heavy metals from hand building the first Apples that caused the cancer. This was long before he became a vegan.

I feel sorry for Jobs because he believed strongly that the vegan diet would save him, and others have made the same mistake. The Vegan diet may extent your life after you get cancer, but it is no cure for cancer.

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters. Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

You had previously claimed it makes you immune to cancer.

I doubt that. It certainly cannot make you immune to something you already have. Statistically, vegetarianism gives you less suseptibility to cancer than a lifestyle that involves eating meat. That is certain and statiscially shown. Immune may be too strong a word, but less susceptible is certainly true.

But let's get back to what you said. I asked you some questions, for example what health problems did you have as a vegetarian, how long were you a vegetarian, and how do you feed a family for less than $3 per person per meal, particularly with meat.

I am particularly interested in how long you were a vegetarian : months? weeks? days? minutes? What diseases did you catch from the vegetables? If you were just feeling weak, how do you know it wasn't all in your head? Again, inquiring minds want to know.

I've talked a bit about it in a post above and I gave an example above as well about feeding a person for under 3 dollars per meal with meat. Right now I've made a batch of turkey zucchini burgers (got the idea from Skinnytaste.com btw!). I use 2lbs ground turkey, it cost me close to 6 dollars (it was 5 something), the two zucchinis cost me .77 cents (for both, not each) and I use one onion but I dont know the cost of one onion since I have a bag of them which cost me close to 1.50 (for the bag) so I'll just add in .30 cents for the onion (I'm estimating high).
I'm able to yield 10-14 patties from this, so if I use 10 patties that's about .70 cents for the one patty and I'm lucky I'm close to a store where a loaf of bread cost me .98 cents which the loaf has 22 slices so using two slices cost around .44 cents. That feeds me at 1.14, and I can add on the side either broccoli which I got, a can of green beans which was only around .70 cents and I wouldn't eat the whole can or a breaburn apple I had bought for .40 cents. Either way it comes out to under 3 dollars and its a balanced meal that included meat and I'm sure I could find even cheaper ground meat if I wanted too since turkey is normally a higher price then beef.
Even with something like pork chops, I don't recall what kind I use to get but I use to be able to get a pretty large pack for 5 dollars and it was enough to feed 5 people and once again just add some side veggies or potatoes and it comes out to under 3 dollars per person. There's all sorts of things you can do to feed people a meal under 3 dollars that includes meat. Chicken legs is another one you can get as well.

I have to agree that that is certainly better than the $3 MacDonnald's meal of burger, fries and soda. My wife makes a similar kind of patty (vegan of course) substituting stuff she has left after making soy milk for the meat. They are FABULOUS, but I usually have about 5 or six at a sitting, along with veggies. We don't get canned veggies, but either fresh or frozen. I will have to ask her how much that meal costs, but it is probably more expensive than your $1.14 (I eat a lot more than you do). We also use either homemade bread (which is cheap) or Quinoa Flax bread (which is expensive). She also makes a soy yougurt which tastes like creme fraiche which she puts over strawberries, adding honey. God, is that good! Overall that is more expensive than yours but it is a different quantity, unless we use the homemade bread, more expensive bread, and an expensive dessert.

......

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters.]Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Can you cite at least one peer reviewed study supporting this assertion?

Here is a position paper that cites dozens of studies:

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/adapaper.htm

Here are others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5698784/Being-a-vegetarian-can-cut-your-risk-of-cancer-by-a-half-claim-scientists.html

http://vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

The major studies, the German study the China study, the Framingham study are not cited here. You can google those.

......

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters.]Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Can you cite at least one peer reviewed study supporting this assertion?

Here is a position paper that cites dozens of studies:

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/adapaper.htm

Here are others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5698784/Being-a-vegetarian-can-cut-your-risk-of-cancer-by-a-half-claim-scientists.html

http://vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

The major studies, the German study the China study, the Framingham study are not cited here. You can google those.

Had a look at several of the citations and saw the word correlation used frequently and we all know that correlation does not prove causation.

Interestingly :

"However, Allen urged caution over the interpretation of the findings. "It is a significant difference, but we should be a bit cautious since it is the first study showing that the risk of cancer of the blood is lower in vegetarians. We need to know what aspect of a fish and vegetarian diet is protecting against cancer. Is it the higher fibre intake, higher intake of fruit and vegetables, is it just meat per se?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk

I'd also be curious to see more information on the socio-economic status of the participants in the British as that has been determined to be a leading indicator or risk of premature death from all causes. We may be witnessing skewed results as the result of selection bias (ie are vegans more likely to avoid other behaviours that have been linked to cancer and heart disease risk?).

I also suspect that this:

"Cancer is not caused by bacteria, faulty diet, inadequate exercise, environmental contaminants, ionizing radiation, tobacco, viruses, nor heredity. "
http://vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

could be considered a minority opinion. (I wonder if the good doctor smokes? ) and even his conclusions stated "There is a modest negative correlation with these cancers and plant source food consumption."

So, back to my original question, perhaps phrased more precisely. Have there been any peer reviewed papers that prove causality between plant based diets and lower risk of cancer, heart disease etc?

Since you obviously took stats 101 at some point in your life, perhaps you know that research is set up to prove the null hypothesis (in essence, there is NO DIFFERENCE between control and test groups). Science is the best chance we have to understand complex truths, but you are naive to think any research can 'prove causality.'

......

Bytheway, in case you're interested, nobody has claimed that a vegan diet will allow you to live forever. Why don't you come back when you are 69 and we'll talk about how many mountains you have climbed in the last year or so.

Statistics is the science of large numbers, not of predicting any single individual's longevity. Statistically we vegetarians live longer, have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease, and are healthier and more active than similarly aged meat eaters.]Practically every study proves that. Some would-be genius might pick out the name of some vegetarian who died young, but that proves nothing, except that he has knows nothing about statistics.

Can you cite at least one peer reviewed study supporting this assertion?

Here is a position paper that cites dozens of studies:

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/adapaper.htm

Here are others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5698784/Being-a-vegetarian-can-cut-your-risk-of-cancer-by-a-half-claim-scientists.html

http://vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

The major studies, the German study the China study, the Framingham study are not cited here. You can google those.

Had a look at several of the citations and saw the word correlation used frequently and we all know that correlation does not prove causation.

Interestingly :

"However, Allen urged caution over the interpretation of the findings. "It is a significant difference, but we should be a bit cautious since it is the first study showing that the risk of cancer of the blood is lower in vegetarians. We need to know what aspect of a fish and vegetarian diet is protecting against cancer. Is it the higher fibre intake, higher intake of fruit and vegetables, is it just meat per se?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/jul/01/vegetarians-blood-cancer-diet-risk

I'd also be curious to see more information on the socio-economic status of the participants in the British as that has been determined to be a leading indicator or risk of premature death from all causes. We may be witnessing skewed results as the result of selection bias (ie are vegans more likely to avoid other behaviours that have been linked to cancer and heart disease risk?).

I also suspect that this:

"Cancer is not caused by bacteria, faulty diet, inadequate exercise, environmental contaminants, ionizing radiation, tobacco, viruses, nor heredity. "
http://vegsource.com/harris/cancer_vegdiet.htm

could be considered a minority opinion. (I wonder if the good doctor smokes? ) and even his conclusions stated "There is a modest negative correlation with these cancers and plant source food consumption."

So, back to my original question, perhaps phrased more precisely. Have there been any peer reviewed papers that prove causality between plant based diets and lower risk of cancer, heart disease etc?

Since you obviously took stats 101 at some point in your life, perhaps you know that research is set up to prove the null hypothesis (in essence, there is NO DIFFERENCE between control and test groups). Science is the best chance we have to understand complex truths, but you are naive to think any research can 'prove causality.'

Which means you then agree that his statement "practically every study proves..." to be inaccurate. That's what I'm questioning, he used the word "proves".

I would disagree with the naive bit because I already knew that it's an impossible burden - there are far too many variables involved which leads back to nullifying the assertion that a vegan diet is in any way superior to an omnivorous one. Humans evolved as omnivores, we also developed the intellectual capacity to make choices based on personal values . I have no problem with anyone who chooses not to eat meat, I do have a problem with the faulty assertions that a vegan diet is superior to an omnivorous one.

I think the vegan diet is the kindest one around with respect to the treatment of animals. That's enough for me. But, even though research--by its very design--will never *prove* anything, I pay attention to epidemiological/ecological research because sometimes correlation and causation are one and the same, even if it can't be scientifically stated in this way.