Vegetarianism. Seriously? (A Debate)

OP, after reading through this thread you seem like a pretty reasonable and personable guy, just to get that out of the way. I'll also include the obligatory "I'm not one of those BAD EVIL PUSHY type vegans who wants EVERYONE TO BE JUST LIKE THEM", because it's true. I'm really not. But I'm also not going to pretend that this is just a "to each their own" kind of issue like a lot of people in the thread are, because I don't really think it is for most people who sincerely take the time to try to think about and answer it.

I think when it comes down to it and all joking aside, most people subscribe at least generally to the notion that we as individuals shouldn't be the cause of unnecessary harm in the world. We just don't like to think of the things we personally like to do as causing harm or as unnecessary.

The basic ethical argument is that just because we might /like/ to dominate fellow animals that are capable of thinking and suffering (though for the most part obviously not approaching humans' degree of rationality or self-awareness), kill them, and use their bodies to make food, clothing, cell phone cases, etc doesn't mean we /ought/ to, especially in a first world country in the 21st century where we don't /need/ to. We need to use living things for at least some of those purposes, sure, but we live in a time and place where we can choose plant or mineral based materials made from things that are demonstrably incapable of thinking or suffering in the way that animals are.

It does seem plausible to say that at some point in the past and/or in some parts of the world having meat and dairy in one's diet might be a nutritional necessity for humans because of geographical limitations, resource scarcity, limited knowledge about nutrition, etc, but I would guess that it has never been the case for a single person posting in this thread for as long as they've lived. It can be legitimately hard to internalize after a lifetime of having animal-eating reinforced by everything and everyone around you, but just because we've evolved this far as omnivores doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't individually adjust our "natural" behaviors for cultural or ethical reasons. There are many "natural" parts of our evolutionary heritage that we have found reason to broadly reject as unacceptable: genocide, rape, people as property, cannibalism, random aggression, theft, and kicking puppies, just to name a few.

And, by the way, that antibiotic-laced, ammonia-cleaned, and growth-hormone-engineered machine-shaped frozen burger patty, cut from from a test-tube-bred cow fed via conveyer belt with genetically modified corn husks, on a refined white bread bun made with hydrogenated oil and sweetened with high fructose corn syrup, sitting next to fries made from a potato that is legally regulated as a pesticide? Not exactly "natural" either.

Without the nature/necessity argument, it seems that the only remaining reasons to eat meat are (1) social convention and/or habit dictate that we should (i.e. it's more convenient for us in our specific time and place) and (2) because we enjoy the taste (though for most people it seems like just not eating meat for awhile makes the thought of doing so pretty repellant). Both of those frankly seem like pretty shaky reasons when weighed against the killing and/or suffering of literally billions of animals, shady meat and dairy industry practices, heart disease, colon and prostate cancer, etc.

Just my two cents, you know, since you asked.

Does anybody think about cheese and milk...how much fat is hidden in them?
Whole milk is 49% fat. Cheddar cheese is 74% fat.
Casein makes up 80% of milk. It is a protein that is a powerful histamine that creates a lot of mucus.
I myself find my sinuses cleared up a lot when I gave it up. Plus I am lactose intolerant.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1398-9995.1996.tb04639.x/abstract
Cow's milk is allowed to have feces in it. Source...some biased article I found on the net, wait, just kidding, CDC source
http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-and-answers.html#hurt

To be fair, they burn the *bleep* out of it, so the **** in it won't harm you.

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

all it takes is a mutlivitamin???? Wow....really??? Come on now. I work in a hospital. Did you know that when a vegan has surgery, we all groan. Why? because they take twice as long to heal. Even the ones that follow the diet carefully, and take "itty bitty multi vitamins" have this issue. If you don't eat meat for moral reasons that is yoru choice, but please.....it is not biologically prudent for human beings, who are natural omnivores, to eat vegan.

Many people take multivitamins for the extra insurance, so why so adversarial?

I also 'worked in a hospital' for over 20 years. Your comment about vegans not healing well after surgery is a new one to me. Also, my experience in hospitals makes me wonder what you do which gives you knowledge of surgical follow-up, since most of that happens in outpatient settings. Are you a surgeon who has hospital OR privileges, who also does post-op follow-up in her office. How do you know vegans take twice as long to heal? I am not challenging you. I'm curious, since my hospital career exposed me to acute care and not follow-up.

I am a nurse in a small hospital on the medical/surgical ward. When a vegan comes in and has surgery and is admmitted, their incisions take much longer to heal. Slow closing wounds are much more succeptable to infection. They not only have longer hospital stays..but are more likely to have to be readmitted later for post op complications.

We had one woman last year who was a uber healthy fit vegan. Her c-section incision took a YEAR to heal. She was hosopitalized twice after the initial surgery for infection (she went septic at one point). The nutritionist kept telling her to eat some meat...even some chicken or eggs..didn't have to be a steak or a burger, but this patient insisted that she could get her essential amino's from other sources.

This is just ONE example. WE see it with most vegans. Vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs and such typically do NOT have these issues.

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

all it takes is a mutlivitamin???? Wow....really??? Come on now. I work in a hospital. Did you know that when a vegan has surgery, we all groan. Why? because they take twice as long to heal. Even the ones that follow the diet carefully, and take "itty bitty multi vitamins" have this issue. If you don't eat meat for moral reasons that is yoru choice, but please.....it is not biologically prudent for human beings, who are natural omnivores, to eat vegan.

Many people take multivitamins for the extra insurance, so why so adversarial?

I also 'worked in a hospital' for over 20 years. Your comment about vegans not healing well after surgery is a new one to me. Also, my experience in hospitals makes me wonder what you do which gives you knowledge of surgical follow-up, since most of that happens in outpatient settings. Are you a surgeon who has hospital OR privileges, who also does post-op follow-up in her office. How do you know vegans take twice as long to heal? I am not challenging you. I'm curious, since my hospital career exposed me to acute care and not follow-up.

I am a nurse in a small hospital on the medical/surgical ward. When a vegan comes in and has surgery and is admmitted, their incisions take much longer to heal. Slow closing wounds are much more succeptable to infection. They not only have longer hospital stays..but are more likely to have to be readmitted later for post op complications.

We had one woman last year who was a uber healthy fit vegan. Her c-section incision took a YEAR to heal. She was hosopitalized twice after the initial surgery for infection (she went septic at one point). The nutritionist kept telling her to eat some meat...even some chicken or eggs..didn't have to be a steak or a burger, but this patient insisted that she could get her essential amino's from other sources.

This is just ONE example. WE see it with most vegans. Vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs and such typically do NOT have these issues.

I love meat...especially my husband's. He is really great in the kitchen.

Really. F'n really? I mean... seriously. Really?

Question for you - out of all the posts where vegetarians have very politely and eloquently discussed their reasons for being vegetarian, with only a handful of 'meat is murder' type posts and a few actually debating the issue (politely), why the statement that many vegetarians are angry and defensive?

I skipped over this one... on Page 8 alone, one Veggie questioned my competency as an attorney. And another one explained that I take steroids, and would likely die soon of heart failure.

Bless you. Are you referring to me here? Because if so, in my post on page 8, I was questioning your capacity to engage in reasoned argument. I have no knowledge of your competence to practice law, and indeed, did not mention your legal competence at all. It was you who shoved that into the conversation, though its relevance to the topic at hand is beyond me. (I assume you were making some kind of 'appeal to authority' plea?)

You do seem very tangential.

Hmm. I do like turtles.

If you overeat animal flesh the animals will have the last word. Heart disease, cholesterol, high blood pressure. Enjoy them. ;-0 Karma can be such a

---

.

Look in the mirror? See those pointy, sharp little teeth at the sides of your mouth? Those are designed for ripping and tearing animal flesh.

Yum, meat.

Is this what you see when you look in the mirror?

http://free-extras.com/images/tiger_teeth-210.htm

One thing I will say about meat eaters that I don't understand is the arbitrary nature of which animals are chosen to be eaten and which ones appall you. Why is eating a cow or chicken different than eating a horse or a cat? That's one thing I simply can't wrap my head around. Ah well.