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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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"Holistic" can mean different things to different people and I'm different contexts. Like all words, I guess. So many peddlers of woo have described their wares as "holistic" that for many people the term itself has come to symbolize woo.9
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finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html9 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I guess I specifically meant paying money for sound common sense advice sandwiched in fringe ideas and imaginary illnesses where you go in for advice about post-antibiotic care and come out with advice about post-antibiotic care (that may or may not be valid) plus a host of other unsubstantiated diagnoses and unnecessary treatments and a lighter wallet.
What you're describing is like a psychiatrist who prescribes medications for a certain issue then encourages the patient to include exercise a few times a week as a prophylactic measure when weaning off the medication if no longer needed. Or someone with a mild case of diarrhea making sure to drink enough water to rehydrate. Sound advice that doesn't involve medications but doesn't come attached with all sorts of pseudoscience and a large bill.
If you meant health supporting non-pharmaceutical practices, then I'm with you. There is nothing wrong with those (as long as they're not fully replacing real medical care or introducing/removing substances for which safety is unknown).4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html
And what's that got to do with me ? People make mistakes all the time . Who am i to judge others ?
I don't agree with lots of things people do . If someone wants to stand on one leg in the middle of a field and sing kumbaya , they can have at it . If you really don't like what people do medically , say it to them in person . You might change their mind , you might not .23 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I would distinguish between the idea of a holistic approach (focusing on lifestyle), which I think is great and few would argue with, and what OP is asking about -- so-called "holistic practitioners" who diagnose things like candida overgrowth or adrenal fatigue or leaky gut that medical doctors don't recognize at all, and that supposedly requires "detox" and a special diet and often some very sketchy and expensive supplements.
Note: by special diet here I don't mean a sensible, healthy diet or focusing on how eating particular ways makes you feel.7 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning. I've been on mfp for several years and I've learned quite a bit on here, but a lot of the information on mfp contradicts the information I'm learning in school. People think everything from a holistic standpoint is "woo" or BS. Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide. It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer in using nutrition and lifestyle as a way to improve health and manage some chronic health conditions. The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the proposition that changes to diet and lifestyle can change your health. The woo comes in when people selling programs, courses, diet pills, etc tell you that there is "scientific evidence" that eating Y cures X or eating Z will prevent X.
If you are being asked to pay lots of money to be told that lifestyle and nutrition can effect health then yeah you might be being scammed but its hard to say 100% without knowing more. I mean, that info is pretty free right? Especially if you can find scientific evidence for it, which presumably you didn't have to pay for right...because science doesn't typically change you a monthly service fee.
I wouldn't say I am "against" such claims, just that I remain very skeptical of anyone selling something that they claim will change your life. The things in life that are actual game changers...tend to be free.7 -
finny11122 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html
And what's that got to do with me ? People make mistakes all the time . Who am i to judge others ?
I don't agree with lots of things people do . If someone wants to stand on one leg in the middle of a field and sing kumbaya , they can have at it . If you really don't like what people do medically , say it to them in person . You might change their mind , you might not .
OP asked: "I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning.... The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?"
People responded "yes, we think you are."
Isn't that saying it to her in person (and not rudely, she expressed concern and the desire for opinions).
I really can't see what your problem here is. Do you think people should have said "oh, whatever, do what makes you happy, I have no opinion"?14 -
finny11122 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html
And what's that got to do with me ? People make mistakes all the time . Who am i to judge others ?
I don't agree with lots of things people do . If someone wants to stand on one leg in the middle of a field and sing kumbaya , they can have at it . If you really don't like what people do medically , say it to them in person . You might change their mind , you might not .
This comment, written by you earlier, sounds like a judgment: "What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them ."
If what you mean is that you're okay with some type of judgments but not others, then just say so. But clearly you aren't opposed to judgment overall (or should you be, it can sometimes be a useful social force).10 -
There’s freedom to be fools but I think society does have the right to call out the humbugs.
Those promoting chelation therapy and naetrile have preyed on desperate people (cancer cures). Is that right?
On the other hand I have seen doctors allow unorthodox (useless) treatments once all conventional treatments have failed. That could fall under the category of “do no harm”.
I recall a faithful lady who went up for healing st my church every Sunday. Her faith was unflagging, unassailable. I asked her about her condition, which left her permanently bent over at the waist.
“Oh, no” she said, “There is surgery for it. I’d rather wait for God’s healing and give Him the glory.”
Where is the glory in permanent impairment?6 -
I mean a general litmus test of "is it a scam" would be.
Does it cost a lot of money?
Could I reach my ultimate end goal via a different method that does not cost a lot of money?
If the answer is yes to both of those than really for all purposes it basically is a scam, whether there is ill intent or not.6 -
There’s freedom to be fools but I think society does have the right to call out the humbugs.
Those promoting chelation therapy and naetrile have preyed on desperate people (cancer cures). Is that right?
On the other hand I have seen doctors allow unorthodox (useless) treatments once all conventional treatments have failed. That could fall under the category of “do no harm”.
I recall a faithful lady who went up for healing st my church every Sunday. Her faith was unflagging, unassailable. I asked her about her condition, which left her permanently bent over at the waist.
“Oh, no” she said, “There is surgery for it. I’d rather wait for God’s healing and give Him the glory.”
Where is the glory in permanent impairment?
Tell her "God is upstairs smacking his head and exclaiming, I created the dang surgeon and gave him his intellect and talents to heal you!"
I don't know whether to add the laughing face or the crying face.19 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html
And what's that got to do with me ? People make mistakes all the time . Who am i to judge others ?
I don't agree with lots of things people do . If someone wants to stand on one leg in the middle of a field and sing kumbaya , they can have at it . If you really don't like what people do medically , say it to them in person . You might change their mind , you might not .
OP asked: "I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning.... The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?"
People responded "yes, we think you are."
Isn't that saying it to her in person (and not rudely, she expressed concern and the desire for opinions).
I really can't see what your problem here is. Do you think people should have said "oh, whatever, do what makes you happy, I have no opinion"?
And why you saying it to me ? Did you not read my opinion on all this . I gave my opnion many times already .12 -
finny11122 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »finny11122 wrote: »Hollistic approach is great and has helped people for thousands of years .
Modern medicine also has it's place and has helped countless people .
What's wrong is someone jumping down someone's throat because they shared with the world an approach that worked for them . The PC brigrades and the strongly worded letter types are always waiting in the internet shadows ready to pounce on someone .
Do and enjoy what works for you and makes you healthy and happy .
Making up fake diagnoses and therefore curing fake diagnoses isn't "sharing with the world an approach that worked for them".
Do what works for you . And let others do what works for them . It's not a contest . Let people share their experiences .
Sorry that I don't agree with promoting scams. Curing a disease that doesn't exist is doing something that works for you. It's wasting money on things you don't need.
What are you talking about ? Why are you so emotionally invested ?
This thread is about a course that talks about leaky gut syndrome, adrenal fatigue and detoxes amongst other things. The first 2 don't exist and the third is pointless. You came in saying that we shouldn't say anything against it otherwise we are the PC brigade. If I see ridiculous things I will speak out. The reason why I care is I hate seeing vulnerable people being taken advantage of. I have a chronic illness and hear so many crazy things touted as cures (there is no cure for my disease) every day and see people who are so desperate that they spend hundreds on these cures only to find in the best case scenario they don't work and in the worst it makes their symptoms worse.
The op can make her decision . My first comment was towards her . Then you chimed in by respondeding to me . I wish you the best of luck with your health . Different things work for different people . I respect all sides hollistic and modern . I don't have a horse in this race . I don't have a side . I go with what works for me and everyone should go with what works for them .
My problem with your statements is that some ideas/beliefs/teachings don't deserve respect. And certainly don't deserve to be on an even playing field with facts and proven science.
As i said in previous comments . I don't have a horse in this race . Modern medicine is fantastic and hollistic has many benifits for many people . As i said in my orginal comment to the OP - go with what works for her and makes her healthy and happy .
People have been harmed doing what made them "happy" by visiting holistic practitioners.
whatstheharm.net/holisticmedicine.html
And what's that got to do with me ? People make mistakes all the time . Who am i to judge others ?
I don't agree with lots of things people do . If someone wants to stand on one leg in the middle of a field and sing kumbaya , they can have at it . If you really don't like what people do medically , say it to them in person . You might change their mind , you might not .
So at what point does your indifference over what happens to other people or what they do end? If someone tried to kill themselves would you still be like "eh whatever makes them happy."?7 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I guess I specifically meant paying money for sound common sense advice sandwiched in fringe ideas and imaginary illnesses where you go in for advice about post-antibiotic care and come out with advice about post-antibiotic care (that may or may not be valid) plus a host of other unsubstantiated diagnoses and unnecessary treatments and a lighter wallet.
What you're describing is like a psychiatrist who prescribes medications for a certain issue then encourages the patient to include exercise a few times a week as a prophylactic measure when weaning off the medication if no longer needed. Or someone with a mild case of diarrhea making sure to drink enough water to rehydrate. Sound advice that doesn't involve medications but doesn't come attached with all sorts of pseudoscience and a large bill.
If you meant health supporting non-pharmaceutical practices, then I'm with you. There is nothing wrong with those (as long as they're not fully replacing real medical care or introducing/removing substances for which safety is unknown).lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I would distinguish between the idea of a holistic approach (focusing on lifestyle), which I think is great and few would argue with, and what OP is asking about -- so-called "holistic practitioners" who diagnose things like candida overgrowth or adrenal fatigue or leaky gut that medical doctors don't recognize at all, and that supposedly requires "detox" and a special diet and often some very sketchy and expensive supplements.
Note: by special diet here I don't mean a sensible, healthy diet or focusing on how eating particular ways makes you feel.
Thank you both for explaining. You both explained what I was trying to say much better than I did.1 -
French_Peasant wrote: »There’s freedom to be fools but I think society does have the right to call out the humbugs.
Those promoting chelation therapy and naetrile have preyed on desperate people (cancer cures). Is that right?
On the other hand I have seen doctors allow unorthodox (useless) treatments once all conventional treatments have failed. That could fall under the category of “do no harm”.
I recall a faithful lady who went up for healing st my church every Sunday. Her faith was unflagging, unassailable. I asked her about her condition, which left her permanently bent over at the waist.
“Oh, no” she said, “There is surgery for it. I’d rather wait for God’s healing and give Him the glory.”
Where is the glory in permanent impairment?
Tell her "God is upstairs smacking his head and exclaiming, I created the dang surgeon and gave him his intellect and talents to heal you!"
I don't know whether to add the laughing face or the crying face.
A man is has slipped, and is hanging from a cliff, inches from death above the sea below. He begins to pray to god to save him. A moment later, a woman approaches the edge of the cliff and reaches down, calling "grab my hand!!" The man says "No. My faith with save me!" and continues to pray.
A few minutes later, a boat approaches the foot of the cliff and the sailor calls up "Let go! Drop, we have a net out to catch you!" "No" says the man. "My faith will save me" and continues to pray, with growing fervour.
A helipcopter arrives and a rescue team spools a man down on a sturdy cable. The rescuer, right next to the man now, says "Just let me grab a hold of you, we will save you. "NO" yells the man. "My faith WILL save me!!"
A moment later, his grip gives out and he falls to his death.
He arrives in the afterlife and approaches his god. He comes before his god and asks "Why did you forsake me? I had faith in you, every bit of faith and still you allowed me to perish?"
His god looks at him for a moment and says "Dude, I sent you the woman, the boat and the helicopter, what the hell else did you want??"33 -
I think for some people (not all) they turn to holistic medicine when western medicine fails to cure them (some refuse western medicine all together from the beginning). They may have tried the western medicine approach with no success, and out of desperation/lack of alternatives they try the holistic approach.
I'm not one to shun traditional medicine. I do think antibiotics and other medications are over prescribed as a whole, but they are necessary in many cases. If I exhausted the western medicine practices, I can't say I wouldn't try the holistic approach.
I can't say whether the OP is being scammed or not. Only she can really determine that. I don't think I'd pay for those courses when much of that information seems to be readily available online and reading of books (unless of course she is trying to become "certified").
1 -
This is the kind of holistic practice I can get behind.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702459/
It’s allowing traditional practice concurrently with conventional medicine.
To be fair to your doctor, mention all supplements you are taking.3 -
Interestingly when the native bands signed treaty with Canada at the turn of the 19th century, they insisted on a “Medicine Chest” clause.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_6
To me this speaks to the native recognition of the value of western medicine.1 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning. I've been on mfp for several years and I've learned quite a bit on here, but a lot of the information on mfp contradicts the information I'm learning in school. People think everything from a holistic standpoint is "woo" or BS. Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide. It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer in using nutrition and lifestyle as a way to improve health and manage some chronic health conditions. The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
OP, your goal is to get a certification from this school, am I right? That means that after graduation, you plan on advising people according to the principles you learned there. Are you comfortable suggesting people eat certain ways and take certain supplements according to symptoms that may or may not be related to serious undiagnosed medical issues, based on information from an unaccredited institution?11 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »What school are you going to, and where is it located?
I'm studying at the Canadian School of Natural Nutrition. I am aware that this is not the best way to educate myself on Nutrition and I'm very aware of the difference between a dietitian and nutritionist. If I had the option, I definitely would've chosen to go the dietitian way, but I don't have that option right now. What led me to this area of study is the fact that I've always been skeptical of some of the treatment methods followed by western medical doctors.
I grew up with a myriad of health issues that worsened after following a standard american diet and being extremely stressed in my day-to-day life. After going to multiple doctors who prescribed me the same medication each time I went in, I developed horrible side effects and hip/joint pain at the age of 15. I decided to go off all meds, and the hip pain magically disappeared. A few years later, while doing some research, I find that the medication I was taking was linked to reduced absorption of calcium and increased risk of bone fractures. Fast forward 1 year, I did some blood tests and I find out I'm severely deficient in vitamin b12. The doctor who is supposed to care about a patient's health didn't even bother to give me b12 shots so I had to go find someone else to do it for me or take heavy doses of oral b12 myself which gave me unpleasant effects. I did some research once again because it didn't make sense that a teenager who's never been vegan her whole life would be deficient in a nutrient the body doesn't need much of to begin with. Coincidentally I found a link between the medication I was taking and Anemia. This is all anecdotal evidence so obviously there might have been other factors coming into play when I went off the medication such as my poor diet or lack of physical activity.
The fatalities and side effects of various drugs are under-reported. Pharmaceutical companies as well as the food industry pays big money to keep information hidden from the public. The long term effects of certain food, drug, and environmental agents have not been reported YET because we're still in the relatively early stages of exposure. We'll need at least another 20 years to conclude that certain chemicals are indeed carcinogenic or produce autoimmune responses in the body. I'm not saying western medicine is the source of all evils. They've saved millions of people and increased the general life span of the population. I just wish they were more open minded about nutrition's role in health and cared about their patients more rather than giving an antibiotic prescription for every ache and pain or just sending you off with these wonderful words: "If you feel like dying, just go to the hospital." This is literally what one doctor told me instead of giving me advice on how to avoid that situation. I've decided I'm probably better off taking control of my own health.
I know this is continually passed around as fact, but this is patently false. This is conspiratorial woo. You have to be better than this and connect the dots yourself. Who is receiving "big money" to hide this?
I work in pharmacovigilance and the food and drug industries are legally bound to report all adverse events to the respective regulatory authority. As example a family member reports that they no longer need a prescription for a product due to patient death this now gets tracked as a death in the vigilance profile of that product, regardless of whether or not there was a causal relationship.
Most drugs only treat the symptoms and have a low affinity targeted to a specific patient demographic. To truly correct the underlying problem this takes time and dedication from both the patient and treating professional. This is highly limited as the demand vastly outweighs the supply. There will never be sufficient medical care to compensate for absence of personal responsibility.
If I understand this correctly, that would mean that side effects (or at least fatalities, in this case) are - essentially - overreported?
This is precisely our problem now. This massive data flood results in noise, so we end up spending an inordinate amount of time proving that spikes in data are in fact noise.
The pendulum swings too far every cycle.5
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