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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.11 -
Heck, dentists don't routinely use general anesthetic in Canada, either. Which makes me question the dentist under scrutiny right now.
I don't understand the comment about legally forcing the mentally ill to take their medication. Does your country require it or not?
There's such a thing as informed consent. Every person has a right to be fully informed of the consequences of their treatment. If a woo peddler makes outrageous claims, they can be called in to account/sued/decertified.
Hence the popularity of personal accounts and testimonials (woo peddler says "I didn't make these claims; my satisfied customers did.")
Hence the popularity of hair growth and weight loss aids (nobody dies).2 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)
These people would be failing the "and healthy" part of my equation.
Where I live, there is legal basis to force the non-institutionalized mentally ill to take their medication as prescribed. If we're not going to force people of certifiably diminished mental capacity to take medication they don't want to, then we certainly can't force people to undergo other forms of treatment, can we? The only reason those cases are of note is that the parents perpetrated something upon their children.
Self-determination is a basic human right, even when it results in self-harm. Adult people decide to compromise their health each and every day and there's nothing any of us can do about it aside from specific, strict circumstances that certainly don't amount to you disagreeing with their ideas about what constitutes legitimate medical treatment.
I agree. I will be vocal in my opposition to "alternative" treatments that have not been shown to be effective at all that some might go to in place of conventional treatments that do have proof of efficacy. I will not, however, support legislation or laws that would require consenting adults to take a particular treatment over another. If people want to convince themselves in the magical properties of whatever then that is their prerogative. If given the chance I'd try to talk them out of it but it would be inappropriate to apply force.
The fact people die because of this is shameful but I am unwilling to compromise on my principles in terms of freedoms of consenting adults.6 -
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.
Do you know what they call holistic or alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine.
-Tim Minchin15 -
NSFW but sums up my feelings on "holistic" "alternative" "homeopathic" medicine pretty well as well as the reason why at points I can't help but speak out about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk 6 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.17 -
The heck with Big Pharma, I mean they have a cure for everything and suppress it to make a profit. The thousands upon thousands of people employed in the industry sure are really good at keeping the biggest secrets of all time.
I just visit my local shaman or medicine men.
"You want me to put my ear to the ground and listen for hoof beats, check for footprints, look for broken twigs? This is the modern era. That stuff doesn't work anymore." -Kicking Wing Animal Doctor13 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
Really? That is the only reason? Purity, controlled dosage and the like have nothing to do with it?
Let's say you need to dose someone with atropine... well, you got some belladonna growing the the back. Do you know how many chemicals besides atropine are in belladonna? Do you know how potentially dangerous some of them are at the wrong dosage? What about cost? What do you think is cheaper, purely synthesizing a compound in a lab or factory or farming, harvesting, processing and then still having to process and extract the specific compound from the sometimes thousands of others that may be present.12 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.
My objections have had nothing at all to do with kindness. I have not said anything about anyone being mean. I'm suggesting that there are all kinds of options to western medicine, many of which are proven to work as you admit yourself. The anti-woo crowd is doing itself a disservice, in my opinion, by severely limiting their health options and doing others a disservice by trying to prevent alternative medicine from being available as an option.
I don't want to get surgery on my back and I don't want to manage my pain with medications. I'm currently happy and able to do my job as a result of the alternative treatments I receive. My hairdresser was miserable for years but has finally lost some weight and is happier and more energetic than she's been in years with her (totally suspect but somehow effective) blood type diet. Why is this such an affront to the anti-woo crowd? What business is it of yours in the first damn place?
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stevencloser wrote: »
this literally made my teeth cringe, i didn't know they could do that2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Really? That is the only reason? Purity, controlled dosage and the like have nothing to do with it?
Let's say you need to dose someone with atropine... well, you got some belladonna growing the the back. Do you know how many chemicals besides atropine are in belladonna? Do you know how potentially dangerous some of them are at the wrong dosage? What about cost? What do you think is cheaper, purely synthesizing a compound in a lab or factory or farming, harvesting, processing and then still having to process and extract the specific compound from the sometimes thousands of others that may be present.
You say that as if it's not possible to separate or isolate specific components of an extraction. And talk about it like there are no side effects to the synthetic variants lol. Tell you what, name one drug that's not patented, and I will concede my point entirely.
7 -
The active ingredient in Stevia was approved by the FDA long before the whole leaf was. It's a lot easier to work out the side effects of a single ingredient.3
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Also tested and ingested by South American native tribes; tobacco, cocoa, cocaine, ebene, yopo, peyote, morning glory, and ayahuasca. To name a few.
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/hallucinogenic-plants-and-their-use-traditional-societies10 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
FWIW my little brother's seizures have been under control with medical marijuana - the occurrence is down about 95% from his previous treatments (of which there were MANY over the past 23 years). YMMV10 -
Areca nut has been used for thousands of years for stamina and digestion. Thanks to modern medicine we now know it's a known carcinogen.9 -
Also tested and ingested by South American native tribes; tobacco, cocoa, cocaine, ebene, yopo, peyote, morning glory, and ayahuasca. To name a few.
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/hallucinogenic-plants-and-their-use-traditional-societies
You don't ingest Morning Glory, you soak in a warm tub full of it. Totally not worth it btw.
Edit: apparently ingestion can include absorbtion, but is usually applied to single cell organisms.0 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.
My objections have had nothing at all to do with kindness. I have not said anything about anyone being mean. I'm suggesting that there are all kinds of options to western medicine, many of which are proven to work as you admit yourself. The anti-woo crowd is doing itself a disservice, in my opinion, by severely limiting their health options and doing others a disservice by trying to prevent alternative medicine from being available as an option.
I don't want to get surgery on my back and I don't want to manage my pain with medications. I'm currently happy and able to do my job as a result of the alternative treatments I receive. My hairdresser was miserable for years but has finally lost some weight and is happier and more energetic than she's been in years with her (totally suspect but somehow effective) blood type diet. Why is this such an affront to the anti-woo crowd? What business is it of yours in the first damn place?
See, this is what I was talking about earlier - anecdotal evidence vs controlled studies. I'd buy it if someone could show me a legitimate blind study where people with identical symptoms were divided into random groups and given diets either conforming to their blood type or not. If the results showed verifiable improvement in the symptoms of those who ate the diet consistent with their blood type, and little or no improvement in the other group I'd be completely convinced, and would be advising others to give it a try.
eta: And something that always puzzles me. How do people who believe blood type diets are valid reconcile that with body type diets, which may dictate a completely different way of eating for the same person. The same kind of rationale backs both diets - how do you pick one over the other?10 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
FWIW my little brother's seizures have been under control with medical marijuana - the occurrence is down about 95% from his previous treatments (of which there were MANY over the past 23 years). YMMV
I think marijuana is one of the rare situations where it was actively prevented from being used medicinally and legally (and is still completely illegal in the UK). Even now it's not being prescribed in the "traditional" way which is frustrating as hell due to the number of things it could potentially be used for. I'm sure someone knows why and I'm naturally inclined to think it's because it was one of the first drugs to be demonised and part of the "war on drugs". Same for hallucinogens that could have some interesting applications but because fo their leak and use recreationally back when it was developed there's a big nope on it too (though isn't there some research now being done? Did I make that up?).
And then again I could be making up conspiracy theories, I'm open to that too. But I think the above examples are not the norm on the whole when people try to say effective treatments are withheld from us because x.y.z.2
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