How long between reps before it's not a "set" anymore?

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  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    do more power cleans
    For an encore can you give chin-up advice?
  • jrutledge01
    jrutledge01 Posts: 213 Member
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    do more power cleans
    For an encore can you give chin-up advice?

    keep your chin up, you'll get your squats right someday
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    keep your chin up, you'll get your squats right someday
    ROFL. Well played.
    Rest-Pause is a valid method of forced reps IMO. So if you can't get another full rep, pause for a few seconds while still holding the weight and go for one or two more.
    This is more like what I'm talking about. It probably depends on the individual and the exercise, but there are at least some exercises where you can't do "your max reps" (depending on how you define that) all at exactly the same rhythm. You might either:
    A- only count as many as you can do at "regular" speed,
    2- slow down all of your reps even at the beginning so that you can get the last ones in at the same pace as the first,
    D- do your beginning reps faster and when you hit "a wall" slow down (or pause) long enough to get in another rep (or two, etc)

    For example if you can do 4 benches at the same pace, and then a 5th one after a few seconds (but not in synch with the first 4) do you prefer to do a "set of 5" that way or do you file that weight in your 4-rep range?

    (Please note the difference between "do you prefer" (for yourself) and "should I" and realize that I am not asking "should I?":laugh: )
  • MyChocolateDiet
    MyChocolateDiet Posts: 22,281 Member
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    OMFG.

    I thought I had a nice plan to start lifting my little dumbells in moves I remember and have been finding on youtube and just focus on my form and going slow on the up and the down.

    NOW thanks to this insane thread I'm gonna be all ridiculous the whole time wondering if I'm breathing right or should be breathing at all or holding for what?....45 seconds! Huh?

    In regular workoutland all the workouts I ever did you exhale on the exertion. Is that not the same when pushing or pulling a weight? Am I missing something?
  • grantdumas7
    grantdumas7 Posts: 802 Member
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    Rest-Pause is a valid method of forced reps IMO. So if you can't get another full rep, pause for a few seconds while still holding the weight and go for one or two more.

    Drop sets are another forced rep method, so that's gotta be a couple of seconds to switch weight.

    Any more than about 10 seconds an you're just resting I reckon, but of course it depends what you're doing - 20 reps of squats and you may need a bit of a pause at 10 to steady yourself on your feet!
    Rest Pause and Drop sets aren't Forced Reps. Forced reps is when someone helps you with your rep. Rest-Pause you stop the set and take tension off the muscle for 5-15 sec before attempting another rep.
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    OMFG.

    I thought I had a nice plan to start lifting my little dumbells in moves I remember and have been finding on youtube and just focus on my form and going slow on the up and the down.

    NOW thanks to this insane thread I'm gonna be all ridiculous the whole time wondering if I'm breathing right or should be breathing at all or holding for what?....45 seconds! Huh?
    LMAO. Yeah it's pretty much the stereotype of a forum thread gone wrong. Someone tries to provide an example, people take it hyper-literally and it goes all pear-shaped. Don't worry though, no matter which lifts and how much weight you do you will have at least several self-appointed experts simultaneously telling you it's too much and too little, the wrong lift, that your form is wrong, you're going to injure yourself, and you're lying about how much you did.
    In regular workoutland all the workouts I ever did you exhale on the exertion. Is that not the same when pushing or pulling a weight? Am I missing something?
    There's a whole spectrum which includes breathing normally, exhaling on exertion, blocking it somewhat (which may or may not result in grunting or yelling depending on how you block it) or totally holding it, and everything between, depending on quite a few factors. As a wise man once said, "jux do wat werkz 4 u."
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    Just try it both ways and see which way you like it better.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    It seemed like such a simple question....
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    It seemed like such a simple question....
    Apparently I've blundered across the next "what do you count as water." Needs improvement though: no mention of the microwave aka deathbox, and it could have gone at least 18-25 pages if it had been hijacked by a coach.
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    BTW on the topic of squats since there are people having trouble understanding this, let's look at the Starting Strength example that everyone likes to use as how to squat.

    squatformSS_zpse4fd866b.png

    The problem with using this as a universal example is that it falsely assumes all humans have exactly the same proportions. (To be clear, Starting Strength does not assume, and he specifies that you will need to adjust for your own body's individual variations.) Compared to the diagram, my femurs are long as hell, and my torso is short, as you can see in this picture.

    squatform_zps6a2e313d.png

    The effect is it puts the heavier end of my torso further away from my center of mass, which produces lots of leverage trying to make me tip over backwards. My torso isn't as long either, notice my head is not sticking out anywhere near as far as the diagram's head. So unless my torso grows longer or my skull gets hyooge, I cannot put my head out far enough to counterbalance my rear end. The only reasonable way to do this is to put the barbell itself forward of my feet. I can't even squat flat-footed without a barbell because I just tip backwards.

    Also please notice that my forearms are way longer than the diagram too. If this dude extended his fingers all the way they still wouldn't even reach my wrist. This limits where I can choose to put the bar, in this pic is as low as it can go. Because I'm sure people are going to start trying to give me advice about putting the bar lower. (And the other half will be telling me to put it higher, LOL.)

    This is an example for entertainment purposes only, since I never ever squat with only 70 lbs. I can't even go any lower in this pic because there's not enough counterbalance with only 70 lbs. But anyone of reasonable intelligence can get the point of what's being illustrated here. So, adjust your squats for your body's metrics and enjoy.
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    Now now calm down, there's no need to get hysterical. Like I said it's only 70 lbs and for entertainment purposes only. I used 70 because it exaggerates the offset and makes it more visible.

    Anyone with a basic knowledge of levers knows that it's a function of force applied times distance. Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.

    Which is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.
  • phjorg1
    phjorg1 Posts: 642 Member
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    Now now calm down, there's no need to get hysterical. Like I said it's only 70 lbs and for entertainment purposes only. I used 70 because it exaggerates the offset and makes it more visible.

    Anyone with a basic knowledge of levers knows that it's a function of force applied times distance. Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.

    Which is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.
    My old post was deleted. But point still stands, you have no clue what you're talking about. there is ZERO circumstance EVER where the barbell weight should be anywhere but over your foot. And there is not a single person on Earth with knowedge of squats who disagrees. you're more than welcome to try and find someone who agrees with you to prove otherwise, but they do not exist.
  • jrutledge01
    jrutledge01 Posts: 213 Member
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    OP try spreading your feet out a little more and spread your knees out as you go down (imagine there is a rope pulling your knees out to the side) and maybe point your toes wider a little - hard to see from this angle

    the whole time you are doing this, keep that straight vertical drop to your toes in mind. the center of gravity is the bar - bend your legs and at the hip appropriately to accommodate

    also, hard to be sure with this angle of picture, but it looks like you have the bar on your shoulders which is bad.. look up low bar squat form.

    edit - and remember to go slow.. squat isn't an explosion lift
  • tross0924
    tross0924 Posts: 909 Member
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    Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.

    So how far does your head have to be forward if you use zero weight? O.o

    Which is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.

    The weight on the bar (or lack there of) shouldn't significantly change your form.
    In the picture of you squatting, the bar should be farther back and your torso more upright. Move your knees slightly forward to bring your butt in and keep your balance. I'm not saying it has to be directly over the center of your foot, but it should be a LOT closer than what it is. When the bar is farther forward than your knees, as in the picture, you're putting way to much stress on your back. And by way to much stress, I mean you WILL eventually hurt yourself this way.

    And I (and a lot of people that have posted on the derailed part of the topic) realize this isn't the original question, just bear in mind that we're actually trying to help. Some in nicer ways than others.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Just to add to the above, it looks as though you are doing an exaggerated low bar but with a high-bar bar position. See here:

    155ryx1.png

    With a high bar, you need to be a lot more upright (and more upright with a low bar too - the load should not impact the positioning).
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.

    So how far does your head have to be forward if you use zero weight? O.o
    [/quote]
    LOL. That's what I was saying, I literally cannot squat without a barbell. I need to hold some weight in my hands and put my arms as far forward as possible, and/or spread my legs way out (well into the discomfort zone) in a ridiculous sumo stance. (Or I just go up on the balls of my feet, but my knees don't like that.)
    The weight on the bar (or lack there of) shouldn't significantly change your form.
    The difference is only visible at "beginner" weights, see pics below. I agree there would be no visible difference between 250 and 350. Note that it was in a specific context: I was talking to someone who said they were just starting with squats, so I assumed they would be starting with something small like 45 lbs the way people typically do. I can't be the only human being who needs to compensate for a less than usual set of proportions. If I had really believed that I was going to injure myself squatting any way other than precisely what is described in some of these stricter definitions, I never would have progressed to weights where I can squat with reasonable form.

    In the picture of you squatting, the bar should be farther back and your torso more upright. Move your knees slightly forward to bring your butt in and keep your balance. I'm not saying it has to be directly over the center of your foot, but it should be a LOT closer than what it is. When the bar is farther forward than your knees, as in the picture, you're putting way to much stress on your back. And by way to much stress, I mean you WILL eventually hurt yourself this way.
    Yes, I adjusted my knee position long ago, they are as far forward as they can go without pain. (If I put them more forward it painfully stresses the crap out of the patellar tendon.) I've tried many many variations/adjustments to find what does and doesn't work for me.

    70 lbs
    squatform70_zps9b3a6ef6.png

    210 lbs
    squatform210_zpsf2f417db.png

    Comparison:
    squat70-210_zps2dd0d833.gif
    And I (and a lot of people that have posted on the derailed part of the topic) realize this isn't the original question, just bear in mind that we're actually trying to help. Some in nicer ways than others.
    Yep, I understand, but much of it ignores the bigger picture and is just mindlessly spouting absolutist dogma with zero regard for subtlety or context.
    Just to add to the above, it looks as though you are doing an exaggerated low bar but with a high-bar bar position. See here:
    Thanks Sara. I posted a form check (using more reasonable weights, IIRC 1XBW) in ETP a while back and nobody said anything bad about my form then. People are just extrapolating this 70 lb example to much higher weights.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    I am kind of mesmerized by that gif. The overlay one was fancy dancy as well.
  • LiftAllThePizzas
    LiftAllThePizzas Posts: 17,857 Member
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    I am kind of mesmerized by that gif. The overlay one was fancy dancy as well.
    I'm half expecting a set of, "you're squatting outside the rack, you must do that every time, and it's going to bring about the end of the universe" posts.
  • janetdungan
    janetdungan Posts: 14 Member
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    30-60 seconds, no wait is called superset
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    squat70-210_zps2dd0d833.gif

    This is awesome.

    From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.

    It also looks like you squat with no shoes on. That's how I do it as well. I don't have lifting shoes and my running shoes tilt me forward and make it difficult to keep my balance with the bar over my feet.

    Great post.

    Tom

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