Good news for people who like eating fat!
Replies
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GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I never said I was converting fat to muscle - I said I'm building muscle and reducing fat. That statement was made in another post.
While in a calorie deficit?
If you consider a 177lb female, who exercises ~4 times per week (not a body builder) and eats ~1400 calories per day (keto breakdown) a deficit. Just because I don't eat a ton of calories doesn't mean I'm not building muscle - where the heck does that even make sense? I'm not bulking up - but I am working muscles I have not really used in a while - and I can physically feel them toning showing. (not just from an "exposure" from the fat - I still have PLENTY of fat.)
You need an energy surplus in order to build muscle. If you are in a caloric deficit, you are then not in a surplus. So, you cannot be doing so. It's like trying to drive a car forward and in reverse at the same time.
I listed above:
"In order to add additional LBM, you would need to be a caloric surplus (outside of those who are entirely new to training or extremely obese - even in that case, the amount added would not be entirely noticeable)."
For sake of clarity, you are reducing body fat. Reduction in body fat makes it so muscle will show much more easily, and appear more shapely.
I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest and clarifying misinformation.
LolBroScience you may be honest in the sense that you think you are typing correct facts even when science states you are wrong. Volfan22 gave you an example and you want it to go way with black magic but she is not the only one who builds muscle while loosing body fat. Many of us can go months without the scales dropping because we are consuming some of our own body fat as well as what we eat.
scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
Gale Hawkins. Do you even lift?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I never said I was converting fat to muscle - I said I'm building muscle and reducing fat. That statement was made in another post.
While in a calorie deficit?
If you consider a 177lb female, who exercises ~4 times per week (not a body builder) and eats ~1400 calories per day (keto breakdown) a deficit. Just because I don't eat a ton of calories doesn't mean I'm not building muscle - where the heck does that even make sense? I'm not bulking up - but I am working muscles I have not really used in a while - and I can physically feel them toning showing. (not just from an "exposure" from the fat - I still have PLENTY of fat.)
You need an energy surplus in order to build muscle. If you are in a caloric deficit, you are then not in a surplus. So, you cannot be doing so. It's like trying to drive a car forward and in reverse at the same time.
I listed above:
"In order to add additional LBM, you would need to be a caloric surplus (outside of those who are entirely new to training or extremely obese - even in that case, the amount added would not be entirely noticeable)."
For sake of clarity, you are reducing body fat. Reduction in body fat makes it so muscle will show much more easily, and appear more shapely.
I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest and clarifying misinformation.
LolBroScience you may be honest in the sense that you think you are typing correct facts even when science states you are wrong. Volfan22 gave you an example and you want it to go way with black magic but she is not the only one who builds muscle while loosing body fat. Many of us can go months without the scales dropping because we are consuming some of our own body fat as well as what we eat.
scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
there you go again ...spouting information that defies the laws of physics...
You need surplus energy to build muscle...you can not build something out of nothing...
If you want to lose body fat/weight, then you need to be in an energy deficit.
The processes of building muscle and losing body fat are diametrically opposed to one another. That is like saying you can build a house and tear it down at the same time...
The only "black magic" in this thread is your claim that you can build muscle in a deficit..
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LolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I never said I was converting fat to muscle - I said I'm building muscle and reducing fat. That statement was made in another post.
While in a calorie deficit?
If you consider a 177lb female, who exercises ~4 times per week (not a body builder) and eats ~1400 calories per day (keto breakdown) a deficit. Just because I don't eat a ton of calories doesn't mean I'm not building muscle - where the heck does that even make sense? I'm not bulking up - but I am working muscles I have not really used in a while - and I can physically feel them toning showing. (not just from an "exposure" from the fat - I still have PLENTY of fat.)
You need an energy surplus in order to build muscle. If you are in a caloric deficit, you are then not in a surplus. So, you cannot be doing so. It's like trying to drive a car forward and in reverse at the same time.
I listed above:
"In order to add additional LBM, you would need to be a caloric surplus (outside of those who are entirely new to training or extremely obese - even in that case, the amount added would not be entirely noticeable)."
For sake of clarity, you are reducing body fat. Reduction in body fat makes it so muscle will show much more easily, and appear more shapely.
I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest and clarifying misinformation.
LolBroScience you may be honest in the sense that you think you are typing correct facts even when science states you are wrong. Volfan22 gave you an example and you want it to go way with black magic but she is not the only one who builds muscle while loosing body fat. Many of us can go months without the scales dropping because we are consuming some of our own body fat as well as what we eat.
scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
Gale Hawkins. Do you even lift?
Of course I do because I am alive and mobile. LolBroScience you need to get into the science of weight loss/gain. Building muscle and loosing fat at the same time is not rocket science. Dieting correctly requires the use of one's brain before the use of one's muscles. Read up and let Volfan22 know your post was not fully factual.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I never said I was converting fat to muscle - I said I'm building muscle and reducing fat. That statement was made in another post.
While in a calorie deficit?
If you consider a 177lb female, who exercises ~4 times per week (not a body builder) and eats ~1400 calories per day (keto breakdown) a deficit. Just because I don't eat a ton of calories doesn't mean I'm not building muscle - where the heck does that even make sense? I'm not bulking up - but I am working muscles I have not really used in a while - and I can physically feel them toning showing. (not just from an "exposure" from the fat - I still have PLENTY of fat.)
You need an energy surplus in order to build muscle. If you are in a caloric deficit, you are then not in a surplus. So, you cannot be doing so. It's like trying to drive a car forward and in reverse at the same time.
I listed above:
"In order to add additional LBM, you would need to be a caloric surplus (outside of those who are entirely new to training or extremely obese - even in that case, the amount added would not be entirely noticeable)."
For sake of clarity, you are reducing body fat. Reduction in body fat makes it so muscle will show much more easily, and appear more shapely.
I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest and clarifying misinformation.
LolBroScience you may be honest in the sense that you think you are typing correct facts even when science states you are wrong. Volfan22 gave you an example and you want it to go way with black magic but she is not the only one who builds muscle while loosing body fat. Many of us can go months without the scales dropping because we are consuming some of our own body fat as well as what we eat.
scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
Gale Hawkins. Do you even lift?
Of course I do because I am alive and mobile. LolBroScience you need to get into the science of weight loss/gain. Building muscle and loosing fat at the same time is not rocket science. Dieting correctly requires the use of one's brain before the use of one's muscles. Read up and let Volfan22 know your post was not fully factual.
Interesting.0 -
Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.0
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GaleHawkins wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I never said I was converting fat to muscle - I said I'm building muscle and reducing fat. That statement was made in another post.
While in a calorie deficit?
If you consider a 177lb female, who exercises ~4 times per week (not a body builder) and eats ~1400 calories per day (keto breakdown) a deficit. Just because I don't eat a ton of calories doesn't mean I'm not building muscle - where the heck does that even make sense? I'm not bulking up - but I am working muscles I have not really used in a while - and I can physically feel them toning showing. (not just from an "exposure" from the fat - I still have PLENTY of fat.)
You need an energy surplus in order to build muscle. If you are in a caloric deficit, you are then not in a surplus. So, you cannot be doing so. It's like trying to drive a car forward and in reverse at the same time.
I listed above:
"In order to add additional LBM, you would need to be a caloric surplus (outside of those who are entirely new to training or extremely obese - even in that case, the amount added would not be entirely noticeable)."
For sake of clarity, you are reducing body fat. Reduction in body fat makes it so muscle will show much more easily, and appear more shapely.
I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest and clarifying misinformation.
LolBroScience you may be honest in the sense that you think you are typing correct facts even when science states you are wrong. Volfan22 gave you an example and you want it to go way with black magic but she is not the only one who builds muscle while loosing body fat. Many of us can go months without the scales dropping because we are consuming some of our own body fat as well as what we eat.
scoobysworkshop.com/gain-muscle-lose-fat/
Right - that's what I believe to be true also. My weight is creeping down (so slow - like 3-4 lbs per month) - but I'm getting stronger (which is from conditioning, I can agree with that.) I have read that some keto eaters "carb load" on weekends but I'm not a body builder so I don't participate in that.
Why wouldn't (instead of calories - because calories equate to energy) ketones produce enough energy (especially if you have a lot of fat - and I do) from the fat source to allow for muscle growth? I would think you'd have to be in high levels of ketosis - which I am (ketostix show purple daily) for this to be true. (I think I have some research to do!)
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LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale!
But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
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That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
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Yes, I was referring to Gale who cannot ever provide any sort of ACTUAL scientific data backing up claims.0
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And yes, great transformation.0
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Nvm.0
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You still need to be in a caloric surplus.
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Same applies here0 -
FTA
"Eating a calorie surplus – You can’t build muscle without eating more calories than you need, and these come from fats in a ketogenic diet."0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
LOL - yes I started Ketogenics June 9th. I know I'm losing body fat - it was the muscle part that I guess I assumed was building too - heck I can flex a bicep now!
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Fabulous.Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
LOL - yes I started Ketogenics June 9th. I know I'm losing body fat - it was the muscle part that I guess I assumed was building too - heck I can flex a bicep now!
0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.
Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends! 0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.
Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends!
If it were me, given your age (and mine), consider hormonal changes before beginning a bulk. Not saying don't, just saying do your research. *Unless you're done with all that hormonal stuff. cheers0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Yes, I was referring to Gale who cannot ever provide any sort of ACTUAL scientific data backing up claims.
LolBro I am still watching for you to support your wild claims with Science and the use of of some logic instead of photos of your body.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.
Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends!
If it were me, given your age (and mine), consider hormonal changes before beginning a bulk. Not saying don't, just saying do your research. *Unless you're done with all that hormonal stuff.
And there is that! I have no thyroid - so I don't know yet how all this will play out. Mine was removed in January (which packed on the weight). Thanks for the heads up. I'm already feeling the "heat" - UGH!0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.
Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends!
If it were me, given your age (and mine), consider hormonal changes before beginning a bulk. Not saying don't, just saying do your research. *Unless you're done with all that hormonal stuff.
And there is that! I have no thyroid - so I don't know yet how all this will play out. Mine was removed in January (which packed on the weight). Thanks for the heads up. I'm already feeling the "heat" - UGH!
Oooh, no thyroid, no fun! But it makes this all the more impressive.
ps: ugh, the heat! if only it burned more calories!0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
LOL - yes I started Ketogenics June 9th. I know I'm losing body fat - it was the muscle part that I guess I assumed was building too - heck I can flex a bicep now!
When you were heavier you likely had quite a bit of muscle under the fat. It takes muscle to carry extra weight around.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
^Definitely that.
[to Volfan]
But as for the other questions about building muscle mass, it's usually referred to as bulking. To make sufficient muscle gains you eat at a relatively small surplus (I think an experience bulker said 200 calories a day is a good number in another thread) to limit putting on a lot of fat, but you will always add fat during a bulk; and because of that most people cycle between bulk and cuts.
And many people don't recommend bulks until people are pretty lean (for women around 20% body fat), but when to bulk is a lot of personal preference.
All that said, you are looking fantastic and likely don't need to worry about bulking. Keep working with the trainer and lifting weights to preserve the muscle mass you have and eating at a deficit to lose the fat that's covering all those muscles up. Being stronger is great and super useful in everyday life.
Thank you - that's great information! I'll hold off for now - I'm still about 30-35% bg - I have about 35 more lbs to lose before I make any changes. I do know this - I will not go back to eating sugar/wheat. Stevia and Almond flour are my new best friends!
If it were me, given your age (and mine), consider hormonal changes before beginning a bulk. Not saying don't, just saying do your research. *Unless you're done with all that hormonal stuff.
And there is that! I have no thyroid - so I don't know yet how all this will play out. Mine was removed in January (which packed on the weight). Thanks for the heads up. I'm already feeling the "heat" - UGH!
Oooh, no thyroid, no fun! But it makes this all the more impressive.
ps: ugh, the heat! if only it burned more calories!
AMEN SISTA!0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
I agree with Sabine. Since I am months behind you in my starting date I do hope to continue to build muscles as I loose weight in a state Nutritional Ketosis. Because of having active Ankylosing Spondylitis for over 40 years that fused most of my spine and left me bent over and twisted I will never look as good as I already feel but that is OK.
My work on dieting is for my 17 year old kids if they too develop AS as they get older so they will know if they will change their diet they may not have to become physically deformed as I am today at 63.
Keep up the good work. You are an encouragement to others of us that are newer to the very low carb way of life.
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baconslave wrote: »Nvm.
Hey, you can't talk to those guys like that.
I mean........do you even lift?
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
That's in a few months? Jesus.LolBroScience wrote: »Could you please provide some pictures and data regarding your transformation? I would like to see how much quality lbm you have added while in a caloric deficit at age 63.
I'm not 63 - so I assume you were talking to Gale! But - this is what I am seeing - Far left was take June 7th. Top right was August and the bottom right was September.
Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
I agree with Sabine. Since I am months behind you in my starting date I do hope to continue to build muscles as I loose weight in a state Nutritional Ketosis. Because of having active Ankylosing Spondylitis for over 40 years that fused most of my spine and left me bent over and twisted I will never look as good as I already feel but that is OK.
My work on dieting is for my 17 year old kids if they too develop AS as they get older so they will know if they will change their diet they may not have to become physically deformed as I am today at 63.
Keep up the good work. You are an encouragement to others of us that are newer to the very low carb way of life.
I have seen so many peoples lives improve by removing wheat, starches and sugar. Not just in losing fat weight - but in how they feel and look (skin clears up) - they don't have to carry tums everywhere because heartburn is GONE, diabetics are stable and their numbers are better than they have ever been. I even have my dad starting it because he was diagnosed with melanoma in 2 spots and I have read about the benefits of ketones and cancer. No results for him yet - but I have faith for sure!
Be blessed and have a wonderful Thanksgiving! (Avoid the potatoes unless they are made from cauliflower!)
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willnorton wrote: »fat freefrolicking.... where did you get your medical degree???? my Doctor said to me "you are non-diabetic".... Im going to take those words and run with them... I have had diabetes since 2005 and you say "remission" sounds like cancer to me.... i understand what you are saying and I am controlling my diabetes with diet and exercise but its cool to say I am non-diabetic...and if my doctor says those words....dang it...I am going to use them too.... if you have never dealt with this terrible disease, you wouldnt understand.... I AM ABSOLUTELY NON-DIABETIC DANG IT.... have a great Thanksgiving....
No medical degree yet. I do have an education in nursing and public health though.
When your doctor said "non-diabetic", I'm 99% sure he was referring to the fact that your A1c percentage and fasting blood glucose levels have been in the normal range for a year or longer.
All of the diabetic patients I've treated who come in for blood work and have had normal A1c's and fasting glucose levels for a year or more, were told their diabetes is in remission. There are two kinds of diabetic remission: complete and prolonged. Complete remission means a patient has had normal A1c's and and fasting blood glucose levels for over 1 year without diabetes medicine. Prolonged remission means a patient has had normal A1c's and fasting blood glucose levels for over 5 years without diabetes medicine. Diabetes CANNOT be cured. Once you are a diabetic, you are a diabetic for life.0
This discussion has been closed.
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