Sweets when bulking?
Replies
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In the high carb/low fat vs. low carb/high fat debate here is a study that is worth a read that supports high carb for the purpose of bulking:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20489032.
I agree that you should do what works best individually and if high fat gets you to your goals, then have at it. But carbs are the preferential energy source of the body and are very, very rarely converted to fat through de nova lipogenesis (at least in humans).0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »This is not relevant for someone who is tracking their caloric intake.
It may be relevant for someone who has lost a ton of weight, does not track their calories, and has not readjusted to their new maintenance calories. Holding calories constant and adjusting to a new TDEE, it won't make a difference if you are consistent with intake.
You are missing the point. Your general diet (macros ratio) does have an effect on your TDEE. Not all of us are lucky enough to have doctors and scientist to calculate an accurate TDEE. We use calculators as a guideline. Calculators that don't take your macro ratio into account. And for short statured people like myself, even a 5% decrease in TDEE or a 5 lb fat gain or 5 lb muscle gain is a bigger issue than those who are taller with much more wiggle room.
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DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »This is not relevant for someone who is tracking their caloric intake.
It may be relevant for someone who has lost a ton of weight, does not track their calories, and has not readjusted to their new maintenance calories. Holding calories constant and adjusting to a new TDEE, it won't make a difference if you are consistent with intake.
You are missing the point. Your general diet (macros ratio) does have an effect on your TDEE. Not all of us are lucky enough to have doctors and scientist to calculate an accurate TDEE. We use calculators as a guideline. Calculators that don't take your macro ratio into account. And for short statured people like myself, even a 5% decrease in TDEE or a 5 lb fat gain or 5 lb muscle gain is a bigger issue than those who are taller with much more wiggle room.
You use a calculator as a baseline and should be making adjustments beyond that. Honestly, it's not rocket science. You aren't going to accidentally get fat if you are diligently tracking your intake and consistently meeting your macronutrient goals as you should be making adjustments along the way. TEF is already built into the TDEE equation.0 -
In the high carb/low fat vs. low carb/high fat debate here is a study that is worth a read that supports high carb for the purpose of bulking:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20489032.
I agree that you should do what works best individually and if high fat gets you to your goals, then have at it. But carbs are the preferential energy source of the body and are very, very rarely converted to fat through de nova lipogenesis (at least in humans).
I'm not anti carb. I'm pro complex carb. Sweets are not complex carbs.
Speaking anecdotally, if I switch my whole grain bread to cookies, keeping calories constant, my lifts suffer. When I'm cutting, keeping all activity the same (running on a treadmill at the same speed for the same distance) and calories the same, if I were to switch my whole grain toast to a cookie, I lose less fat. (I still lose weight, just not as much). I can't control for lifts while in a calorie deficit since my lifts always suffer while cutting. But they seem to suffer MORE when I choose sweets over toast. I understand that correlation is not causation and there may be other factors that indeed may be all in my head, but I doubt it.
Simply stated... I get better results from bulking and cutting when I get my calories from mainly complex carbs over simple carbs. Take from that what you will.
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As I said, definitely do what is best for yourself. No argument there. My point is, carbs from whatever source whether from sugar or from whole grains are not 'normally' converted to fat or de nova lipogenesis. That is a well proven scientific study. I also agree that there are other factors at play. The thing that so many people keep complicating is that surplus calories (beyond what are utilized for muscle storage) are what cause fat, NOTHING ELSE. And the ratio of storage of surplus (muscle to fat ratio) is known as the P-ratio and it is pretty much fully genetic and cannot be manipulated by altering your macros. Really this can only be manipulated by drugs, but I am a natural.
Again, if you have done this long enough and know what works for you for whatever reasons, then that is what you should do. I look at the bodybuilding journey as a huge personal experiment. I just personally attempt to control as many variables as I can based upon sound input from actual science. If someone has a better way, I am open to it as long as they can prove they have a better way.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »This is not relevant for someone who is tracking their caloric intake.
It may be relevant for someone who has lost a ton of weight, does not track their calories, and has not readjusted to their new maintenance calories. Holding calories constant and adjusting to a new TDEE, it won't make a difference if you are consistent with intake.
You are missing the point. Your general diet (macros ratio) does have an effect on your TDEE. Not all of us are lucky enough to have doctors and scientist to calculate an accurate TDEE. We use calculators as a guideline. Calculators that don't take your macro ratio into account. And for short statured people like myself, even a 5% decrease in TDEE or a 5 lb fat gain or 5 lb muscle gain is a bigger issue than those who are taller with much more wiggle room.
You use a calculator as a baseline and should be making adjustments beyond that. Honestly, it's not rocket science. You aren't going to accidentally get fat if you are diligently tracking your intake and consistently meeting your macronutrient goals as you should be making adjustments along the way. TEF is already built into the TDEE equation.
We are getting down in the weeds here and starting to argue two different points. I never said you couldn't bulk on sweets, and yes obviously you need to adjust according to results. I said for me personally, I see better results without a constant calorie source from sweets, not that I couldn't successfully bulk on sweets. The original question and debate was that all calories react the same in the body, regardless of source. And I stated that is not necessarily true. The source of your calories can and does affect the body and metabolic processes differently. However slight. And it may affect some more than others, and may be of greater concern for some more than others.
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Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.0
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LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
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DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Whatever floats your boat (seems more mental than anything though)... As stated earlier, you cannot alter your p-ratio. Genetics determines fat and muscle gain, not macros. You may THINK you are close to a 1:1 ratio, but unless you've done a dscan over points in your bulk, you have no way of knowing.
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dieselbyte wrote: »DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Whatever floats your boat (seems more mental than anything though)... As stated earlier, you cannot alter your p-ratio. Genetics determines fat and muscle gain, not macros. You may THINK you are close to a 1:1 ratio, but unless you've done a dscan over points in your bulk, you have no way of knowing.
This. And additionally...
This has to do with particular nutrient timing and the effects thereafter for YOU. What happened if you finished your workout early in the morning (consuming only your complex carbs pre, intra, post or however you feel like it) and then you ate sweets at night? Your workout would not be impacted, and thus no change to your TDEE by your logic. What happens then?
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While we're on the subject of P-ratios, I have heard from other sources that how lean you are also matters in addition to genetics. Meaning, people who have lower body fat will have a better ratio. Is that also true?0
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ForecasterJason wrote: »While we're on the subject of P-ratios, I have heard from other sources that how lean you are also matters in addition to genetics. Meaning, people who have lower body fat will have a better ratio. Is that also true?
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Whatever floats your boat (seems more mental than anything though)... As stated earlier, you cannot alter your p-ratio. Genetics determines fat and muscle gain, not macros. You may THINK you are close to a 1:1 ratio, but unless you've done a dscan over points in your bulk, you have no way of knowing.
You forgot to mention that Your P ratio isn't 100% genetic. 15-20% of your p ratio is determined by how you eat, how you train etc.
If macros had nothing to do with your p ratio, then theoretically none of would be worried about our protein intake and could just bulk on carbs.
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Thanks.LolBroScience wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »While we're on the subject of P-ratios, I have heard from other sources that how lean you are also matters in addition to genetics. Meaning, people who have lower body fat will have a better ratio. Is that also true?
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
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DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Maybe I'm not thinking this through at a higher level but are complex carbs really going to give us more energy while training?
Let's say we're comparing single source of food. We take a serving of whole grain bread and a serving of white bread, are we taking into consideration the necessary insulin spikes required for growth?
You're claiming you'd have more energy for daily activities and therefore a higher TDEE, what are we talking about in difference? 25, 50 calories?
Maybe you already did but can you explain this 1 to 1 ratio?
I'm multi tasking so my thoughts are jumbled, if you can follow great, if not let me know and I will rephrase.
I followed. Gotta run soon but will try to answer all.
Yes, it's a slight difference in tdee, as I said. My very first post is that most aren't at a level where the difference would be of concern.
1 to 1 ratio. If I start my bulk at 17% bodyfat, gain 10 lbs on my bulk, I only need to cut back down 5 lbs to get back to 17% bodyfat.
Complex carbs provides more steady and sustained energy than simple carbs do. Proven fact.
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Hmm snickers as a pre workout. I just typed that into mfp and got it's nutrition and you know what ... It's a totally ideal pre workout snack. I am completely going to steal that idea and eat the hell out of a snickers bar before i lift next time. Thanks.0
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DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Don't want to get into a huge debate about what works for you, coz, well, it works for you - but doesn't the context of the energy requirement matter? I don't want a slow acting carb when I am about to lift necessarily - I want a fast acting one. I get the concept of sustained energy - but it does not 'do it for me'. It also depends on your reaction to blood sugar variability. I actually get sluggish with slow acting carbs more than with fast acting ones from what I can tell (although I don't really pay it much attention to be honest).
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DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Don't want to get into a huge debate about what works for you, coz, well, it works for you - but doesn't the context of the energy requirement matter? I don't want a slow acting carb when I am about to lift necessarily - I want a fast acting one. I get the concept of sustained energy - but it does not 'do it for me'. It also depends on your reaction to blood sugar variability. I actually get sluggish with slow acting carbs more than with fast acting ones from what I can tell (although I don't really pay it much attention to be honest).
I agree 100%.
Also, Try cramming a ton of complex carbs down when your cals are near 4,000 Djinn. Not only does it get difficult to reach that eating number eating nutrient dense foods, but I'd rather go squat with two poptarts in my system as opposed to 800g of sweet potatoes or something.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Don't want to get into a huge debate about what works for you, coz, well, it works for you - but doesn't the context of the energy requirement matter? I don't want a slow acting carb when I am about to lift necessarily - I want a fast acting one. I get the concept of sustained energy - but it does not 'do it for me'. It also depends on your reaction to blood sugar variability. I actually get sluggish with slow acting carbs more than with fast acting ones from what I can tell (although I don't really pay it much attention to be honest).
I agree 100%.
Try cramming a ton of complex carbs down when your cals are near 4,000 Djinn. Not only does it get difficult to reach that eating number eating nutrient dense foods, but I'd rather go squat with two poptarts in my system as opposed to 800g of sweet potatoes or something.
I had oatmeal over the weekend before I was supposed to lift (as opposed to my usual quest bar or pop tart or fruit or whatever) - ended up napping instead lol.0 -
DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Maybe I'm not thinking this through at a higher level but are complex carbs really going to give us more energy while training?
Let's say we're comparing single source of food. We take a serving of whole grain bread and a serving of white bread, are we taking into consideration the necessary insulin spikes required for growth?
You're claiming you'd have more energy for daily activities and therefore a higher TDEE, what are we talking about in difference? 25, 50 calories?
Maybe you already did but can you explain this 1 to 1 ratio?
I'm multi tasking so my thoughts are jumbled, if you can follow great, if not let me know and I will rephrase.
I must admitt, I seem to get more energy for lifting from complex carbs too (I save the good stuff for after work and training). It might be psychosomatic, but it definitely happens with me too.
I think the 1:1 is fat to muscle?
@djinnmarie: PMd you, feel like I caused all this
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DjinnMarie wrote: »dieselbyte wrote: »DjinnMarie wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Bah, deleted. I'm not even going to bother.
I already saw it.
It's not that difficult. Choosing complex carbs over simple carbs gives me more sustained energy. (Scientifically proven) Which means more productive workouts in the gym. I don't fatigue as quickly. More lifting = more muscle growth.
The sustained energy and less of a blood sugar drop also gives me more energy and less fatigue for daily activities. Would this not equate to a higher tdee and therefore less fat gain?
All of this gives ME better results and is the easiest way for me to get the desired 1 to 1 ratio.
Whatever floats your boat (seems more mental than anything though)... As stated earlier, you cannot alter your p-ratio. Genetics determines fat and muscle gain, not macros. You may THINK you are close to a 1:1 ratio, but unless you've done a dscan over points in your bulk, you have no way of knowing.
You forgot to mention that Your P ratio isn't 100% genetic. 15-20% of your p ratio is determined by how you eat, how you train etc.
If macros had nothing to do with your p ratio, then theoretically none of would be worried about our protein intake and could just bulk on carbs.
No, the primary determinant of P ratio is genetics (overall physiology and body fat percentage). Training and diet plays a role for sure, but the point is you aren't gaining more muscle because you choose complex carbs over simple carbs (when I stated macros, I meant make-up of particular macros - in this case carbs). Again, your argument seems largely psychosomatic...0 -
DjinnMarie wrote: »In the high carb/low fat vs. low carb/high fat debate here is a study that is worth a read that supports high carb for the purpose of bulking:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20489032.
I agree that you should do what works best individually and if high fat gets you to your goals, then have at it. But carbs are the preferential energy source of the body and are very, very rarely converted to fat through de nova lipogenesis (at least in humans).
I'm not anti carb. I'm pro complex carb. Sweets are not complex carbs.
Speaking anecdotally, if I switch my whole grain bread to cookies, keeping calories constant, my lifts suffer. When I'm cutting, keeping all activity the same (running on a treadmill at the same speed for the same distance) and calories the same, if I were to switch my whole grain toast to a cookie, I lose less fat. (I still lose weight, just not as much). I can't control for lifts while in a calorie deficit since my lifts always suffer while cutting. But they seem to suffer MORE when I choose sweets over toast. I understand that correlation is not causation and there may be other factors that indeed may be all in my head, but I doubt it.
Simply stated... I get better results from bulking and cutting when I get my calories from mainly complex carbs over simple carbs. Take from that what you will.
Changing out whole grain bread for cookies Also adds extra fat to your day, which is a definite confounder when trying to specifically blame the carbs.
As for macros affecting TDEE. That's a completely insignificant amount. Higher carb diets will have a higher TDEE than a lower carb diet, due to carbs requiring more calories to digest than fat, but even then, going from an extremely high carb diet to an extremely low carb diet, you're talking a difference of a couple dozen calories. It's not going to make any kind of difference, in all reality, as the nutritional information that we base our calories in numbers on can't be that precise.0 -
You forgot to mention that Your P ratio isn't 100% genetic. 15-20% of your p ratio is determined by how you eat, how you train etc.
If macros had nothing to do with your p ratio, then theoretically none of would be worried about our protein intake and could just bulk on carbs.
[/quote]
No, the primary determinant of P ratio is genetics (overall physiology and body fat percentage). Training and diet plays a role for sure, but the point is you aren't gaining more muscle because you choose complex carbs over simple carbs (when I stated macros, I meant make-up of particular macros - in this case carbs). Again, your argument seems largely psychosomatic...[/quote]
It is questionable whether or not training and diet have any appreciable effect on P-ratio. It is genetic and factors such as leanness may change how efficient your personal P-ratio is, you can't manipulate the effect. Simply put, YOU cannot cause your body to change the way it stores fat and muscle to any appreciable degree without certain drugs. If someone has a study showing otherwise, please submit it.0 -
This thread made me go make homemade brownies: nothing but butter, sugar, flour, chocolate, chocolate chips, eggs and a little vanilla and salt with homemade buttercream chocolate frosting.
THANK YOU!0 -
Nice. I haven't made them for myself in a long time, but may consider doing so again not far into the future.nicsflyingcircus wrote: »This thread made me go make homemade brownies: nothing but butter, sugar, flour, chocolate, chocolate chips, eggs and a little vanilla and salt with homemade buttercream chocolate frosting.
THANK YOU!
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Nice. I haven't made them for myself in a long time, but may consider doing so again not far into the future.nicsflyingcircus wrote: »This thread made me go make homemade brownies: nothing but butter, sugar, flour, chocolate, chocolate chips, eggs and a little vanilla and salt with homemade buttercream chocolate frosting.
THANK YOU!
My 9yo declared them "The best brownies I have ever eaten!" lol. I'll take it.
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This discussion has been closed.
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