Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat
Replies
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Yep. Measurements don't drop very fast either. It's watching for the little things like a vein, a bump, an indent or anything that shows there's something happening.7 -
Great information.
Thanks, usmcmp!!
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I have reached my desired body weight; mostly thru weight training followed by cardio 2-3 times a week. I do want to reduce my body fat so going to give recomp a try. Thanks for the info.3
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I am glad you posted this as I feel I have lost (9 months at maintenance/lifting) and my clothing is smaller and people comment that I am smaller but measurements stayed pretty much the same...
I realized earlier this year that the standard measurement spots are pretty vague and definitely not very comprehensive when it comes to determining if one is losing fat or gaining muscle. I was tailoring a shirt pattern to fit me better and it hit me that I was having to take several extra circumference measurements to make sure the shirt would hang over my chub without catching, and looking at my progress photos showed me that if I had been measuring over the 'spare tire' all along I would have been measuring where a bunch of my weight had come off! Instead I had just been doing the basic spots that are always suggested (natural waist, hips, thigh, bicep). I now also measure around just below my navel, the bra band (I don't have hardly any fat on the front of my ribs there, and every time it drops I can see my back has trimmed up some in the photos), and on my arms in the little gap just below the deltoid/above the bicep (it's the least muscular part of the arm, so it's really just measuring bingo wing and a bit of tricep). A really good clothing tailor takes even more measurements than that, and measures the front and back of the torso separately, to get a very clear picture of how a person's body is shaped, but I'm not quite that motivated since I'm still a good 20lbs from considering going from trimming to recomp.8 -
Thanks @usmcmp - great thread.
I still haven't decided on whether recomping is for me, I have either 3 or 10 lb (depending on ease of cut/appearance/strength) to go before I decide. I love the idea of recomping for a year or so, to give it a real chance to compare to bulk/cut cycles (last attempt I only lasted 3 months) but bulking again is just sooo tempting.
Reading about the great results others have had definitely makes it more appealing. Following to help in the decision making process.1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
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Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
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For those of you have have done significant recomps... can you talk a bit about progress over time? Specifically things like how you evaluated your progress, when you saw changes in how clothes fit, when you saw changes in how you looked in the mirror, etc.
When bulking or cutting, once you get past the initial learning curve phase, progress is fairly easy to track/see. That's not as much the case with recomping, and that can be a challenge mentally/emotionally for many. It might be good for people to see others' experiences with this so they have some context for what to expect (or not to expect).
I wouldn't call mine "significant" but I'll chime in anyway.
I wasn't originally doing anything specifically to evaluate my progress, since one of my primary objectives was to increase bone density and that's invisible without medical testing. So just pretty random observations. My change in measurements was based on an old set I'd plunked into MFP probably about a year earlier, I just happened to notice over time (maybe 6 months or so?) that my pants seemed to be getting looser. About 3 months into lifting, I had to pick up something heavy in a store and realized it was pretty easy... it was a weight I would have struggled with before. So I reasoned I had acquired some muscle.
I'd say it took about 5 or 6 months before I started noticing any visible muscle definition in the mirror. My SO claimed he could see new muscles a bit earlier, however he may just have been supportive/encouraging with that. BUT -- a caveat -- I started out pretty lean at around 18% - 18.5% BF and am currently 17%, so I may have seen it sooner than someone with higher BF% would. My impression of my starting point is that I had relatively low BF% but also VERY low muscle.
Sorry, I'm not very helpful; I wasn't ever really tracking anything, I was just aiming for "improvement". (If I feel brave, I might post some pics later.) I didn't go the bulking route because I doubted my ability to build any significant muscle, given my genetics/hormones/age, and my diet can be pretty erratic at times.3 -
There's a lot of talk about recomposition through the boards, so I wanted to have a place where we can compile research on it and experiences with it.
When is recomp appropriate? When you are at a decent weight for your height, but your body fat is still at a level that is undesirable to you recomposition is probably a good option. It's a way to maintain your weight, eat well and still lose fat. This is a slow process and can feel like spinning your wheels, but it can be less mentally stressful than bulk and cut cycles.
The keys to recomposition are:
1. At the end of the week you have eaten at about your TDEE. You may choose to cycle calories or eat at a flat rate every day, there are studies that support both, but start with personal preference. If you have a consistent workout schedule using a TDEE calculator should place your goal fairly close to your actual maintenance. The only way to know for sure is to monitor your weight and calories over time while adjusting calories when you have an up or down trend.
2. Getting adequate protein. Protein is a building block of muscle. The goal of recomposition is to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Protein, carbohydrates and fats play different roles in the muscle building process, so make sure that you keep to a macronutrient set up that works for you. This may need to be adjusted over time.
3. Lift! Following a good lifting program is the key to the entire process. It's where the magic happens. Pick a program that you will enjoy and that is going to challenge you. Continue to focus on improving.
4. Take pictures and measure. It's a slow process and you may feel you are making no progress. Your measurements will help you see that you are making progress.
Feel free to share stories of recomposition and any research you have seen on it. Ask questions if you have any.
I've actually been very curious about the bolded part for a while now. Do you mind linking whatever studies you've come across on this? I'd be interested in seeing what if any differences were noted. Thanks!
Apologies if you already posted them, I only read the first page of the thread before posting.
I posted some in another thread, let me see if I can find it.
I found this study, but it wasn't recomposition. I will keep looking for the ones that I posted.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x/abstract;jsessionid=6DBE313026EAAB4F827222DFF90314DA.f02t04
If you can find them, that would be great. There are differing 'schools of thought' that I have seen on this but have not seen any studies. I would be very interested in seeing them (genuine interest, unlike certain others
) as the steady v varying intake comes up quite a bit.
Will try to find the full text of the one you linked - the concept of FFM retention could be due to timing of calories around training sessions, and as a result, more effective training (i.e. more LBM retention) - but on a cut, you have less calories to play with and as such, timing of meals is more important, as compared to maintenance so I would conjecture that this holds less true. However, I am assuming here, so as I say, will try to find the full text.0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
very true...0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
I face the same challenges you do with fluctuating health problems causing issues with being able to have consistent exercise, and I don't see the problem.
Collect your data over a long time. Average it out. You can calculate your own TDEE. Tweak as needed.
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Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
I am much less accurate when maintaining (in fact, I do not track at all currently) - as SideSteel says, you can just tweak if you are gaining/losing. Macros accuracy also plays a more important role imo. Less calories means that you have less 'play' with protein and fats. When cutting, I want to keep these more on point - plus you have a greater protein requirement when cutting.
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Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.1 -
There's a lot of talk about recomposition through the boards, so I wanted to have a place where we can compile research on it and experiences with it.
When is recomp appropriate? When you are at a decent weight for your height, but your body fat is still at a level that is undesirable to you recomposition is probably a good option. It's a way to maintain your weight, eat well and still lose fat. This is a slow process and can feel like spinning your wheels, but it can be less mentally stressful than bulk and cut cycles.
The keys to recomposition are:
1. At the end of the week you have eaten at about your TDEE. You may choose to cycle calories or eat at a flat rate every day, there are studies that support both, but start with personal preference. If you have a consistent workout schedule using a TDEE calculator should place your goal fairly close to your actual maintenance. The only way to know for sure is to monitor your weight and calories over time while adjusting calories when you have an up or down trend.
2. Getting adequate protein. Protein is a building block of muscle. The goal of recomposition is to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Protein, carbohydrates and fats play different roles in the muscle building process, so make sure that you keep to a macronutrient set up that works for you. This may need to be adjusted over time.
3. Lift! Following a good lifting program is the key to the entire process. It's where the magic happens. Pick a program that you will enjoy and that is going to challenge you. Continue to focus on improving.
4. Take pictures and measure. It's a slow process and you may feel you are making no progress. Your measurements will help you see that you are making progress.
Feel free to share stories of recomposition and any research you have seen on it. Ask questions if you have any.
I've actually been very curious about the bolded part for a while now. Do you mind linking whatever studies you've come across on this? I'd be interested in seeing what if any differences were noted. Thanks!
Apologies if you already posted them, I only read the first page of the thread before posting.
I posted some in another thread, let me see if I can find it.
I found this study, but it wasn't recomposition. I will keep looking for the ones that I posted.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x/abstract;jsessionid=6DBE313026EAAB4F827222DFF90314DA.f02t04
If you can find them, that would be great. There are differing 'schools of thought' that I have seen on this but have not seen any studies. I would be very interested in seeing them (genuine interest, unlike certain others ) as the steady v varying intake comes up quite a bit.
Will try to find the full text of the one you linked - the concept of FFM retention could be due to timing of calories around training sessions, and as a result, more effective training (i.e. more LBM retention) - but on a cut, you have less calories to play with and as such, timing of meals is more important, as compared to maintenance so I would conjecture that this holds less true. However, I am assuming here, so as I say, will try to find the full text.
I forgot all about looking when the thread blew up yesterday. I will look when I have a chance today.
Your mention of timing around training reminds me of the section in this (I linked it yesterday): http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20
It's about cutting and pertains to people on the low end of the body fat spectrum, but I do wonder if nutrient timing is less important for someone who isn't close to being competition lean. Either way, as you know, individual preference and adherence is far more important than sticking with ideals.
The full article from what I linked above is here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x/full1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
I face the same challenges you do with fluctuating health problems causing issues with being able to have consistent exercise, and I don't see the problem.
Collect your data over a long time. Average it out. You can calculate your own TDEE. Tweak as needed.
That's what I did. In the beginning I had already been logging and losing weight for 2 years on and off so I had a decent idea of what my maintenance should be. There have been times I've been consistently at the top of my maintenance range and times when I've been consistently at the bottom (or even a little under). I just adjust as needed, although it seems to balance out more or less on its own.0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
I would agree with this, based on my own experience. Although arguably I might have done better if my diet had been tighter.
Basically, my life goes like this -- for two weeks when my SO is doing the cooking, I eat at a bit of a surplus (with adequate protein). For the next two weeks, when I have to do my own cooking, I'm eating at maintenance or a bit of a deficit (with occasionally inadequate protein, although I'm getting better about that). This has apparently balanced out to exactly "maintenance" for me, even though it's the sloppiest diet ever.2 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.
good point...0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.
You're talking simple weight. We then add in resistance training, which is an important factor in recomp. That changes conditions.0 -
There's a lot of talk about recomposition through the boards, so I wanted to have a place where we can compile research on it and experiences with it.
When is recomp appropriate? When you are at a decent weight for your height, but your body fat is still at a level that is undesirable to you recomposition is probably a good option. It's a way to maintain your weight, eat well and still lose fat. This is a slow process and can feel like spinning your wheels, but it can be less mentally stressful than bulk and cut cycles.
The keys to recomposition are:
1. At the end of the week you have eaten at about your TDEE. You may choose to cycle calories or eat at a flat rate every day, there are studies that support both, but start with personal preference. If you have a consistent workout schedule using a TDEE calculator should place your goal fairly close to your actual maintenance. The only way to know for sure is to monitor your weight and calories over time while adjusting calories when you have an up or down trend.
2. Getting adequate protein. Protein is a building block of muscle. The goal of recomposition is to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Protein, carbohydrates and fats play different roles in the muscle building process, so make sure that you keep to a macronutrient set up that works for you. This may need to be adjusted over time.
3. Lift! Following a good lifting program is the key to the entire process. It's where the magic happens. Pick a program that you will enjoy and that is going to challenge you. Continue to focus on improving.
4. Take pictures and measure. It's a slow process and you may feel you are making no progress. Your measurements will help you see that you are making progress.
Feel free to share stories of recomposition and any research you have seen on it. Ask questions if you have any.
I've actually been very curious about the bolded part for a while now. Do you mind linking whatever studies you've come across on this? I'd be interested in seeing what if any differences were noted. Thanks!
Apologies if you already posted them, I only read the first page of the thread before posting.
I posted some in another thread, let me see if I can find it.
I found this study, but it wasn't recomposition. I will keep looking for the ones that I posted.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x/abstract;jsessionid=6DBE313026EAAB4F827222DFF90314DA.f02t04
If you can find them, that would be great. There are differing 'schools of thought' that I have seen on this but have not seen any studies. I would be very interested in seeing them (genuine interest, unlike certain others ) as the steady v varying intake comes up quite a bit.
Will try to find the full text of the one you linked - the concept of FFM retention could be due to timing of calories around training sessions, and as a result, more effective training (i.e. more LBM retention) - but on a cut, you have less calories to play with and as such, timing of meals is more important, as compared to maintenance so I would conjecture that this holds less true. However, I am assuming here, so as I say, will try to find the full text.
I forgot all about looking when the thread blew up yesterday. I will look when I have a chance today.
Your mention of timing around training reminds me of the section in this (I linked it yesterday): http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20
It's about cutting and pertains to people on the low end of the body fat spectrum, but I do wonder if nutrient timing is less important for someone who isn't close to being competition lean. Either way, as you know, individual preference and adherence is far more important than sticking with ideals.
The full article from what I linked above is here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x/full
Thanks - will check them out - and werd to the bolded!0 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
I face the same challenges you do with fluctuating health problems causing issues with being able to have consistent exercise, and I don't see the problem.
Collect your data over a long time. Average it out. You can calculate your own TDEE. Tweak as needed.
That's what I did. In the beginning I had already been logging and losing weight for 2 years on and off so I had a decent idea of what my maintenance should be. There have been times I've been consistently at the top of my maintenance range and times when I've been consistently at the bottom (or even a little under). I just adjust as needed, although it seems to balance out more or less on its own.
I was thinking of you earlier, because I wanted to ask you... does your condition sometimes interfere with your training? If so, what how do you feel that affects your progression with strength gains?
Your results are inspiring.
0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.
You're talking simple weight. We then add in resistance training, which is an important factor in recomp. That changes conditions.
I don't see how it changes conditions in reference to the above because you are also resistance training when you cut and bulk.
In the context of this post, the only thing we are talking about is state of energy balance and whether or not that changes the degree of accuracy you need with respect to matching calories in to calories out.0 -
This just arrived in my email. I skimmed it and didn't see any links to studies on calorie cycling (his suggestion).
http://evidencemag.com/minimalist-recomposition?__s=wyzycccxsoaihk2xqsw71 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.
You're talking simple weight. We then add in resistance training, which is an important factor in recomp. That changes conditions.
I don't see how it changes conditions in reference to the above because you are also resistance training when you cut and bulk.
In the context of this post, the only thing we are talking about is state of energy balance and whether or not that changes the degree of accuracy you need with respect to matching calories in to calories out.
Maybe I misread, it just seemed like for the maintenance section you weren't including the influence of lifting. Probably my bad.0 -
Just for what it's worth I don't think you necessarily need to be any more or less accurate when maintaining then you do during a cut or a bulk. The only difference would be that if you're less accurate you might not actually maintain weight, but if you are still making adjustments to intake based on results then you're doing the same thing you would/should be doing during a cut or a bulk.
interesting.
I assumed you had to be more accurate during recomp because you would not want to gain too much, or lose too much ...but I guess you can adjust on the fly as the scale dictates? Where as, on a bulk you have more calories to play with so it is ok to overshoot a tad and not be as accurate? Or maybe this is all just hogwash that I have come up with..? LOL
What I'm getting at is this in a more general sense:
Your body doesn't know that you're in a deficit or maintenance or a surplus. It just digests the food that you eat and it puts those nutrients somewhere. Now if you happen to continually eat fewer calories then you expend then you gradually lose body fat and possibly muscle proteins depending on a number of factors and the opposite holds true if over time, you gradually consume more calories then you expend.
But it's not some sort of thing that happens acutely.
In response to your quote -- if you overeat a bit on a bulk you get fatter faster. If you overeat during intended maintenance you don't maintain, you slowly gain. If you undereat on a bulk you don't gain as fast or don't gain at all and if you undereat during maintenance you slowly lose.
In all of these conditions you slightly miss the mark and the result you get is slightly off from what you aimed to hit. And you adjust to that by making changes to intake to try to get you to the intention you had, whether that's a given rate of loss, a given rate of gain, or no change in weight.
You're talking simple weight. We then add in resistance training, which is an important factor in recomp. That changes conditions.
I don't see how it changes conditions in reference to the above because you are also resistance training when you cut and bulk.
In the context of this post, the only thing we are talking about is state of energy balance and whether or not that changes the degree of accuracy you need with respect to matching calories in to calories out.
Maybe I misread, it just seemed like for the maintenance section you weren't including the influence of lifting. Probably my bad.
No worries.
My point with everything previously is that it's not like maintenance is some magical number where now you suddenly have to be 100% precise with all your tracking and absolutely nail down your intake.
So for example if you're cutting at 200 calories below TDEE and you have some theoretical x% wiggle room, it's not like that wiggle room suddenly vanishes when you decide to eat another 200 calories.
1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
I face the same challenges you do with fluctuating health problems causing issues with being able to have consistent exercise, and I don't see the problem.
Collect your data over a long time. Average it out. You can calculate your own TDEE. Tweak as needed.
That's what I did. In the beginning I had already been logging and losing weight for 2 years on and off so I had a decent idea of what my maintenance should be. There have been times I've been consistently at the top of my maintenance range and times when I've been consistently at the bottom (or even a little under). I just adjust as needed, although it seems to balance out more or less on its own.
I was thinking of you earlier, because I wanted to ask you... does your condition sometimes interfere with your training? If so, what how do you feel that affects your progression with strength gains?
Your results are inspiring.
Aww thanks.
And yes. I have two main limiting factors-- pain and fatigue. My illness tends to be a bit cyclical. I'll feel great for awhile and want to run and lift and do all the things, and then I'll feel myself starting to get worn down and tired, and then I'll have a flare up where I'm constantly exhausted and everything hurts. I'll rest more during those times and often lift less weight, and eventually it'll pass and I'll be back to feeling good again.
As a result of that process I'm behind a lot of women who have been lifting has long as I have. The biggest thing for me is to try my best not to compare myself to them too much. If I push harder I'll make more progress at first, but then I'll bring on a flare up faster and end up out of commission for longer.
This past year I've been dealing with a new illness (myasthenia gravis most likely) that causes muscle weakness. My muscles in my arms/legs felt weak but I also had a lot of trouble breathing and I had double vision a lot. So there were a few months there where I was lucky to get in my major lifts with light weight. I just keep on trucking and do the best I can as consistently as I can.6 -
This is all really helpful information (even though I haven't completely read through the whole thread yet), that I intend to look back on for future use.
I just wanted to share my journey so far as well.
I'm currently only 3 and half months in to my recomp, so I'm still learning what is going to work best for me, but I have seen some small results. I measure every two weeks and weigh myself daily to monitor fluctuations, but I only record it (on MFP) once a month. My only means to measure BF% is based on my measurements, which I know isn't accurate but it's the best I have for now, plus I believe the average I have is pretty close (and I can't afford to pay for a more accurate measure).
Close to the end of February (when I first decided to do a recomp) my stats were: waist-26.5, hips-35, neck-13.5, thighs-20, arms(biceps)-9, and weight-111. Estimated BF: 22.3 - 23%
By the end of March my stats were: waist-25, hips-34, neck-13, thighs-19, arms-9, and weight-110. Estimated BF: 21.5 - 22%
Currently my stats (measured 5/31/15) are: waist-25, hips-32, neck-12, thighs-19, arms-10.5, and weight 109.5. Estimated BF: 19.5 - 21%
I have been noticing slight up and down trends in my biweekly measurements and based on my daily weigh ins I'm fluctuating between 108-110.5lbs (5'0" BTW). I'd like to be closer to 105 but I actually don't mind being at the weight I'm at now though.
I literally started at the very bottom when I started lifting (only 5 to 10 lb weights, I know I was weak) but I've slowly progressed and I'm happy to say that I'm lifting 20-25 lbs more now and continuing to progress every few weeks.
Ok, well I'm going to go back to the beginning now and start taking some notes. Again great thread, thanks @usmcmp for creating this. 6 -
Yea, I don't think you have to be all that accurate. I fluctuate all the time. Sometimes normal fluctuations, sometimes cause I felt like I wanted 1100 calories of red velvet cake, and sometimes cause I eat/drink to many calories for a few days. I just adjust and move on.
I follow the KISS method and it works just fine.3 -
There is no average in my life style unless I'm walking with a cane and things are still. When healthy I could be burning zero cals one week from exercise and over 10,000 the following. Same goes with my work, I have a one of the most physicals jobs, but some weeks I only expend 10% of the previous weeks energy. When I was on a recomp, that is just too much of a difference for me to adhere to an "average" and expect results. On a bulk I can get away with "dirty bulk" during a "clean bulk cylcle" and not even have to think twice about it or even log it. I will get results, recomp you don't want to add fat, while bulking you get away with it.mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
I face the same challenges you do with fluctuating health problems causing issues with being able to have consistent exercise, and I don't see the problem.
Collect your data over a long time. Average it out. You can calculate your own TDEE. Tweak as needed.
1 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I've tried the recomp a couple times & it was just more of a mind fudge to me then bulk/cut cycles.
I'm a guy who at times does extreme physical exercises just from a compulsive thought. I deal with a joint problems from a disease and when my body is feeling well enough I tend try to get it in when I can. With recomp my mind tends to over think how much exercise I can do or even more how much I should eat because I'm either more active or less active. Therefore my calories are all over the board. With a bulk/cut cycles I find it easier to correct my calorie over/under consumption.
It causes stress which in turn causes more pain throughout my body. I wish it didn't. I applaud everybody who is able to recomp as its a very useful tool for many people, its just not for me.
Well, this raises a question for me, because that describes my situation as well. I also think it would be a problem were I to do bulking/cutting, though.
I'm not really sure how I plan to address calorie intake when I get to the point of recomp. Thoughts?
well in my experience, by the time you get to whether you want to bulk/cut or recomp you pretty much have your maintenance number pegged. I know that I maintain at right around 2600 to 2700 calories a week. so when I went into bulk mode I bumped up to 2900 and waited a week, checked the scale, and then increased or decreased as needed.
Honestly, it comes down to playing with the numbers and trial and error. I think you have a little more leeway when doing a bulk, because if you over shoot your numbers then you should still be OK. My basic understanding of recomp is that you would have to be more strict and accurate with your intake and logging.
Hence my problem, my activity level is all over the place. When you factor in my random physical activities that I partake in or might not at all, its nearly impossible to account strictly what my calorie intake should be even on average per week basis. My activity is too much like a yo-yo for a limited structure of accounting for cals.
If I eat over cals on a bulk or even on a deficit for that matter, I can easily correct that when i go on a cut.
Same thing goes if I under eat under on a bulk or deficit.
I like to have more flexibility in my activity as well as diet. Which allows me to adhere to my diet and goals. The whole point is for everybody to find a diet/activity level that allows them to endure it for a long period of time. Recomp is for some.
My intake and exercise has enormous variations too and it hasn't hindered me. My daily calories vary from 650 to 5000+, my exercise varies from none to 7+hrs.
Our bodies are more adaptable than we give them credit for.
But I also don't see my weight as needing to be micro managed either. My nominal maintenance weight is 164lbs with 168lbs as a "watch it, you are letting things slide" threshold but it jumps around a lot day to day.
Before a big event I will drop a few pounds to make the hills a little easier.
One of the keys to happy maintenance for me is allowing some flexibility but everyone reacts differently to what they see on the scales. I tend to laugh when I see a 5lb gain following a day with a calorie deficit but I'm a bit weird!
Totally agree that what works for some would cause stress to others - there's no one size fits all approach for adherence.2
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